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  #2061  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2018, 2:49 AM
jc_yyc_ca jc_yyc_ca is offline
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Originally Posted by Chinook Arch View Post
Since when are Mods supposed to push their politics on other members?
There is no reason why mods can’t be in the discussion with their own opinions and no reason why they need to be like the rest of the sheep who follow Farrell or one of the other flakes in council.
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  #2062  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2018, 4:15 AM
Corndogger Corndogger is offline
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There is no reason why mods can’t be in the discussion with their own opinions and no reason why they need to be like the rest of the sheep who follow Farrell or one of the other flakes in council.
Well said. And it's not like mods haven't always been involved in discussions.
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  #2063  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2018, 4:59 AM
milomilo milomilo is offline
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To be fair to Chu, that was him asking the question and the City Admin answering with $1.97B. A CBC reporter also tweeted the same number, plus added a value $390 million to go to North Pointe (which seems expensive for only about 2.5 km of track in a LRT-ready area plus station). Though, the City Admin hasn't exactly been accurate in its cost estimates.

https://twitter.com/CBCScott/status/864246865944088576

Add in a tunnel for the narrow part of Centre St and we're looking at $3B for a good NC line with a reasonable terminus, plus the cost to reach the populated communities for the deep SE. My concern is with such a cost, and given how long it took the city to assemble the original funding and other infrastructure needs is that the NC line won't be built for another generation.
I think tunneling would only have to go to 64th. After that there is a wider ROW, probably for this purpose, except inexplicably just before Beddington Trail where they have not left any room. And then it's plain sailing further north.
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  #2064  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2018, 5:05 AM
milomilo milomilo is offline
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Seems to me the delegation went to Seattle, Portland and Vancouver with their minds already made. Something they have to consider (and clearly have not) is that transit ridership in Canada is much higher than the US, so these tramways that work in Portland will not have the necessary capacity for Calgary.

Ottawa did the same thing, with the mayor and a few councilors visiting a few cities to compare systems and again, they already knew what they wanted to do here, so it wasn't much more than a series of free trip on the tax payers dime.

Based on the video, it seems they only considered Vancouver's Canada Line, not the whole Skytrain System. Seems like their methodology was pretty flawed.

I agree that elevated guideways can be an eyesore if not done correctly (Vancouver's hit or miss, mostly wide structures with huge pillars, while the Sunalta section in Calgary is as good as it gets with a narrower guideway and slim pillars).

The way I see it though, if you're going to build light rail on the street, having to stop at red lights and letting people cross the tracks, might as well build BRT. Pretty much the same capacity, but for much cheaper and offers more flexibility in case of an accident along the corridor.

I think Ottawa is doing it right (and that's a rare thing). We are using low floor lrt for maximum flexibility*. It allows us to build at grade where possible, but still fully grade separated. The system is built to rapid transit standards, with platforms at 90 meters surface, 120 underground, expandable to 150 meters, capacity ranging from 18,000 to a full build out of 24,000. The system is automated, but with a driver in case of emergency (one day, it could be fully automated like Vancouver).

One problem with a low floor system is that it makes it easier for people to walk on the rail right of way, either to cross the street, cross the station or maybe even accidentally stepping down form the curb/platform. Ottawa mitigated this two ways; 1. all stations have a barrier between the two tracks and 2. Tracks are not embedded in the concrete, but set on top of the bed, which makes for a 2-3 foot drop to the rail bed, so not as intimidating or dangerous as rapid transit, but high enough to deter people from stepping down on the tracks.

*Full disclosure, they chose low floor lrt in order to run the trains on the Ottawa River Parkway (now the John A. Macdonald Parkway). This is currently the bus route (temporary solution 35 years in), about 3 kilometers with no stations, bypassing some of the densest areas in Ottawa. With the new train line, 2 stations would have been added, but they would have been a long, cold hike away from development. Luckily, logic prevailed in the form of the National Capital Commission, a Federal Government body that owns the Parkway, forcing the City to come up with a different route. The City had a long, multi year debate similar to Calgary's with Centre Street (Carling Avenue vs. Richmond Road, surface, elevated or underground). Ottawa came up with what I was rooting for since years before, the Richmond Underground where the two stations could actually be integrated with the community. This link shows roughly what we're ending up with (a few modifications have been done since). The Sir John A. Parkway is the winding road on the north end of the diagram.
Ottawa has similarly chosen low floor some what arbitrarily. Granted it does give more flexibility in the future, but there does not seem to be any plans to have street running in Ottawa, so the point of low floor is...? The Confederation Line is completely grade separated, so all low floor does is reduce the in car space, and as you say it encourages people to walk on the tracks.

Is the Confederation Line going to be automated? It should be.
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  #2065  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2018, 5:25 AM
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GreaterMontréal GreaterMontréal is offline
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Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
Ottawa has similarly chosen low floor some what arbitrarily. Granted it does give more flexibility in the future, but there does not seem to be any plans to have street running in Ottawa, so the point of low floor is...? The Confederation Line is completely grade separated, so all low floor does is reduce the in car space, and as you say it encourages people to walk on the tracks.

Is the Confederation Line going to be automated? It should be.
for future phases, maybe once you reach the farthest suburbs, you don't need a fully grade separated right of way. The stations could be less ''big'' and less costly.
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  #2066  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2018, 5:49 AM
Rollerstud98 Rollerstud98 is offline
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Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
I think tunneling would only have to go to 64th. After that there is a wider ROW, probably for this purpose, except inexplicably just before Beddington Trail where they have not left any room. And then it's plain sailing further north.
I never really thought about that part of Centre St. They just going to run up the gut there and through the bus trap or what? I remember back in the day when they closed that part off for through traffic, added a bit of time to our drive from Airdrie to Co-op for groceries.
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  #2067  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2018, 6:37 AM
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Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
Ottawa has similarly chosen low floor some what arbitrarily. Granted it does give more flexibility in the future, but there does not seem to be any plans to have street running in Ottawa, so the point of low floor is...? The Confederation Line is completely grade separated, so all low floor does is reduce the in car space, and as you say it encourages people to walk on the tracks.

Is the Confederation Line going to be automated? It should be.

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Originally Posted by GreaterMontréal View Post
for future phases, maybe once you reach the farthest suburbs, you don't need a fully grade separated right of way. The stations could be less ''big'' and less costly.
The City has publicized the route plans for Kanata and Stittville (the final stretch, which will be to the west) and the line is once again fully grade separated thanks to elevated and below ground section so it will be fully grade separated from end to end.

The Confederation Line is automated however, a driver will still be needed (at least for now) in order to press a button every few seconds (sort of like a dead man switch) and react to any sort of unforeseen circumstance.

Yes, low floor means less space for standing room, but more seats, and since the line is essentially an overbuilt commuter rail to get suburbanites to downtown, it makes sense. That said, capacity is still more than enough for decades to come.

Since the Confederation Line tracks are installed over the track bed, it means their will be a two or three foot drop between the platform and track level, so no one will be walking over. Plus, barriers will be placed between tracks at every station.

Why low floor then; although the original reasoning, running at grade with mixed traffic in certain areas, will never materialize, I still feel that it offers cheaper alternatives in terms of infrastructure and flexibility (lower height required in tunnels and under overpasses, for example) than heavy rail and high floor lrt.
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  #2068  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2018, 8:38 AM
accord1999 accord1999 is offline
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Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
I think tunneling would only have to go to 64th. After that there is a wider ROW, probably for this purpose, except inexplicably just before Beddington Trail where they have not left any room. And then it's plain sailing further north.
Sorry if I was unclear, I meant that section below 64th when I said the narrow section. But now that you mention it, the part between Beddington Drive and Trail is as narrow or worse than anything on lower Centre St. The alignment document doesn't go into details about about the track there, so I guess no more street parking on that section?
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  #2069  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2018, 8:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Rollerstud98 View Post
I never really thought about that part of Centre St. They just going to run up the gut there and through the bus trap or what?

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  #2070  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2018, 9:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Rollerstud98 View Post
I never really thought about that part of Centre St. They just going to run up the gut there and through the bus trap or what? I remember back in the day when they closed that part off for through traffic, added a bit of time to our drive from Airdrie to Co-op for groceries.
That stupid bus trap always bugs me.
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  #2071  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2018, 9:33 AM
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Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
I find anything that Sean Chu is within 20 feet of is hard to take seriously, but in fairness 5km of tunneling will not be cheap (I think you'd only need to tunnel to 64th, after that there is ROW). But I'd rather we waited to figure out a proper solution to this than cheap out and ruin the whole line.
I totally agree.
Running surface up the middle of Centre St. north of 16th will be a disaster.

Last edited by craner; Jan 7, 2018 at 9:46 AM.
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  #2072  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2018, 5:45 PM
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I totally agree.
Running surface up the middle of Centre St. north of 16th will be a disaster.
That'll create quite a mess on 4th Street NW and Edmonton Trail too. Underground to just past 64th would be best.
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  #2073  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2018, 10:43 PM
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I think the concept of "best" also needs to have a flavour of value for money. Obviously underground will be seen as the best without considering value and timeline.

Is there a cost savings to be had with train underpasses at key locations (of which there are a handful) as opposed to bored underground w/ expensive and less accessible underground stations? I really did like the concept of lowfloor / activating ground level.
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  #2074  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2018, 11:33 PM
milomilo milomilo is offline
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Originally Posted by suburbia View Post
I think the concept of "best" also needs to have a flavour of value for money. Obviously underground will be seen as the best without considering value and timeline.

Is there a cost savings to be had with train underpasses at key locations (of which there are a handful) as opposed to bored underground w/ expensive and less accessible underground stations? I really did like the concept of lowfloor / activating ground level.
Absolutely value for money needs to be considered, I just wish Council would be honest when they pick a street running section over underground. Running the line at street level is objectively inferior to underground, as anyone who has used a proper metro would know. But there is one big advantage - cost, and that is the reason why this format would be chosen. Unfortunately a few members of council and modern urbanists have drank the koolaid and truly believe that a slow, unreliable streetcar is better than a fast, reliable grade separated train, as it is cute and urban. But the actual users of the line - commuters from the north, will not care less about the cutesy on Centre, they'll just be annoyed that their service has been cancelled again because of a collision.

'Activating ground level' is BS. This LRT will close the majority of intersections (so that it even has a hope of being reliable), which is going to make Centre St. a much less walkable place. It's also going to force two lanes of traffic into one, which despite what some would like to believe is not going to reduce traffic, it's just going to cause a long line of gridlocked cars - not my idea of a pleasant pedestrian experience.
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  #2075  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2018, 1:28 AM
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Originally Posted by speedog View Post
That'll create quite a mess on 4th Street NW and Edmonton Trail too. Underground to just past 64th would be best.
Well, might as well have it underground everywhere, but you might want to consider that someone has to pay for that.
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  #2076  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2018, 1:33 AM
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Maybe those members of council haven’t been drinking koolaid, but instead are grasping the reality of the situation. Unlike some people on this forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
Absolutely value for money needs to be considered, I just wish Council would be honest when they pick a street running section over underground. Running the line at street level is objectively inferior to underground, as anyone who has used a proper metro would know. But there is one big advantage - cost, and that is the reason why this format would be chosen. Unfortunately a few members of council and modern urbanists have drank the koolaid and truly believe that a slow, unreliable streetcar is better than a fast, reliable grade separated train, as it is cute and urban. But the actual users of the line - commuters from the north, will not care less about the cutesy on Centre, they'll just be annoyed that their service has been cancelled again because of a collision.

'Activating ground level' is BS. This LRT will close the majority of intersections (so that it even has a hope of being reliable), which is going to make Centre St. a much less walkable place. It's also going to force two lanes of traffic into one, which despite what some would like to believe is not going to reduce traffic, it's just going to cause a long line of gridlocked cars - not my idea of a pleasant pedestrian experience.
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  #2077  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2018, 3:10 AM
milomilo milomilo is offline
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Maybe those members of council haven’t been drinking koolaid, but instead are grasping the reality of the situation. Unlike some people on this forum.
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this, but, the reality of the situation is that when the people who actually are experienced in this field looked at the best way to build the green line, they chose an almost entirely grade separated line. I imagine some on council were hoping that they would have proposed a 40km tram from north to south was the best option and signed off on it, but luckily our transit planners are more competent.
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  #2078  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2018, 3:30 AM
Corndogger Corndogger is offline
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Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this, but, the reality of the situation is that when the people who actually are experienced in this field looked at the best way to build the green line, they chose an almost entirely grade separated line. I imagine some on council were hoping that they would have proposed a 40km tram from north to south was the best option and signed off on it, but luckily our transit planners are more competent.
That and a lot of public push back to the design of the first phase resulted in some major changes. There's absolutely NO question that Druh and her buddies wanted an all surface line. It's in the public record. It's hilarious but not unexpected that some are claiming we're the ones drinking the Kool-Aid. Druh's so addicted to the complete urban agenda that she's incapable of making rational decisions now. With new council members this is a good time to revisit some of the far from desirable decisions made concerning the Green Line. If we can't afford to build it right then we should wait.
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  #2079  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2018, 3:28 PM
DoubleK DoubleK is offline
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Nm

Last edited by DoubleK; Jan 8, 2018 at 3:30 PM. Reason: day late and a dollar short...
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  #2080  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2018, 3:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Corndogger View Post
That and a lot of public push back to the design of the first phase resulted in some major changes. There's absolutely NO question that Druh and her buddies wanted an all surface line. It's in the public record. It's hilarious but not unexpected that some are claiming we're the ones drinking the Kool-Aid. Druh's so addicted to the complete urban agenda that she's incapable of making rational decisions now. With new council members this is a good time to revisit some of the far from desirable decisions made concerning the Green Line. If we can't afford to build it right then we should wait.
I'm beginning to wonder if the whole green line isn't going to be a massive waste of taxpayer dollars. Not only from the standpoint of Druh and her kool aid buddies pushing their agenda, but from an overall basic, do we need to spend 4.5 Billion dollars?
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