Halifax Stadium Discussion

[halifaxboyns]

I have a slight issue with your comments Waye Mason. I went back through this discussion and I'd like to know where you are pulling out the idea that we're pushing for some diamond encrusted, gold and silver palace to HRM? There isn't any agreement on a stadium size, we all have different opinions but the range seems to be about the same size of SMU/Moncton (at the low end) to about 30,000 seats at the top end. So where are you getting the idea that we're advocating a $100 million + stadium? I'm sure most would agree that's over the top for a city without a major team to occupy the stadium.

So the price for this project isn't set in stone and we (the public) are being asked for our opinion. But one thing which seems to be forgotten is that Halifax isn't a small 'town' anymore. It's a mid-sized city; 400,000 and climbing (quickly I might add). The GDP numbers which Fenwick posted give me reasonable comfort that this could go forward with a minimal effect on the tax payer.

The other comfort I have in this is looking at the private investment side and being comfortable that there would be no problem getting private investment into something like this. Since the most recent design floated was around a both soccer/football field - there would be investment in team sponsorship (that's probably a given). The other opportunities are in the stadium and stadium site itself. Naming rights - the Saddledome naming rights are $10 million for ten years. A similar price for this facility doesn't seem far fetched to me, although given the scale it might be less than 10 million $.

The other revenue generator that I can see is advertising (beyond naming rights). The parking lots of stadiums are usually full of advertising (billboards) and on the sides of stadiums - the same thing. You could easily sell off advertising rights within the stadium to a group such as pattison where HRM would take as much of 40% of the revenue (or more) and make money off that. Add into this rental of the field to sports teams, I'm sure the place will generate revenue and not be the money pit you seem to make it out to be. Will it make a profit - probably not initially. But that's okay, it takes time to build interest.

So there are long term means to recover good portions of the cost of a stadium that could be as much as $50 million. Plus using your maintenance costs estimate - something reasonable at what seems to be the most common figure I've seen discussed ($50 million) would be half that of what you suggested - in the 1 to 2 million $/year range. Also, operating the facility for things like concerts can be done in a manner that the ticket cost includes things like security.

Finally - my last comment would be that I'm sick and tired and people being so pesemistic and negative toward Halifax. The city IS growing and many of us agree it will far surpass the top end growth forcast in HRM's regional plan of 425,000 LONG before 2027 (when the plan expires). So it's time to start looking beyond HRM's quaint image of the past and embrace it's future, because people are moving in and will want things to make the city feel even more important, like sports arenas and other public facilities.

[wespidel]

95.7 IS ON LINE, BUT i DON`T THINK YOU CAN GET THE INTERVIEW WITH MAYOR KELLY, ALSO MAYOR KELLY PARTIAL ROOF DESIGN IS BIGGER BETTER AND THAN MONCTON`S WITH A SEE THROUGH STYLE LIKE WINNEPEGS NEW STADIUM ROOF

[fenwick16]

Was that Mayor Kelly's description of the roof?

[wespidel]

Shannon Park, traffic problem and way too much crime not far from the park, put the stadium downtown Halifax or at Gorsebrook site across from Saint Mary`s or Cogswell area, downtown Halifax. Build it where it well stimulate the economy and businesses and build it in Halifax

Moncton stadium is really what it is 23 million dollar stadium. The roof section is very small but nicely done, permanent washrooms inside and concession stands, way to small of an area, very tiny but nice seats and the other side
of stadium is basicly a steel or metal frame with bucket seats but no washrooms concession stand or concourse.

Bad part about Monctons stadium the small roof side cannot be expanded but they can expand the stadium permanently to 28 thousand maxium but a lot of it in the endzones.

Halifax does not want a stadium like Moncton`s, it`s poorly designed and too small and needs at least 50 million dollars to make it a CFL size stadium with most of the seats in the endzones.

Halifax needs to find away to built a 25 thousand plus
permanent seat stadium with two sides the same, 12,500 plus seats on each side of stadium, with concourses on both sides with washrooms and concessions stands and least 25 plus skyboxes on both sides of the stadium with press boxes down on the 5 yd line like Winnipeg are doing, expandable in the endzones to 45 to 50 thousand for a Grey Cup and major concerts in a location where they have the room to build it.

This is the model they need to build and if it means steel benches like McGill stadium where the Als play versus more expendive back seats, do it to make sure we have all the other necessary amenities and features a CFL size staidium needs for the owner to make money or a concert promoter or a soccer franchise owner in the future. Skyboxes are very extremely important. Ottawa are building a 26,000 plus seat new modern stadium with over 30 skyboxes the same as Winnipeg.

If it means 80 million dollars to build it, spent the money, you only build it once, so do it right and build it right. Also there is a wealthy businessman from Calgary that openly said if Halifax had the proper stadium facility for a CFL team he would buy a CFL franchise and put it in Halifax and he was seriously. Build it right and opportunites will present themselves!

Halifax is not 125 thousand people, so build a stadium suited for the size of the city and spend the money to build it right nor don`t build it period and let Moncton laugh at us!

[wespidel]

Yes, Mayor Kelly said parial roof, referring the design posted by Events NS which by the way Fenwick, is idential to Winnipeg`s new stadium design if you check the photo of the Halifax proposed Dec. 24 the deadline bid illustration. It`s a see through partial roof, Ottawa is doing the same with one side of their new stadium too with the same type partial roof design.

One other important part to build a stadium which could save Halifax money is a GMP, Guarantee Maxium Price which Winnipeg is doing with there new stadium.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by wespidel

Yes, Mayor Kelly said parial roof, referring the design posted by Events NS which by the way Fenwick, is idential to Winnipeg`s new stadium design if you check the photo of the Halifax proposed Dec. 24 the deadline bid illustration. It`s a see through partial roof, Ottawa is doing the same with one side of their new stadium too with the same type partial roof design.

One other important part to build a stadium which could save Halifax money is a GMP, Guarantee Maxium Price which Winnipeg is doing with there new stadium.

It sounds like a lot of work has been done on the design. Just out of interest, I looked up a bit of information on a material that seems to be commonly used for stadium roofs - ETFE. Here are a few links that I came across:
http://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/10...terial-dunedin
ftp://ftp.eng.auburn.edu/pub/hza0002...papers/273.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETFE

Based on what I read (in the past half hour) it is a very strong, light-weight material, so it should keep the weight of the roof to a minimum.

Did Mayor Kelly say when we will get to see renderings of the stadium design?

[Empire]

Originally Posted by wespidel

Shannon Park, traffic problem and way too much crime not far from the park, put the stadium downtown Halifax or at Gorsebrook site across from Saint Mary`s or Cogswell area, downtown Halifax. Build it where it well stimulate the economy and businesses and build it in Halifax!

There is no way a stadium will fit in the Cogswell St. interchange area. There are 16 acres there and once it is torn down and the streets replaced there may be 2.5 acres available for development. There is a lot of emphasis placed on the available land at Cogswell interchance but it just isn`t there. Plus HRM put an access shaft and chamber in the middle for the Harbour Solutions debacle.


Cogswell St. Interchange limited land available.......
http://maps.google.it/maps?f=q&sourc...12,138.34,,0,5

[brettinhalifax]

account deleted

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by brettinhalifax

In my experience, the majority of fans at a football game don't even go out before or after the game. I think it is because it is an outdoor sport and unlike other sports the home team fan has a role to play (noise on defence) So in nice weather, 3 or 4 hours outdoors cheering for your team is a lot of work and in poor weather it is really exhausting.

And if the spectators do go out before/after the game, it isn't necessarily in the stadium's neighbourhood. For instance, some bars would have shuttle buses to take their patrons to the game. What could be better for a 25 year old? Walk to your neighbourhood pub, have a few beers with your football loving neighbours and friends, get a free ride to the game, have a few beers at the game and then a free ride back to your neighbourhood pub! Drunk for 6 hours, live football and no chance of drinking and driving (or Burly Joe piggy back rides)

So in my experience the vast majority of fans go home (or at least away from the stadium) after the game whether they take a bus, walk or drive. IMO they'd just go home from a stadium in the middle of nowhere or from a stadium on the peninsula.

So what major stadiums have you been to where you had such an experience that you described? Since most major stadiums in North America are actually centrally located near the urban area of their respective cities, you must have chosen to only go to the ones remotely located.

I get the feeling that you aren't really a city-loving person. A lot of people like going into a city for sports events. People from outside of Halifax aren't going to get excited by going to a stadium in Woodside (not even near the ferry terminal since you feel that land would be too valuable to use for a stadium). Doesn't promoting Halifax have anything to do with building a stadium? Or it is just the self-centered concept of go get drunk, work hard cheering and then go home? And shouldn't a stadium be used for more than 10 football games a year?

[MaritimeCFLFan]

Personally if I were to make trips to HRM to watch CFL football I'd prefer to have a few resteraunts or bars close to the stadium so I could grab a meal or drink after the game or perhaps before.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by MaritimeCFLFan

Personally if I were to make trips to HRM to watch CFL football I'd prefer to have a few resteraunts or bars close to the stadium so I could grab a meal or drink after the game or perhaps before.

I think that it would be good to have a stadium close to a built up area so that a restaurant/lounge could be permanently located within the stadium with a window looking out onto the field (and a outdoor large patio overlooking the field). Even when there isn't a game occurring I think that the stadium restaurant would still attract people who want to be at a sports related restaurant.

The Molson Centre (arena) in Barrie, Ontario where the Barrie Colts play (major Junior A hockey) has a restaurant located within the arena where people can go eat and have a view of the arena rink (usually a game isn't being played but it has a great atmosphere being inside of the arena).

If there are various reasons for people to go to the stadium then I think it will be a successful venue because it will become more of a part of the municipality than a remote stadium would be.

[MaritimeCFLFan]

Hey all,

I created a new thread (poll) aimed at trying to gauge what type of support a CFL team would receive among the posters here at SkyscraperPage.com. I know many of you have already stated your support in this and other threads but I feel this deserves it's own thread. Make a selection at...

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=187693

If a new multi purpose stadium for Halifax becomes a reality I'm sure a CFL team will follow.

[halifaxboyns]

While I agree with Fenwick for the most part (on trying to keep the stadium centrally located) - the difficulty here is where? The site I would lend support too (which has been discussed) isn't available and may not be for a long time - Windsor Park. The other option discussed is the Gorsebrook Field (that's near SMU and DAL - that's the name right?) - which I don't really have a problem with; but suspect there might be issues.

With the GB site - I suspect you will get a truck load of NIMBY/CAVE dwellers up in arms over the idea. The other problem is that it's still not 'centrally' located in the truest sense, it's kind-of off to the side of downtown, but still in easy reach of it by walking or transit. The other issue would be access back onto the peninsula and parking. I'm not sure how parking could be accommodated on the site, given that there are 2 schools there now too - that also adds to the equation.

You could put it out at Exhibition Park or Shannon, or Dartmouth Crossing but that creates the problem that these things are not centrally located nor are there things near by that could provide for people going there (restaurants, bars etc). So you'd have to wait for them to pop up.

I also don't know if I fully agree with some of the comments about people going to the game and not necessairily 'stopping off' to have a pint somewhere. I know some do and some don't and yes, the shuttle service (that was pointed out) from a local bar/pub could be helpful. Given that there is interest now; I'm affraid that time and location may play as negative factors in this part of the equation and the stadium may end up outside of the downtown; with none of these services available right away (accept at the stadium). That may not be such a bad thing considering that probably in the next 15 to 20 years a new Metro Centre will be needed and that should remain in DT and could easily offset the loss of stadium patrons. I think for me; I look at Edmonton and Calgary's stadium and there are a few little bars/restaurants near by but nothing major and it seems to work okay. But those cities have an efficient transit system to get to the stadium. So if HRM provided that; I think it should be okay.

[Empire]

I think we should make a list of multi purpose uses for a stadium in addition to the regular uses such as football, rugby, soccer, lacrosse etc.

1. Transit hub.
2. Shopping/entertainment centre.
3. Restaurant bar overlooking the field like ACC/Rogers centre
4. Have several outdoor rinks from Dec. to April. Perhaps have and ice plant under the stands.
5.

[c-way-dude]

Ottawa had an inflatable dome that covered most of the playing field. It allowed the field to be used pretty much year round.

[wespidel]

It will not be built at Saint Marys, because it`s not a big enough area and it will be 25,000 plus permanent seats with 20 plus skyboxes and permanent washrooms and concessions on both sides and it will be a bowl stadium expandable 60 to 80 million dollars with a partial see through roof. You will hear more soon, drawings have been done and they will be presented to the public soon for feedback, apparently it`s copy off a modular type stadium from some foreign country. Fenwick do you know the design and what is the country. It was said to me and I forgot what country but what I`m telling you is true and you will know more soon.

Fenwick you were right, the Events NS first drawing was not the stadium Halifax will build. The only concern I have that if it`s bowled it may be limited to only 35,000 for expansion but the good news it will be not a Sue Utech special built a Saint Mary`s.

HAPPY YEAR NEW, AND MARK COHON SHOULD MAYBE HOLD OFF ON MONCTON

[MaritimeCFLFan]

Originally Posted by Empire

I think we should make a list of multi purpose uses for a stadium in addition to the regular uses such as football, rugby, soccer, lacrosse etc.

1. Transit hub.
2. Shopping/entertainment centre.
3. Restaurant bar overlooking the field like ACC/Rogers centre
4. Have several outdoor rinks from Dec. to April. Perhaps have and ice plant under the stands.
5.

I'd add concerts.

I really love the outdoor rink idea.

[thurmas]

the new stadium here in winnipeg will be a bowl seating 33,000 but it will have tracks at the endzones for extra seats to expand for 45,000 for grey cups!

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by wespidel

It will not be built at Saint Marys, because it`s not a big enough area and it will be 25,000 plus permanent seats with 20 plus skyboxes and permanent washrooms and concessions on both sides and it will be a bowl stadium expandable 60 to 80 million dollars with a partial see through roof. You will hear more soon, drawings have been done and they will be presented to the public soon for feedback, apparently it`s copy off a modular type stadium from some foreign country. Fenwick do you know the design and what is the country. It was said to me and I forgot what country but what I`m telling you is true and you will know more soon.

I heard a rumour from someone on this forum (by private message) that it would be the BC Lion's temporary facility. Please tell me this isn't true !!! It is a bowl shape but the stands are held up by metal scaffolding. It was fabricated by an European company and is a modular design. There are companies in the Maritimes that can build solid, concrete, modular type stadiums (by modular I mean basic repeating units, not a cheap temporary, movable structure).

Please what is your source of this information, wespidel? They have an electronic version of my last 3D model. But I don't live in a foreign country so they must have something better in mind. I am working on a better version (based on some of your requests, wespidel). For what it is worth, I will send it to City Hall also (I think that they are just being diplomatically nice to me, I don't think they are planning to build a stadium based on my designs). However, there have been some good economical designs built in the UK recently, one that comes to mind is the Cardiff City Stadium which is a fairly basic but very nice design. However, being an enclosed bowl, I don't know how it could be expanded to 45,000 (I am working on a version that would be another modular design but built of poured in place and precast concrete, built in an economical way similar to a multilevel parking garage).

[wespidel]

If it was a temporary stadium than it would not be build in a bowl permanent seat structure, this is a permanent bowl 25 thousand seat stadium not temporary, the same stadium has been built and I wished I could remember the country and city. It can be expanded to 35 thousand plus. I would prefer like you Fenwick a similar style stadium to Ottawa first design which I`m going to try to find with two idential sides with 30 skyboxes and 25 thousand seats with open endzones for expansion. I apparently this stadium can be seen on line if I could remember the country. It sounded like a foreign country. I will try to find out, meanwhile can you Fenwick put together a 25 thousand permanent seat model both idential double decked sides 12,500 permanent seats on each side with concourses, washrooms and concession stands with 10 to 12 skyboxes on each side of stadium and maybe more depending where you put the press boxes and club seats.

Fenwick please email to me at... wespidel@hfx.eastlink.ca.... and I will forward it the source who his presenting the designs.

By the Fenwick just to reassure you this is a 60 to 70 million dollar stadium not a 30 million. I don`t want to reveil the source of information I`m giving because it`s private information but it will be public very soon and this is the design that the city Halifax are keen on, cost wise and size for the money and I believe the best deal presented to them at this point.