Speech pattern and typographical variations across Canada

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

It has nothing to do with how proper the non-native speaker is speaking. Rather, I think it's about tentativeness and cadence on the part of non-native speakers, who often hesitate and speak more slowly.

I always find Haitians in Montreal much easier to understand than native Quebeckers. Their pronunciations are just easier for me to understand. What's probably amusing to Quebeckers is as I come into more contact with Haitians (in taxis, etc.) I begin to unconsciously emulate the way they speak. I seem to fall into that naturally.

My Spanish is passably serviceable, but I can't understand Spaniards for the life of me. They speak crazy fast and lisp TH's into everything. I learned my Spanish in Mexico, which is legendary in the Spanish-speaking world for sounding like Speedy Gonzales.

Spaniards sound like this piss-take in the Catherine Tate Show:

In order, last night the Italian lady was the easiest to follow in Spanish, followed by the Spaniard (even though I am not fond of the TH thing either - I mostly learned Latin American Spanish) and then Ricky Martin.

I suspect Puerto Rican Spanish is likely the Quebec French of the Spanish-speaking world. It's rubbed shoulders with English a lot through the semi-colonization of the island by the Americans, and the back and forth between the U.S. and the island by migrants who were influenced by English on the mainland. In addition to having a lot of its own eccentricities.

I also could sense that Ricky Martin was slightly more hesitant in his Spanish than the Spaniard. He didn't use any overt anglicisms that I could easily pick up on, but he seemed to be searching for his words every once in a while. Kind of typical I guess for someone who I would assume has spent a lot of time in the US during his entire adult life (and maybe lives there full time), speaking mostly in English.

Again, he kind of reminded me of a Québécois who's been living in Calgary or LA for the past 25 years. The French and even the accent are still there, but it's not quite the same...

[Acajack]

And I guess the Spanish spoken by Hispanics born and raised in the U.S. is the equivalent to the French spoken by Franco-Ontarians or Chiac in SE NB.

[GlassCity]

I definitely had an easier time understanding my teachers in high school than when I was in Quebec or France. Watching the debates this year too, I could understand everybody perfectly, except Gilles Duceppe who I had to concentrate on to be able to pick out all the words.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Oh, I wasn't suggesting that at all. And I speak from lots of personal experience with that very issue in both official languages.

I was simply talking about ease of understanding. My Spanish isn't nearly good enough to pick out mistakes in other people's Spanish.

Sorry, I was making a tangential observation, another factor which could make native speakers harder to understand. The ease of understanding more slowly or carefully spoken language wasn't lost on me.

^ rousseau that clip is hilarious.

[SignalHillHiker]

"Lots of swearing allegiance to the Queen's hairs and ears in the House today"

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfou...erts-1.3366451

[SignalHillHiker]

A really good stereotypical mainland accent. Almost as strong as one of Ayreonaut's relatives I heard.

https://www.facebook.com/14208191514...8099192771419/

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

A really good stereotypical mainland accent. Almost as strong as one of Ayreonaut's relatives I heard.

https://www.facebook.com/14208191514...8099192771419/

What do you mean "mainland"? Mainland China?

This is a hoser accent from small town and/or rural Ontario. Not "mainland," whatever that means. I think any Maritime person would immediately know it's not from the Maritimes, and I don't think you hear it like this in the Prairies, as best I can tell. It seems pretty rural Ontario-specific.

What's interesting is that it didn't sound all that far-out or far-fetched to me, which is a definite indication that I hear rural people around where I live sounding like that. Not a lot, really, but it's definitely there. Though he sounds like an older person to me, and that might be a part of the fun of it, as with older people you get the added bonus of inflections and usages that are no longer so current.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by rousseau

What do you mean "mainland"? Mainland China?

This is a hoser accent from small town and/or rural Ontario. Not "mainland," whatever that means. I think any Maritime person would immediately know it's not from the Maritimes, and I don't think you hear it like this in the Prairies, as best I can tell. It seems pretty rural Ontario-specific.

What's interesting is that it didn't sound all that far-out or far-fetched to me, which is a definite indication that I hear rural people around where I live sounding like that. Not a lot, really, but it's definitely there. Though he sounds like an older person to me, and that might be a part of the fun of it, as with older people you get the added bonus of inflections and usages that are no longer so current.

I actually thought it sounded less than full-on hoser, except maybe for the chap Mike - I'd need to hear a bit more from him. I also thought they spoke a bit more slowly than I would expect of Ontarians, although that might be because they were being recorded. To me it sounded fairly "normal", completely normal in the case of the women, althought they didn't really say much.

[SignalHillHiker]

Mainland just means "Rest of Canada". It's a common term here:



It can be broader than that... but usually it's specifically Canada. Most people would say "Away" for another country.

*****

I just meant the accent sounds stereotypically "Rest of Canada" to me. I assume I'm not the only one, since that's how it's labelled by the people posting/sharing that video. There are lots of different accents there but a lot of the vowel sounds and the way he goes up in random places are pretty universal on the mainland. Especially when Mike says "island". He goes up in the S.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by rousseau

What do you mean "mainland"? Mainland China?

This is a hoser accent from small town and/or rural Ontario. Not "mainland," whatever that means. I think any Maritime person would immediately know it's not from the Maritimes, and I don't think you hear it like this in the Prairies, as best I can tell. It seems pretty rural Ontario-specific.

What's interesting is that it didn't sound all that far-out or far-fetched to me, which is a definite indication that I hear rural people around where I live sounding like that. Not a lot, really, but it's definitely there. Though he sounds like an older person to me, and that might be a part of the fun of it, as with older people you get the added bonus of inflections and usages that are no longer so current.

Is the Newfie accent distinct enough that all "mainlanders", from BC to the Maritimes via rural Prairies, small town Ontario "hosers", Anglo Quebeckers living on the US border, northern aboriginals, etc. all sound approximately the same to them?

I would doubt it... therefore, I postulate that "standard mainland accent" is a bogus concept. Instead, I guess it's more like "you don't sound like us, so if you're a native English speaker, then you're from somewhere that's not on this island, wherever it is."

Feel free to correct me, of course.

[SignalHillHiker]

You've explained it better than I could, Lio.

*****

Watching Mrs. Brown's Boys clips on YouTube (Irish). The accent is very different from any of ours, but the flow, tone, and expressions are the same. They even do past tense the same way ("I'm after doing that").

Found another one in common. They use "Sure" as a filler word the same way we do, and pronounce it the same way.

• Video Link

I bet it's common somewhere in the Maritimes too?

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

Mainland just means "Rest of Canada". It's a common term here:

I'm not understanding this of the word "mainland." You're lumping 99% of a 35 million-strong country into the category "mainland" when nobody in that 99% would ever use that term or have a clue what you're talking about?

1.3 billion mainland Chinese know the term "mainland" because 1.3 billion Chinese are intimately familiar with the history and connotations of the term, and it has a provenance that has leaked into English such that, lacking any other context, in English it is generally understood to mean "mainland China."

Not "mainland Canada," whatever that means. Canada has many offshore islands. Using the term "mainland" to mean "anywhere outside of Newfoundland" makes zero sense to people living "anywhere outside of Newfoundland." Why on earth would you use this term on a site like this?

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

I just meant the accent sounds stereotypically "Rest of Canada" to me. I assume I'm not the only one, since that's how it's labelled by the people posting/sharing that video. There are lots of different accents there but a lot of the vowel sounds and the way he goes up in random places are pretty universal on the mainland. Especially when Mike says "island". He goes up in the S.

Canada is pretty unique for not having many huge differences in accents across such large geographical area, including Newfoundland (which is certainly uniquely different, but it's nowhere near like the differences you encounter driving an hour somewhere in the UK, say). I'm starting to think that this hoser thing really is mostly rural Ontario.

Though then again, you've got the hoserific examples of baitcar.com and that pseudodocumentary in Alberta where they say "give'er." So I don't know. It's hard to draw definite lines on the map for accents in Canada.

[SignalHillHiker]

Originally Posted by rousseau

I'm not understanding this of the word "mainland." You're lumping 99% of a 35 million-strong country into the category "mainland" when nobody in that 99% would ever use that term or have a clue what you're talking about?

1.3 billion mainland Chinese know the term "mainland" because 1.3 billion Chinese are intimately familiar with the history and connotations of the term, and it has a provenance that has leaked into English such that, lacking any other context, in English it is generally understood to mean "mainland China."

Not "mainland Canada," whatever that means. Canada has many offshore islands. Using the term "mainland" to mean "anywhere outside of Newfoundland" makes zero sense to people living "anywhere outside of Newfoundland." Why on earth would you use this term on a site like this?

Hmm... I never realized people didn't understand what it meant. I'm sure I've used it often around mainlanders and here while seemingly being understood. I imagine they use it, and with the same meaning, in Prince Edward Island, Vancouver Island, etc. as well. I don't get the impression that it's a term most people don't understand.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

Hmm... I never realized people didn't understand what it meant. I'm sure I've used it often around mainlanders and here while seemingly being understood. I imagine they use it, and with the same meaning, in Prince Edward Island, Vancouver Island, etc. as well. I don't get the impression that it's a term most people don't understand.

Free of any context, if you suddenly used the term "mainland" people would be puzzled and think you might be talking about mainland China. I mean, obviously I knew that's not what you meant in your post, but still, it sounds really odd. There are many islands offshore, and none of them are more than sparsely populated. If Newfoundland had 10 million people, well, then maybe we'd be using or at least hearing the term more. The term "the continent" to mean "continental Europe" means something because of the UK. It wouldn't be a thing if all you had was Jersey off the coast of France.

Tangentially, I recently met a guy in his twenties who'd spent his formative years in St. John's. We got to talking, and he mentioned that he'd been "up here" for five years now, and at first I was confused. "Up here in Kitchener as opposed to, erm...Windsor? Or the US?" I actually asked him if he'd lived in the US, and then it was his turn to look at me funny. It only later dawned on me that he'd meant that he'd left Newfoundland and come "up to Toronto and then Kitchener."

Which is peculiar, as we are a lot farther south than St. John's. It only seems reasonable to say "over here" or "over there" when you talk about anything cross-continental, because anything "up" or "down" outside of the context of Calgary and Edmonton or Regina and Saskatoon is Arctic.

[GlassCity]

Yeah, I definitely think that while the term is not particularly accurate, it's well understood (within this forum at least) and not really problematic. If in a specific place "mainland" has that meaning, I don't think it should be all that controversial. Here in Vancouver "out east" usually means Ontario, and I don't think that's a big deal either. Geography's always relative and it's nothing to get all that worked up over.

However, I do think it's strange to call something a "mainland accent," especially that one. I have never met anybody in person that actually talks like that, and in fact it's more typically considered stereotypical of "how people talk in the east," and I would bet many people I know would guess that those people were from Newfoundland. I know some people will disagree based on slight variations, but for the most part, the most accurate possible representation of what a typical Canadian sounds like would be any urban news program in North America.

[SignalHillHiker]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Tangentially, I recently met a guy in his twenties who'd spent his formative years in St. John's. We got to talking, and he mentioned that he'd been "up here" for five years now, and at first I was confused. "Up here in Kitchener as opposed to, erm...Windsor? Or the US?" I actually asked him if he'd lived in the US, and then it was his turn to look at me funny. It only later dawned on me that he'd meant that he'd left Newfoundland and come "up to Toronto and then Kitchener."

Ayreonaut has gotten mad at people here for that, including jeddy1989 and I. I'm not sure where it comes from... my best guess is that, in the past, people may have described going to Labrador during the fishing season as going to the mainland. Excluding that, everywhere we've ever had any sort of connection with on the mainland - no matter how weak or brief - has been south of us. The recent relationship with Alberta is probably the first in our history where going west has also meant going north.

There's a worse one as well. I've trained myself out of it online but quite a few people here, like my mother, still use Canada/Canadian to mean mainland/mainlander. "I've got a cousin coming down from Canada", etc. "She's living away now, her husband is Canadian, from Toronto", etc. It has nothing to do with separatism. They'll use the same terms to describe themselves, I'm sure. It's just a context thing.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Free of any context, if you suddenly used the term "mainland" people would be puzzled and think you might be talking about mainland China. I mean, obviously I knew that's not what you meant in your post, but still, it sounds really odd. There are many islands offshore, and none of them are more than sparsely populated. If Newfoundland had 10 million people, well, then maybe we'd be using or at least hearing the term more. The term "the continent" to mean "continental Europe" means something because of the UK. It wouldn't be a thing if all you had was Jersey off the coast of France.

Tangentially, I recently met a guy in his twenties who'd spent his formative years in St. John's. We got to talking, and he mentioned that he'd been "up here" for five years now, and at first I was confused. "Up here in Kitchener as opposed to, erm...Windsor? Or the US?" I actually asked him if he'd lived in the US, and then it was his turn to look at me funny. It only later dawned on me that he'd meant that he'd left Newfoundland and come "up to Toronto and then Kitchener."

Which is peculiar, as we are a lot farther south than St. John's. It only seems reasonable to say "over here" or "over there" when you talk about anything cross-continental, because anything "up" or "down" outside of the context of Calgary and Edmonton or Regina and Saskatoon is Arctic.

You're basing your statements on your experiences growing up in a specific place, and your terms are just as loaded with geographic bias as SHH's. For example, here the "mainland" is automatically presumed to mean "not Vancouver Island." And this is in a city where people are intimately familiar with the definition of mainland China too, however, it is not the go-to association. Specifically within this forum, I think SignalHillHiker has done enough to educate us about Newfoundland, or at least him, that we should mostly be pretty familiar what he means when he says it.

This is different from the "Toronto is on the east coast" conversation for example because the Newfoundland definition of "mainland" actually makes a large degree of sense. Just because it's not 100% accurate doesn't mean it can't be a useful term, especially to them.

Also, we use "up" and "down" here often as well. Someone in Vancouver could say they're moving up to Whitehorse, up to Kelowna, or even up to North Vancouver.

[lio45]

Interestingly enough, this standard dialect map (which I recall seeing here at least once already) has "Irish Newfoundland" as the only distinct area of English Canada.

http://aschmann.net/AmEng/#SmallMapCanada

[lio45]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Tangentially, I recently met a guy in his twenties who'd spent his formative years in St. John's. We got to talking, and he mentioned that he'd been "up here" for five years now, and at first I was confused. "Up here in Kitchener as opposed to, erm...Windsor? Or the US?" I actually asked him if he'd lived in the US, and then it was his turn to look at me funny. It only later dawned on me that he'd meant that he'd left Newfoundland and come "up to Toronto and then Kitchener."

Which is peculiar, as we are a lot farther south than St. John's. It only seems reasonable to say "over here" or "over there" when you talk about anything cross-continental, because anything "up" or "down" outside of the context of Calgary and Edmonton or Regina and Saskatoon is Arctic.

FYI, here in Quebec (in the Saint Lawrence Valley at least) the traditional way of speaking is to go up and down with elevation-i.e.-the-river.

From southern Quebec you go "down to Gaspé". From the Gaspé you go "up to Quebec City". From Quebec City you go "up to Montreal". Etc.

I would assume you could still go "up" the 401 following the string of Great Lakes in the upriver direction, all the way "up" to Detroit/Windsor. Can't say I recall hearing that, but that's because I don't recall hearing anyone speaking of driving through Ontario like that. If they did, I don't see why the same conventions wouldn't still hold.

So, from a traditional old-fashioned water-oriented way of speaking, that guy, who started at sea level in St. John's, did end up "up there" in the Great Lakes area. It does make sense, at least to me.

[SignalHillHiker]

Originally Posted by lio45

Interestingly enough, this standard dialect map (which I recall seeing here at least once already) has "Irish Newfoundland" as the only distinct area of English Canada.

http://aschmann.net/AmEng/#SmallMapCanada

It's a good map - but, of course, at this scale it's a little off... you'd be hard pressed to confuse someone from Labrador with someone from New Brunswick, for example. Most of the accents in Labrador never, ever pronounced "th". They can be sternly saying something slowly for emphasis, and it'll still be a "d". When Premier Ball was elected, MP Yvonne Jones introduced him. "DA MAN ON DA BALL!", every word seemingly 2 seconds long, still "d".

And I've heard somewhere, I imagine in this thread, some Irish accents from southern Ontario. The aboriginal people's accent in Winnipeg is often different from the white people's accent. And the Maritimes has a gradual changeover from an accent that's more Newfoundland in Cape Breton to more mainland in New Brunswick/southern Nova Scotia. But they'll still usually a little closer to us than, say, someone from TO. There's something in the vowels that's just not quite as foreign to me.

EDIT: Found a close-enough video. If you took someone from the Avalon Peninsula, with even the thickest accent imaginable, and made them read like this, it would be "th", not "d". In Labrador, it stays "d".

• Video Link