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  #1  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2008, 12:12 PM
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Chris Creech Chris Creech is offline
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Is Atlanta/GA Finally at a Transportation Crossroads?

It just seems like the planets all seem to be aligning:

1) $4/plus gas

2) The end of decades of "cheap/easy" gas

2) People finally ditching SUVs and taking transportation costs seriously

3) Lots of press about Atlanta being the 2nd most congested city

4) Record commute times

5) the return to the city

6) dropping the surburban bedroom community mentality for new urbanism and live/work/play.

7) The state legistlature getting thoroughly raked over the coals for not taking action on transportation bills

8) Gwinett straw polling on MARTA next election

9) Surbuban county bus lines running out of their fed start up funds

10) increased ridership on public transportation

11) increasing hassle and cost of flying making regional trip options more attractive

12) a federal legistlation (over a Bush veto threat) to give more money to rail development

14) high profile infrastructure failures (bridge collapses) and a general concensus that we've neglected our national/state transportation infrastruture for far too long and it's time to start rebuilding

15) the good chance of a more transit friendly democratic president AND congress

then.... (drum roll please)

16) Sonny Purdue coming out in support of commuter rail (I think hell must have just frozen over).

It just seems that with all these items (and more) it's just impossible to continue with business as usual.
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  #2  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2008, 12:46 PM
Tombstoner Tombstoner is offline
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You list the many good reasons for why this should be a crossroads (and believe me, I'm rooting right along with you). But however much it makes sense to move to a new transportation paradigm, I think that overcoming Atlanta's basic sprawl is an almost insurmountable obstacle. In looking over the list, it seems overwhelmingly weighted on the side of "good reasons why we should..." rather than on any recent physical changes in the urban environment that make the logic irresistable.

Of course, this isn't a yes/no question: there are pockets of increased density (and there will be more) and as Atlanta gets denser, transit infrastructure will get better--but I don't see how it will get a lot better.
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  #3  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2008, 1:00 PM
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Fiorenza Fiorenza is offline
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Here's what I posted on PeachPundit:

Hopefully the re-configured, semi-autonomous DOT can study likelihood of a transportation “paradigm shift” quantitatively and objectively — the same way a large corporation looks at various contemplated strategic moves. They (DOT) should consider the most likely future scenario for fossil fuel and alternatives, the effect thereof on urban suburban and exurban Georgians, public and private roles in abetting modification, total cost of ownership of public/public-private initiatives, and the citizens’ ability and willingness to adopt proposed mode changes. The process of analysis should be done openly by way of a web interface where the public can blog comments. To the extent public money is involved, there should be consensus. We’re talking change here, Obama-style.
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  #4  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2008, 5:40 PM
smArTaLlone smArTaLlone is online now
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I was just reading an article in Chronicle where the mayor talks about people moving into new transit oriented developments and getting rid of their cars in Chamblee. The funny thing about Atlanta's sprawl is that it's left ample opportunity to develop density around existing and future transit corridors and the Doraville GM plant could be the next big "new urbanist", TOD village.

I think it will happen if we get the huge missing piece which is a funding mechanism dedicated to transit.
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  #5  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2008, 11:54 PM
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Chris Creech Chris Creech is offline
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I think so much of it too if just mindset.

How many times have you heard something like "oh, people in Atlanta just love there car's you'll never get them out of them."

It's almost like it's unamerican or unpatriotic not to drive a big gass guzzling pick-up truck. (Of course the most patriotic/american vehicle is something like the hummer or off-wheel version of a huge jacked up king cab -- even if yuo actually live in a condo in midtown.)

It seems to be so tied up with our identy as american. We see driving alone in our own personal vehicle, whereever whenever we want, all somehow tied in with God, Freedom, Being American, and Mom's apple pie.

If we could just over the fear that if we were to take the train or a light rail or even a bus into work - that somehow we'd all overnight turn into a bunch of lily-livered, tree hugging, europeans.
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  #6  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2008, 2:57 AM
Andrea Andrea is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Creech View Post
It's almost like it's unamerican or unpatriotic not to drive a big gass guzzling pick-up truck. (Of course the most patriotic/american vehicle is something like the hummer or off-wheel version of a huge jacked up king cab -- even if yuo actually live in a condo in midtown.)

It seems to be so tied up with our identy as american. We see driving alone in our own personal vehicle, whereever whenever we want, all somehow tied in with God, Freedom, Being American, and Mom's apple pie.

If we could just over the fear that if we were to take the train or a light rail or even a bus into work - that somehow we'd all overnight turn into a bunch of lily-livered, tree hugging, europeans.
Chris, take a look at the results of the Challenge X Survey.
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  #7  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2008, 3:34 PM
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Chris, take a look at the results of the Challenge X Survey.

the survey was done online though...which basically takes it out of the mainstream. hence all the stats that IMO are clearly "too good to be true" in terms of ppl being in favor of going green.

the first bullet point was a huge red flag to me :Fuel- efficient -- The new chick magnet? Close to nine in 10 women (88 percent) say they’d rather chat up someone with the latest fuel-efficient car versus the latest sports car.

I know this is not true haha.
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  #8  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2008, 3:57 PM
civilexpert civilexpert is offline
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I think Atlanta's current system is great, don't know what you're talking about. I have a reverse commute, takes me only 25 minutes to get from home downtown to my job in Cobb. I think some people here in Atlanta deserve to sit in traffic for being the fools they are for living far from work. If we were running on emissions free and alternative energy I'd be in paradise. But that's not Georgia's fault, that's Detroit's fault (oh, and all the rich fat republicans around here).

I get a laugh every morning going down riverside drive reverse commute

Hope I offended everyone!
cheers!
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  #9  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2008, 4:08 PM
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Originally Posted by civilexpert View Post
I think Atlanta's current system is great, don't know what you're talking about. I have a reverse commute, takes me only 25 minutes to get from home downtown to my job in Cobb. I think some people here in Atlanta deserve to sit in traffic for being the fools they are for living far from work. If we were running on emissions free and alternative energy I'd be in paradise. But that's not Georgia's fault, that's Detroit's fault (oh, and all the rich fat republicans around here).

I get a laugh every morning going down riverside drive reverse commute

Hope I offended everyone!
cheers!
I'm with you! But it's a 10 min slow walk for me
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  #10  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2008, 4:27 PM
Andrea Andrea is offline
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Originally Posted by civilexpert View Post
I have a reverse commute, takes me only 25 minutes to get from home downtown to my job in Cobb.
I don't know whether you offended people but your situation is hardly unique. 40% of workers who live within the Atlanta city limits already commute to jobs in the suburbs. If you look at the trends I would have to expect that percentage to increase.
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  #11  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2008, 8:57 PM
BabydaddyATL BabydaddyATL is offline
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I don't know whether you offended people but your situation is hardly unique. 40% of workers who live within the Atlanta city limits already commute to jobs in the suburbs. If you look at the trends I would have to expect that percentage to increase.
Sweet Jesus Andrea, don't get that argument going again.
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  #12  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2008, 10:06 PM
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It's no argument, BD, it's just a fact! I can't see why anyone would get upset about it.
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  #13  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2008, 2:49 AM
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Sure, but I think some of the things on the list have been going on for years.
As for Suburban vs. Urban. Both will always exist. Not everyone wants to live in the city. Just like there are people who do not want to live in the burbs. I have lived in both. Both have pros and cons. I prefer the urban lifestyle.
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  #14  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2008, 3:47 AM
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Another interesting take on the modern reversion to urbanism....

By Lara Farrar
For CNN

(CNN) -- When Shaun Yandell proposed to his longtime girlfriend Gina Marasco on the doorstep of their new home in the sunny suburb of Elk Grove, California, four years ago, he never imagined things would get this bad. But they did, and it happened almost overnight.
art.jpg

Suburban neighborhoods are becoming refuges for those outpriced in gentrifying inner-cities.

"It is going to be heartbreak," Yandell told CNN. "But we are hanging on."

Yandell's marriage isn't falling apart: his neighborhood is.

Devastated by the subprime mortgage crisis, hundreds of homes have been foreclosed and thousands of residents have been forced to move, leaving in their wake a not-so-pleasant path of empty houses, unkempt lawns, vacant strip malls, graffiti-sprayed desolate sidewalks and even increased crime.

In Elk Grove, some homeowners not only cut their own grass but also trim the yards of vacant homes on their streets, hoping to deter gangs and criminals from moving in.

Other residents discovered that with some of the empty houses, it wasn't what was growing outside that was the problem. Susan McDonald, president of a local neighborhood association aimed at saving the lost suburban paradise, told CNN that around her cul-de-sac, federal agents recently busted several pot homes with vast crops of marijuana growing from floor to ceiling.

And only a couple of weeks ago, Yandell said he overheard a group of teenagers gathered on the street outside his back patio, talking about a robbery they had just committed.

When they lit a street sign on fire, Yandell called the cops.

"This is not like a rare thing anymore," he said. "I get big congregations of people cussing -- stuff I can't even fathom doing when I was a kid."

For Yandell, his wife and many other residents trying to stick it out, the white picket fence of an American dream has faded into a seemingly hopeless suburban nightmare. "The forecast is gloomy," he told CNN.

While the foreclosure epidemic has left communities across the United States overrun with unoccupied houses and overgrown grass, underneath the chaos another trend is quietly emerging that, over the next several decades, could change the face of suburban American life as we know it.

This trend, according to Christopher Leinberger, an urban planning professor at the University of Michigan and visiting fellow at the Brookings Institution, stems not only from changing demographics but also from a major shift in the way an increasing number of Americans -- especially younger generations -- want to live and work.

"The American dream is absolutely changing," he told CNN.

This change can be witnessed in places like Atlanta, Georgia, Detroit, Michigan, and Dallas, Texas, said Leinberger, where once rundown downtowns are being revitalized by well-educated, young professionals who have no desire to live in a detached single family home typical of a suburbia where life is often centered around long commutes and cars.

Instead, they are looking for what Leinberger calls "walkable urbanism" -- both small communities and big cities characterized by efficient mass transit systems and high density developments enabling residents to walk virtually everywhere for everything -- from home to work to restaurants to movie theaters.

The so-called New Urbanism movement emerged in the mid-90s and has been steadily gaining momentum, especially with rising energy costs, environmental concerns and health problems associated with what Leinberger calls "drivable suburbanism" -- a low-density built environment plan that emerged around the end of the World War II and has been the dominant design in the U.S. ever since.


Thirty-five percent of the nation's wealth, according to Leinberger, has been invested in constructing this drivable suburban landscape.

But now, Leinberger told CNN, it appears the pendulum is beginning to swing back in favor of the type of walkable community that existed long before the advent of the once fashionable suburbs in the 1940s. He says it is being driven by generations molded by television shows like "Seinfeld" and "Friends," where city life is shown as being cool again -- a thing to flock to, rather than flee.

"The image of the city was once something to be left behind," said Leinberger.

Changing demographics are also fueling new demands as the number of households with children continues to decline. By the end of the next decade, the number of single-person households in the United States will almost equal those with kids, Leinberger said.

And aging baby boomers are looking for a more urban lifestyle as they downsize from large homes in the suburbs to more compact town houses in more densely built locations.

Recent market research indicates that up to 40 percent of households surveyed in selected metropolitan areas want to live in walkable urban areas, said Leinberger. The desire is also substantiated by real estate prices for urban residential space, which are 40 to 200 percent higher than in traditional suburban neighborhoods -- this price variation can be found both in cities and small communities equipped with walkable infrastructure, he said.

The result is an oversupply of depreciating suburban housing and a pent-up demand for walkable urban space, which is unlikely to be met for a number of years. That's mainly, according to Leinberger, because the built environment changes very slowly; and also because governmental policies and zoning laws are largely prohibitive to the construction of complicated high-density developments.

But as the market catches up to the demand for more mixed use communities, the United States could see a notable structural transformation in the way its population lives -- Arthur C. Nelson, director of Virginia Tech's Metropolitan Institute, estimates, for example, that half of the real-estate development built by 2025 will not have existed in 2000.

Yet Nelson also estimates that in 2025 there will be a surplus of 22 million large-lot homes that will not be left vacant in a suburban wasteland but instead occupied by lower classes who have been driven out of their once affordable inner-city apartments and houses.

The so-called McMansion, he said, will become the new multi-family home for the poor.

"What is going to happen is lower and lower-middle income families squeezed out of downtown and glamorous suburban locations are going to be pushed economically into these McMansions at the suburban fringe," said Nelson. "There will probably be 10 people living in one house."

In Shaun Yandell's neighborhood, this has already started to happen. Houses once filled with single families are now rented out by low-income tenants. Yandell speculates that they're coming from nearby Sacramento, where the downtown is undergoing substantial gentrification, or perhaps from some other area where prices have gotten too high. He isn't really sure.

But one thing Yandell is sure about is that he isn't going to leave his sunny suburban neighborhood unless he has to, and if that happens, he says he would only want to move to another one just like it.

"It's the American dream, you know," he said. "The American dream."

................................................................


Sounds like the proverbial "cycle" is manifesting itself. Quite reminiscent of current major European metropolises.
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  #15  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2008, 4:07 AM
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There's still a lot to be said for the suburbs and single family homes, and a lot of people still like them. As was mentioned in that article I posted in the other thread, Atlanta added 900,000 residents between 2000-2006, and somewhere between 90-95 percent of them settled outside the city limits. Instead of crumbling as Mr. Leinberger suggests, the suburbs may just become increasingly refined and urbanized. There's no reason they can't be made more walkable and livable.

Cost is an issue, too. Not all people (young or old) can afford a $450,000 home in a gentrified neighborhood. I've been working my whole life and I certainly couldn't.
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  #16  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2008, 1:09 PM
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^There's plenty of affordable places to live in the city.
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  #17  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2008, 4:09 PM
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It depends on what you mean by affordable and what your needs are. I spent months scouring the city for houses in the $175-210,000 range and the options are limited.
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  #18  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2008, 5:43 PM
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What about rentals? Cost may be an issue for buying property in the city, but I wouldn't say it's much of an issue for moving to the city. I guess my point is I don't think cost is the big reason only 90-95 percent of people settled outside the city between 2000-2006.
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  #19  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2008, 6:56 PM
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No, I certainly don't think it's all about cost. Lower housing costs are a significant factor, but you've also got schools and proximity to jobs, shopping, churches, recreation and all that stuff working in favor of the burbs. For whatever reason, I think there's also a persistent (if erroneous) perception that the suburbs are safer and cleaner.

And yes, renting is an option, but a lot of people would rather buy than rent, thinking that they'll accumulate come capital. That's a big if in today's world but traditionally buying a home has been considered a major goal for many families and individuals.
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  #20  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2008, 7:04 PM
testarossa50 testarossa50 is offline
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No, I certainly don't think it's all about cost. Lower housing costs are a significant factor, but you've also got schools and proximity to jobs, shopping, churches, recreation and all that stuff working in favor of the burbs. For whatever reason, I think there's also a persistent (if erroneous) perception that the suburbs are safer and cleaner.

And yes, renting is an option, but a lot of people would rather buy than rent, thinking that they'll accumulate come capital. That's a big if in today's world but traditionally buying a home has been considered a major goal for many families and individuals.
That's true. And an irony of the whole buying vs renting dilemma is that they are theoretically economically equivlent. The government tilts the scales in favor of buying, however, by deducting mortgage interest from taxable income. Just one of he many, MANY ways our government has encouraged suburbanization indirectly or directly.
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