Canadian ethnicity, immigration, housing etc.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Docere

Compared to the US, yes. Immigration policy is different. Outside NYC South Asians are overwhelmingly upper middle class Indian Hindus.

Probably aside from California's Punjabis, parts of Texas and Chicago have a bit more diversity added from Pakistanis or other non-Hindu south Asians, but Sri Lankans (and non-subcontinent South-Asian origin immigrants, like Indo-Guyanese or Indo-Tanzanians) aren't big enough to make an impact on diversity in most US cities.

[Capsicum]

By the way, when did people in Canada start shifting away from usage of "East Indian" to "South Asian"?

I feel like older people in Canada (and people in smaller towns in Canada) still use "East Indian" to describe South Asians, but the term "South Asian" has overtaken any previous usage of "East Indians" probably at least by the '90s/2000s

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

Pretty sad that an important article highlighting the bigotry in Quebec against racial minorities, Muslims and indigenous peoples gets tucked into a larger thread so it can easily be ignored.

Thanks, mods!

Where is it now?

[someone123]

Originally Posted by lio45

It's not getting ignored at all here, if you pay attention to the media you will be aware that the provincial PM and his team keep reminding us how racist and unwelcoming we are every occasion he gets. (Probably got something to do with why ~85% of francophone Québécois intend to vote against the Liberals this fall.)

I wonder how much the relative lack of enthusiastic endorsement of Islam in Quebec boils down to differences in signalling. In the US it became popular to demonstrate that you are progressive by talking about how much you like Muslims, and this has bled over into Canada too. This happened as a reaction to right wing and Christian sentiment about Islamist terrorism (9-11, but even the Gulf War before that) and American (mis)adventures in the Middle East.

Some of the same people who will talk about how it is important to be tolerant of Muslims will also tell you how much they hate fundamentalist Christians. I am not sure the categories are all comparable either. For example, if you say "Christian" to a North American a listener will often think of the religion whereas "Muslim" has mixed religious and ethnic connotations (like "Jewish", although that is on average a bit more secular).

In an environment like this it seems like an opinion poll asking different groups what they think of Muslims won't yield consistent and meaningful results.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Acajack

How do you get access to stats this detailed? Especially given that Embrun is not its own municipality.

Statscan releases profiles for population centres and census tracts as well as municipalities. In the newest census they even release detailed profiles for "dissemination blocks", areas of a only a couple hundred people each that in urban areas are often only a few hundred metres across.

(Have fun! You won't believe the data benders I went on when I found this out...)

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Where is it now?

Removed the link to it and text about it because it was moved to an irrelevant thread (here).

Here's the link: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montre...inds-1.4577746

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

By the way, when did people in Canada start shifting away from usage of "East Indian" to "South Asian"?

I feel like older people in Canada (and people in smaller towns in Canada) still use "East Indian" to describe South Asians, but the term "South Asian" has overtaken any previous usage of "East Indians" probably at least by the '90s/2000s

Personally, I'm happy with this change.

To me, East India means the eastern part of India.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by Docere

Compared to the US, yes. Immigration policy is different. Outside NYC South Asians are overwhelmingly upper middle class Indian Hindus.

Yea, it's mainly immigration policy driving the difference.

In the US, South Asians tend to be affluent and educated, mostly because of how selective the immigration policy is when it comes to Indians and Chinese.

In Canada, it's mainly Sri Lankan Tamils from the 90s and Sikhs from the 80s (and even before then).

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by someone123

I wonder how much the relative lack of enthusiastic endorsement of Islam in Quebec boils down to differences in signalling. In the US it became popular to demonstrate that you are progressive by talking about how much you like Muslims, and this has bled over into Canada too. This happened as a reaction to right wing and Christian sentiment about Islamist terrorism (9-11, but even the Gulf War before that) and American (mis)adventures in the Middle East.

Some of the same people who will talk about how it is important to be tolerant of Muslims will also tell you how much they hate fundamentalist Christians. I am not sure the categories are all comparable either. For example, if you say "Christian" to a North American a listener will often think of the religion whereas "Muslim" has mixed religious and ethnic connotations (like "Jewish", although that is on average a bit more secular).

In an environment like this it seems like an opinion poll asking different groups what they think of Muslims won't yield consistent and meaningful results.

Interestingly, they also like racial minorities and indigenous peoples the least.

Are there similar things going on with those terms?

[kwoldtimer]

Also interestingly, and more important, the rate of Muslim Quebecois reporting that they have experienced discrimination compares favourably with the rest of Canada.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

By the way, when did people in Canada start shifting away from usage of "East Indian" to "South Asian"?

I feel like older people in Canada (and people in smaller towns in Canada) still use "East Indian" to describe South Asians, but the term "South Asian" has overtaken any previous usage of "East Indians" probably at least by the '90s/2000s

To me East Indians is to refer to people from India, and to distinguish them from Natives in North America. South Asian includes people from Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, etc. Can't speak for others, but so I use "South Asian" when I'm talking about that whole group, as opposed to Indians specifically.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

To me East Indians is to refer to people from India, and to distinguish them from Natives in North America. South Asian includes people from Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, etc. Can't speak for others, but so I use "South Asian" when I'm talking about that whole group, as opposed to Indians specifically.

True, but I think Indian should just be Indian... If you ask someone from India whether they are from East India, most (unless they're aware of the convention here) would think you're asking whether they're from one of the eastern states of India.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Also interestingly, and more important, the rate of Muslim Quebecois reporting that they have experienced discrimination compares favourably with the rest of Canada.

Yup, the good part is that the percentage of Muslims in Quebec who reported experiencing discrimination is not highest in Quebec.

Here are some of the other interesting parts:

"Even though Quebec politicians routinely claim otherwise, a recent study suggests Islamophobia is widespread in the province and more prevalent here than elsewhere in Canada."

"Here again Quebec stood out. The study found 70 per cent of respondents in the province expressed "significant" anti-Muslim sentiment, that is, a negative gap of five points or more between feelings toward Muslims and whites."

"The study's conclusions about anti-Muslim sentiment in Quebec align with findings from several recent opinion polls. For example, a 2017 CROP study suggested 34 per cent of Quebecers agreed that Muslim immigrants should outright be banned, compared with 23 per cent in the rest of Canada."

"The findings also challenge the tendency of Quebec's political leaders to downplay Islamophobia in the province."

"Efforts by anti-racism activists to discuss Islamophobia are often treated by conservative pundits as smear campaigns against the whole province."

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

True, but I think Indian should just be Indian... If you ask someone from India whether they are from East India, most (unless they're aware of the convention here) would think you're asking whether they're from one of the eastern states of India.

I don't disagree, but that is why people use the term.

But also, nobody would ever ask someone if they're from East India, because there's only one India. The reason people say "East Indian" is because there's two possible meanings to "Indian."

Most importantly though, I don't think anyone really uses "Indian" to refer to Natives anymore, so it's a moot point anyway. I think that's the real reason why you don't hear "East Indian" anymore. It's not that it's been replaced by "South Asian," which is a different thing, but it's been replaced just by "Indian" since there isn't really any ambiguity to that anymore.

[chris]

West Indies = The Caribbean a.k.a. The Antilles
East Indies = Southeast Asia and the Malay Archipelago
Indies = South Asia (Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Burma, Nepal)
East India = India

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

I don't disagree, but that is why people use the term.

But also, nobody would ever ask someone if they're from East India, because there's only one India. The reason people say "East Indian" is because there's two possible meanings to "Indian."

Most importantly though, I don't think anyone really uses "Indian" to refer to Natives anymore, so it's a moot point anyway. I think that's the real reason why you don't hear "East Indian" anymore. It's not that it's been replaced by "South Asian," which is a different thing, but it's been replaced just by "Indian" since there isn't really any ambiguity to that anymore.

Exactly, agreed.

On the point about asking whether they're East Indian, though, it would still be taken by most Indians who aren't aware of the peculiar convention as meaning someone from the eastern states of India. There's other internal directional identities too, like North Indian and South Indian.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by someone123

I wonder how much the relative lack of enthusiastic endorsement of Islam in Quebec boils down to differences in signalling.

I'm also pretty certain exposure is a powerful factor as well, i.e. that Quebec is the most "anti-Muslim" place in Canada for the same reason the Prairies are the most "anti-aboriginal" racist place in Canada and Vancouver is the most "anti-Chinese" racist place in Canada.

Similarly, it appears the Brits are a lot more anti-Polish than the Québécois. Should we be getting credit for being more open-minded than them? Or is it just because we aren't getting invaded by people of that particular origin, in which case we don't have much merit for being "fine with them"?

[lio45]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

Here are some of the other interesting parts:

"Even though Quebec politicians routinely claim otherwise, a recent study suggests Islamophobia is widespread in the province and more prevalent here than elsewhere in Canada."

In other news, a recent study found that racism against North American Aboriginals is much more widespread in rural Saskatchewan than in New York City. The damn racists of Saskatchewan should take a page from the Yankees!

[lio45]

Out of curiosity, anyone has numbers handy for # of crimes against aboriginals per year per metro area capita in midsized cities in the 800k-1.5M range (say, Edmonton/Winnipeg data vs Quebec City data) and in smaller cities in the 200k-500k range (say, Saskatoon/Prince Albert data vs Sherbrooke data) ?

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

True, but I think Indian should just be Indian... If you ask someone from India whether they are from East India, most (unless they're aware of the convention here) would think you're asking whether they're from one of the eastern states of India.

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

Exactly, agreed.

On the point about asking whether they're East Indian, though, it would still be taken by most Indians who aren't aware of the peculiar convention as meaning someone from the eastern states of India. There's other internal directional identities too, like North Indian and South Indian.

Though there'd be still confusion over "West Indian" meaning Caribbean, versus western part of India itself.

In Toronto, where there's a lot of both Indians and West Indians (people from the West Indies), people wouldn't as likely make such a confusion.

I've seen at least one place, passing by, in Scarborough advertise that they serve both "East Indian and West Indian food". I didn't go in to check if they meant Indian and Caribbean food or food from both parts of India though!