Sports in Canadian culture

[mistercorporate]

Originally Posted by esquire

If we want to get into anecdotal observations, a good as place for those as any is the comment section of the Toronto Sun. It's clear that any Leafs story will generate tons and tons of commentary. Everyone and their dog weighs in on the latest Leafs news. Any Jays and Raptors story will also have a number of comments. The Argos, TFC and Rock might have at most a few, if any, comments per story.

The point is that anyone who thinks that TFC is surging in popularity with hordes of devoted followers probably needs a reality check.

There you guys go again with your world-class logic, the Toronto Sun is a joke newspaper, given out freely at construction sites and factories in the GTA, and well read among right wing nutjobs. Toronto FC attracts a completely different demographic. TFC attracts a younger and more educated demographic and a good chunk of their supporters are also women. I have nothing against the CFL but some of their supporters are so myopic and illogical that it blows the mind, at least you guys haven't gone down the path of Toronto-bashing which is quite common with CFL fans nowadays...

I've lost track of "F**k Toronto!" type rants in various media/forums by CFL fans. It seems that the city is always to blame for the Argos providing a crappily branded and promoted product. Toronto has a reputation in North America for fiercely supporting their teams even if they suck on the field, but the Argos are flopping here so suddenly we're a s**t sports town, rightttt...

[esquire]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

There you go again with your world-class logic, the Toronto Sun is a joke newspaper, given out freely at construction sites and factories in the GTA, and well read among right wing nutjobs, Toronto FC attracts a completely different demographic. TFC attracts a younger and more educated demographic and a good chunk of their supporters are also women.

Whether you agree with the Sun's editorial views or not, you can't deny that it is an influential newspaper when it comes to sports coverage.

So where can I find the equivalent amount of commentary and fan engagement for TFC? I checked the Star's sports page and it's no different. This article about TFC's most recent game had all of 2 comments.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/tfc/20...road_test.html

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

I think soccer just has deeper roots in Vancouver. The Whitecaps won the Soccer Bowl in 1979 during the heyday of NASL. And Vancouver is a vital part of the hottest, fiercest and longest rivalry in North American professional soccer, the Cascadia Cup, a decades-old, 3-way derby with the soccer-mad cities of Seattle and Portland.

Meh obviously Cascadia is prime time for MLSE, but I dont think its a soccer things.

You have to remember that many of the soccer mad folk in toronto, are immigrants who watch multiple soccer leagues. Epl is high on the list obviously, but there are so many others on that list.

Completely ignoring the fact that the blue jays overshadow everything else.

I think if you dont live there its hard to appreciate how much they dominate, Id bet money for residents of the actual city proper the blue jays are more popular than the leafs.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Stryker

I think if you dont live there its hard to appreciate how much they dominate, Id bet money for residents of the actual city proper the blue jays are more popular than the leafs.

I find that hard to believe. If it was ever true, it would have only been from about 1989-1994 when the Skydome was new and glamorous, Jays hysteria was at its peak, and the Leafs were just starting to get out of their post Harold Ballard funk.

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

I still maintain that those 820,000 viewers for the Toronto/BC game are mostly from the prairies.

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

Estimating the proportion of viewership coming from a market based on your gut feeling is opinion.

Exactly. So it's no less plausible to assume the 820,000 viewers that watched the Toronto/Vancouver game in fact came from Toronto and Vancouver, the actual two cities competing in the game, rather than a third province that has no connection to the game.

I wonder how many people from the little province of Saskatchewan your gut believes comprised the 956,000 viewers that watched last October's regular season game between the Toronto Argonauts and the Hamilton Tiger-Cats. Every man, women and child?

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

Half a million people watching from the prairies seems quite reasonable since many are bound to follow more than one team. 60% of CFL merchandise sales is of Riders gear yet Riders-nation is less than 3% of our countries population! How are the prairies not the dominant fanbase of this league?

Your full of it. I'm from the prairies and I didn't watch either Argo game last week.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

Can't argue with you there.

I wonder how many men, women and children from the little province of Saskatchewan your gut believes comprised the 956,000 viewers that watched last October's regular season game between the Toronto Argonauts and the Hamilton Tiger-Cats.

My recollection is fuzzy, but didn't Brad Wall declare a holiday so that everyone in Sask could watch that game?

[mistercorporate]

Originally Posted by Stryker

Meh obviously Cascadia is prime time for MLSE, but I dont think its a soccer things.

You have to remember that many of the soccer mad folk in toronto, are immigrants who watch multiple soccer leagues. Epl is high on the list obviously, but there are so many others on that list.

Completely ignoring the fact that the blue jays overshadow everything else.

I think if you dont live there its hard to appreciate how much they dominate, Id bet money for residents of the actual city proper the blue jays are more popular than the leafs.

Yeah, Cascadia is definitely soccer mad but let's not forget that Toronto is the city that brought real soccer fan culture to North America, Don Garber credits them for ushering in MLS 2.0 (fan culture and sold out soccer-specific stadiums).

Here's how BMO reacted after the first TFC goal (MLS had never seen anything like it, watch 38 seconds in):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhXLf2zkhGA

55,000 TFC fans going nuts at the Skydome:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPOQKIIHjgc

Now the magic is back, sold out home game in a freezing March afternoon:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaAT-jg0OwM

[FrankieFlowerpot]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

55,000 TFC fans going nuts at the Skydome:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPOQKIIHjgc

A little bit of an over exaggeration there

http://www.thestar.com/sports/soccer...rs_centre.html

Let's not get carried away with the fact that for 2-3 years before this season - BMO Field was half empty for some games. There were a lot less butts in seats than the attendance that was claimed

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

Now the magic is back [for Toronto FC]

Last weekend's Top 20 Canadian Sports Broadcasts:

1. CFL, Lions at Argonauts, Sunday, TSN: 820,000

2. CFL, Alouettes at Roughriders, Saturday, TSN: 737,000

3. MLB, Blue Jays at White Sox, Sunday, Sportsnet: 633,000

4. MLB, Blue Jays at White Sox, Friday, Sportsnet: 583,000

5. MLB, Blue Jays at White Sox, Saturday, Sportsnet: 580,000

6. CFL, Eskimos at RedBlacks, Friday, TSN: 547,000

7. CFL, Stampeders at Ticats, Saturday, TSN: 490,000

8. Soccer, Women's u-20 World Cup final, Canada vs. Germany, Saturday, CBC: 461,000

9. Auto racing, NASCAR Pure Michigan 400, Sunday, TSN: 276,000 (Fox audience not measured)

10. Soccer, Women's u-20 World Cup, Korea vs. U.S., Saturday, CBC: 247,000

11. PGA, Wyndham Championship final round, Sunday, Global: 216,000

12. Soccer, Manchester City at Newcastle, Saturday, TSN: 190,000

13. Rugby, Women's World Cup final, Canada vs. England, Sunday, TSN2: 172,000

14. PGA, Wyndham Championship third round, Saturday, Global: 168,000

15. Soccer, Whitecaps at Chivas, Saturday, TSN: 155,000

16. Soccer, Crystal Palace at Arsenal, Saturday, Sportsnet: 139,000

17. UFC, Bader vs. St. Preux, Saturday, Sportsnet360: 138,000

18. Soccer, Tottenham at West Ham, Saturday, Sportsnet: 133,000

19. Tennis, ATP Western and Southern Open semifinal, Saturday, Sportsnet: 101,000

20. Soccer, Swansea at Manchester United, Saturday, Sportsnet: 90,000

Toronto FC played on the weekend too but didn't attract enough viewers to register in the Top 20. Which is no surprise, because three weeks ago, TFC managed to attract only 22,000 viewers nationwide. That's less viewers than re-runs of lumberjack sports.

DOG OF THE WEEK: Saturday's MLS game between Toronto FC and Sporting Kansas City drew a paltry 22,000 viewers to TSN2. Even by TFC's low standards for television, that's alarmingly low considering how much MLSE has invested in this team. It truly is a bizarre situation, with the team selling out its stadium but unable to attract flies to its TV product.

If anyone was hoping for a bump in interest after the World Cup, it obviously didn't happen.

The answer: maybe the only ones who care are the 20,000 who show up at BMO Field.

https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/eh...211841537.html

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

A good chunk of TFC viewers stream games on MLS Live. ...

And Whitecaps fans in Vancouver don't have access to streaming? Maybe they don't. Anyone know?

[mistercorporate]

All MLS teams have access to streaming, but TV viewership for TFC looks suspect given how good their metrics are otherwise, it's entirely possible it's due to the way our games are rotated among at least 3-4 channels. Not sure if the Whitecaps have a similar situation but it's also quite possible the Whitecaps have more TV viewers. I only take exception to those who state categorically that the Argos are more popular than TFC, utter BS.

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

I only take exception to those who state categorically that the Argos are more popular than TFC, utter BS.

You think it's utter BS. But you continuously fail to reconcile your personal belief in the popularity of TFC with the empirical data, which objectively demonstrate that as few as 22,000 people in the entire country actually watch a TFC game. Meanwhile, the Argos attract between 600,000 to 900,000 viewers per week.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

All MLS teams have access to streaming, but TV viewership for TFC looks suspect given how good their metrics are otherwise, it's entirely possible it's due to the way our games are rotated among at least 3-4 channels.

I'd agree with the notion that this is a factor. The CFL's ratings shot up after it went exclusively with TSN. It was a vast improvement over the numbers that it pulled when games where split between TSN, CBC, SN and The Score.

Not sure if the Whitecaps have a similar situation but it's also quite possible the Whitecaps have more TV viewers. I only take exception to those who state categorically that the Argos are more popular than TFC, utter BS.

More popular? Perhaps not. As popular? Hard to argue given the numbers for TV ratings and attendance.

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

TV viewership for TFC looks suspect...

There is nothing suspect about it. It's an objective fact. It just doesn't fit with your assumptions about the popularity of TFC.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

You think it's utter BS. But you continuously fail to reconcile your personal belief in the popularity of TFC with the empirical data, which objectively demonstrate that as few as 22,000 people in the entire country actually watch a TFC game. Meanwhile, the Argos attract between 600,000 to 900,000 viewers per week.

Not saying this is what you are suggesting, but there is a difference between TFC and Argos games in that TFC generally play American teams. The Argos play only Canadian teams so you get the Argos fans plus their opponents' fans showing up in the Canadian ratings. TFC ratings (usually for games with American teams) don't include their opponents' fans.

That said, even if only half or even one third of the people watching an Argos vs. X game are from the GTA, that's still way more than the TFC ratings. By a longshot.

The idea that out of 600-900 k for an Argos vs. X game that less than 22,000 of those are in the GTA, is totally preposterous.

[esquire]

It's funny that despite having cold, hard numbers to mull over, mistercorporate just cannot accept the fact that the Argos draw on the order of 25 to 40 times the per-game TV viewership that TFC gets.

[mistercorporate]

Totally preposterous unless you live here. It's like someone telling you that a Montreal based lacrosse team are the most popular sports team in Montreal, eventhough you never see or hear about them anywhere. Absolutely no visibility, and the only thing the people making the claim have are the national TV numbers. National TV ratings isn't equivalent to local popularity especially when the lack of local popularity is so apparent to anyone who lives here. Argos territory must begin North of Newmarket or East of Oshawa because i see nothing to indicate a presence here otherwise, regardless of "national" TV ratings. Give me local TV ratings that show they're more popular and you guys will get a convert, until then it's just hot air.

[FrankieFlowerpot]

I also highly dispute the fact that a good chunk of TFC fans watch the games on MLS Live.

Aren't most TFC games (the ones on TSN and TSN2) blacked out anyway?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

I went for a walk around town yesterday evening and saw 3 different people with TFC gear and about a half dozen with Blue Jays gear, all within a couple hours. I have yet to see someone wear Argos gear in this city after 20+ years of living here. Please continue to minimize the opinions of Torontonians who insist that there's hardly anyone here who follows or watches the Argos. The Jays, Leafs and TFC are common water cooler talk, the Argos are nowhere to be seen but in these interpretations of media stats from CFL fanboys on this message board...

I am not trying to make excuses here but aside from the fact that some (not saying you do) go out of their way to ignore the CFL, there are a few things about merchandising and visibility that are not as anecdotal as what I just referred to.

For starters, the CFL absolutely sucks at merchandising. It's better than it was before when it did not know what the word merchandising meant. But it still sucks at merchandising. The only teams that get merchandising are Saskatchewan obviously, and to a lesser degree Montreal.

MLS merchandising follows the hyperdriven American pro sports merchandising model. They know what they are doing. Since a rising tide lifts all boats, TFC and L'Impact (and I assume the Whitecaps) benefit from this. I see more Impact gear and promo items here in Gatineau, in Montreal and across Quebec than I do Alouettes stuff. And yet I still believe the Alouettes have a bigger following than L'Impact. By a decent margin.

Also, soccer is "in" among the hipster crowd. It's very 21st century, worldly, cosmopolitan. CFL, especially in Toronto, is not. Obviously TFC have a decent fan base of real soccer fans but they also have a bunch of "fashionable" fans. The Argos don't.