California High-Speed Rail - Page 51

BrianSac · #**1001** Posted **Jul 19, 2008, 7:39 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by FresnoFacts

Its a question of not just cost but cost vs revenue generation. Are the additional passengers generated by Sacramento enough to justify the cost. I don't know the answer to that.

I suspect a strong Yes. Sacramentans were one of the first american cities to build light rail. The Capitol Corridor (amtrack) Sacramento to the Bay Area has one of the highest riderships in the nation.

BrianSac · #**1002** Posted **Jul 19, 2008, 5:11 PM**

double post

BrianSac · #**1003** Posted **Jul 20, 2008, 6:57 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by FresnoFacts

Actually they are excluded if you don't consider it acceptable for Sacramento/Stockton/Modesto to have several hours to reach a station. For example:

Again, Sonoma Cnty (450,000) has a lot less people than SAC/STK/MOD (3,000,000) area. Marin is so to close to SF; you can't possible think of them that as not being connected. More importantly, you expect to build another bridge across the Golden Gate to reach Sonoma County or build another bridge across San Pablo Bay to reach Sonoma County or track through the coastal mountains that separate Napa and Sonoma counties. That would cost way too much to reach 450,000. It would cost much much less to track through the central valley from Merced to Sacramento and reach 3,000,000. Comprenez-vous?

Quote:

Originally Posted by FresnoFacts

Golden Gate Transit busses take 1 hour from Tiburon to the SF Financial District.

Ferries take 1/2 hour. Besides the people in Marin County are so wealthy they are used to taking taxis and limos to SF. There are some places in Marin County that are closer to the Transbay terminal than some places in SF, itself. Marin County is very very close to SF.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FresnoFacts

Transit or drive 101 between Sonoma County and SF? Its over 2 hours on Golden Gate Transit between Santa Rosa and downtown San Francisco. So if 2 hours is good enough for them.....

I've driven from Santa Rosa to SF in 40 mins.

bmfarley · #**1004** Posted **Jul 20, 2008, 11:57 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianSac

Don't tell me to shut up.

Didn't your mother teach you manners. If you have nothing say dont say anything at all.

The fact of the matter is Marin County is one of the most wealthest counties in the nation, and if you can't handle a dose of sarcasm that's pretty sad.

I will not tell anyone to shutup on a board, even to you BrianSac

, but there may have been the observation that the thread seems to be hijacked... into something barely related to HSR.

But back to HSR... to Brian or anyone else...

Is anyone involved in local efforts to get the vote out on Proposition 1?

I noticed that there could be some synerginestic values with anti-Iraq war protesters and pro-HSR. They both have links with oil. Any war protesters in your bergs?

I have noticed a regular group at an entrance to Downtown San Diego... at 10th & Ash.... but not recently (past 2 months). It seems such groups could be candidates for promoting HSR at the same time.

BrianSac · #**1005** Posted **Jul 21, 2008, 12:14 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmfarley

I will not tell anyone to shutup on a board, even to you BrianSac

, but there may have been the observation that the thread seems to be hijacked... into something barely related to HSR.

But back to HSR... to Brian or anyone else...

Is anyone involved in local efforts to get the vote out on Proposition 1?

I noticed that there could be some synerginestic values with anti-Iraq war protesters and pro-HSR. They both have links with oil. Any war protesters in your bergs?

I have noticed a regular group at an entrance to Downtown San Diego... at 10th & Ash.... but not recently (past 2 months). It seems such groups could be candidates for promoting HSR at the same time.

thanks,

I'm talking about legimate issues regarding HSR, and responding to those that have addressed my concerns with the inclusion of Sacramento/San Diego to HSR.

Smiley Person · #**1006** Posted **Jul 21, 2008, 4:34 AM**

Updated design reflecting comments from here and a few other places:

bmfarley · #**1007** Posted **Jul 21, 2008, 5:00 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smiley Person

Updated design reflecting comments from here and a few other places:

Sweet! Looks good to me. Any comments I have would just be a matter of semantics. "Yes on Propostion 1" in bold? bigger type? That's all I got.

BrianSac · #**1008** Posted **Jul 21, 2008, 5:41 AM**

According to this map, Merced is not part of the first phase, making the trip that much longer for Southern Sacramento Valley and Northern San Joaquin Valley residents.

bmfarley · #**1009** Posted **Jul 21, 2008, 8:42 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianSac

According to this map, Merced is not part of the first phase, making the trip that much longer for Southern Sacramento Valley and Northern San Joaquin Valley residents.

That is correct; Merced would not be in the first phase. So, the map is correct.

SacTownAndy · #**1010** Posted **Jul 21, 2008, 3:19 PM**

Just my 2 cents:

"And never smell the cows of I-5 again"

If I were one of the millions of people living in the valley and saw that flyer, I would be highly offended by that comment. Just a thought.

BrianSac · #**1011** Posted **Jul 21, 2008, 4:30 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmfarley

That is correct; Merced would not be in the first phase. So, the map is correct.

A Fresno guy sent a whole series of arguments stating that SAC/STK/MOD folks could bus or drive to the Merced station so they could hook up with HSR.
I questioned that saying that we would have to hook up in Fresno, SF, or SJ as our closest option. So, again SAC residents are a good 2 3/4 to 3 hours from the closest HSR station making us the most inconvenienced of major cities being left out of the first phase.

BrianSac · #**1012** Posted **Jul 21, 2008, 4:56 PM**

Smiley Person,
That is some nice artwork!
But, the map is still a bit deceptive because the reality of the future extentions being built are slim, and when they will be built is anybody's guess. For example, if under Future extentions, you could write in a year, "'Future Extentions, 2030-2040", would be less misleading.

Also, some of those stations such as, Visalia, that you have listed under the first and future phase are not part of the first phase, its still ambiguous.

I do like the timetable! Its cool to see that it would take only 2hrs, 8 mins to go from downtown SJ to downtown LA. I'm jealous, too bad Sacramento may never have such an option.

wburg · #**1013** Posted **Jul 21, 2008, 5:37 PM**

I'm not so convinced that the first phase of HSR would be the only phase ever to be built. Fact is, this would be the first high-speed rail system in the nation (unless you count Acela, which I don't) and considering the way things are going (nationwide and worldwide) it will probably be the new standard. I'm all for high speed rail in the United States, as long as it gets built and running!

There is a microcosm of this going on in Sacramento right now. There is a plan to build a new streetcar system, but the current plan runs it from downtown Sacramento to downtown West Sacramento. The line doesn't extend into Midtown, currently the hep neighborhood, or into recently built neighborhoods in West Sac, and people have criticized it for not going far enough. But the point of this system isn't to build everything at once, it's to build SOMETHING soon. And SOMETHING soon, even if it isn't perfect, is better than EVERYTHING never. Expansion is always possible once a starter system is built--and simpler than building a comprehensive system from scratch.

High-speed rail should still be carefully planned and well thought out--but we've been planning it for decades, and we're 40 years behind the rest of the world at high-speed rail construction!

The nice thing about transportation networks, unlike single buildings, is that they can be expanded once you've built the initial system. Once we get it started, even if Sacramento isn't in the first phase, we can still point to a working HSR system as a point of pride for the entire state.

BrianSac · #**1014** Posted **Jul 21, 2008, 6:18 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by wburg

even if Sacramento isn't in the first phase, we can still point to a working HSR system as a point of pride for the entire state.

There is no question about it, Sacramento is not included in the first phase, so to suggest it might be is misleading.

As a Californian, I, too, would, still, be prideful of a California HSR system that didnt include Sacramento in a first phase, but it amazes me that you as a Sacramentan would settle for less. Why am I not surprised to hear that from you?

wburg · #**1015** Posted **Jul 21, 2008, 6:26 PM**

Quote:

Why am I not surprised to hear that from you?

Because you're used to me looking at the bigger picture, and my preference for pragmatism over unreachable idealism? *shrug*

What's the build-out schedule like even if this gets approved? I'd be surprised (assuming it passes this year) to see trains running before 2015-2020.

Nutterbug · #**1016** Posted **Jul 21, 2008, 8:20 PM**

Does anyone else find it odd that Vancouver and Portland are mentioned as connections, but Seattle isn't?

bmfarley · #**1017** Posted **Jul 21, 2008, 8:34 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nutterbug

Does anyone else find it odd that Vancouver and Portland are mentioned as connections, but Seattle isn't?

I believe you are mis-reading the map. Those connections/lines imply other services are available to get to those destinations; connecting trains. But, perhaps they could be toned down a bit. How's your monitor? The HSR lines are bolder or have more vibrant colors.

Nutterbug · #**1018** Posted **Jul 21, 2008, 8:41 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmfarley

I believe you are mis-reading the map. Those connections/lines imply other services are available to get to those destinations; connecting trains. But, perhaps they could be toned down a bit. How's your monitor? The HSR lines are bolder or have more vibrant colors.

I know exactly what it's saying. Of course the HSR trains don't run to the Pacific NW themselves, but through connecting trains (though I may loosely interpret them as possible long shot future extensions).

I just find it odd that the biggest city in the region has been omitted for two smaller cities, one of which is in another country.

bmfarley · #**1019** Posted **Jul 21, 2008, 9:03 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nutterbug

I just find it odd that the biggest city in the region has been omitted for two smaller cities, one of which is in another country.

Well, you're right. I am assuming Vancouver on the map is Vancouver Washington... which is right across the river from Portland. But that begs the question... why Vancouver WA when it IS right across the river! I'd sub Seattle for Vancouver WA.

There is NO direct train connections to as far north as Vancouver Canada... the Coast Starlight terminates in Seattle. The intention is therfore, Vancouver Washington.

It should be cleared up, imo.

Nutterbug · #**1020** Posted **Jul 21, 2008, 9:20 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by SacTownAndy

Just my 2 cents:

"And never smell the cows of I-5 again"

If I were one of the millions of people living in the valley and saw that flyer, I would be highly offended by that comment. Just a thought.

But expressing any objection to it may be seen as an admission to liking the smell of cow feces.