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  #161  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2019, 2:26 AM
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Yeah, let this be the first and let the next office tower get the height council wants.
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  #162  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2019, 4:23 AM
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Originally Posted by phesto View Post
This is hilarious. So City Council is going to try to force them to build a larger building? How exactly?

The height is one thing, but the building would be the equivalent of one of the largest in Downtown Vancouver by square footage. It's more than large enough for the current office market in Surrey and mayor and council should be jumping for joy that they have a developer willing to take on this risk. Instead, they're going to try to delay the process to get them to build more space?
Well, that's why Vancouver's downtown is fast becoming the backwater of the region. I'm sure the developer will compromise with the City eventually. But I like Surrey's vision for its City centre.

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Originally Posted by Cypherus View Post
I can see from an urban planning point of view that it is best to maximize density on the lot. But this is unusual for MetroVancouver. Not sure if the developer is going to commence with the proposal if they cannot obtain the financing to build a taller building. Design as it stands is great, so if the developer wants they can add the extra 15-20 floors on top of the upper setback in order to minimize costs, all while achieving the height expectations. Something like this (excuse the bad mockup)

Oh my, this will look terrific at that location.
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  #163  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2019, 4:48 AM
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It's a backwater with 110 000 people living in 2.2 square miles, and still growing faster than any other municipal "downtown' in the region.
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  #164  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2019, 5:03 AM
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Originally Posted by logan5 View Post
It's a backwater with 110 000 people living in 2.2 square miles, and still growing faster than any other municipal "downtown' in the region.
In terms of office space, currently adding over five times more space than all the other municipal Downtowns added together.
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  #165  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2019, 5:31 AM
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Originally Posted by logan5 View Post
It's a backwater with 110 000 people living in 2.2 square miles, and still growing faster than any other municipal "downtown' in the region.
Numbers? Even if true, that's only because there is hardly any growth outside Vancouver's downtown. Same thing cannot be said about Surrey, and its population growth within and outside Surrey Central will definitely boost its downtown development. Fact is that Surrey is building a bold city centre and should be really exciting in the next few years to see.

https://jaksview3.files.wordpress.co...popgrowth1.jpg

The city needs an iconic office tower as a major landmark on King George Highway, and a tall and larger City Central Tower 2 is totally appropriate.

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Originally Posted by Changing City View Post
In terms of office space, currently adding over five times more space than all the other municipal Downtowns added together.
Fact is there used to be no alternatives other than downtown Van, but now and in the near future, there will be lots more elsewhere, and quality ones too. Vancouver's own laggard attitude makes this possible.
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  #166  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2019, 7:40 AM
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Grumpy night.
People (Vin & others) should be satisfied giving their thoughts and opinions, but stop short of claiming to know shit they obviously don't have a proper understanding of. An expert opinion is easy to spot . . . as are non-expert opinions.
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  #167  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2019, 7:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Marshal View Post
Grumpy night.
People (Vin & others) should be satisfied giving their thoughts and opinions, but stop short of claiming to know shit they obviously don't have a proper understanding of. An expert opinion is easy to spot . . . as are non-expert opinions.
Why don't you share your "understanding", sir, instead of just blabbering stuff that doesn't contribute to anything?
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  #168  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2019, 9:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Vin View Post
Why don't you share your "understanding", sir, instead of just blabbering stuff that doesn't contribute to anything?
Surrey central hasn't reached critical mass yet to justify a much taller office tower honestly. Council should also consider context. That entire block is getting a huge boost in business draw and it isn't like this tower is the ONLY office tower being built.

There is another office tower being built across from Surrey Memorial with the Innovation Boulevard looking to expand by 5 additional towers all the way up to Fraser Highway, all Office.

You then have to include The Hub which is building an 10(12? I forget), office tower across from Coast Capital. This is a LOT of office space to fill up. Heck Coast Capital still has available space for lease and they only had to deal with 4 floors, not 25...

3 Civic which was built right in the heart of Surrey Central could only justify 4 floors for office. It is a tall tower, tallest in Surrey Central, and 95% of that is residential. Why? Because they couldn't justify it. Regular people are stupid enough to pay a huge premium for "a view" they rarely look at. Businesses are not.

So the demand is simply not there and I trust the developer far more with respect to understanding the market conditions and what makes sense right now. Afterall, they are the ones ponying up the money to build this tower and taking the risk. Surrey council is not.

I am 100% in agreement with those that say the city really isn't in a position to be super demandy right now. Would I love that corner to have a 750 foot mega tower? Sure why not. But it doesn't make sense and there is _A LOT!!!_ of empty space through the rest of Surrey Central that will still be filling up 50 years from now.

Downtown Vancouver is well over 100 years old and is still building towers, and tall ones today. It's not like if this tower gets built, we're dooming tall towers in the future. And let's be honest, how many of Downtown Vancouver's mega tall towers are right on a major block corner? And what does that even mean when Surrey Central has an expanded road network? Shangri La is on the corner of Georgia and Thurlow... not extremely major. Wall Center, Hornby and Nelson. List goes on if you look at where they are located. Surrey can have a super tall anywhere and that corner and block will become a new focal point. It's not a mad rush.

The only reason Council thinks this is a major corner is because Surrey Central has frankly a shitty road network that is grossly inefficient and barely meets the traffic needs of today overemphasizing a few "corners" throughout the area.
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  #169  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2019, 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by jhausner View Post
Surrey central hasn't reached critical mass yet to justify a much taller office tower honestly. Council should also consider context. That entire block is getting a huge boost in business draw and it isn't like this tower is the ONLY office tower being built.

There is another office tower being built across from Surrey Memorial with the Innovation Boulevard looking to expand by 5 additional towers all the way up to Fraser Highway, all Office.

You then have to include The Hub which is building an 10(12? I forget), office tower across from Coast Capital. This is a LOT of office space to fill up. Heck Coast Capital still has available space for lease and they only had to deal with 4 floors, not 25...

3 Civic which was built right in the heart of Surrey Central could only justify 4 floors for office. It is a tall tower, tallest in Surrey Central, and 95% of that is residential. Why? Because they couldn't justify it. Regular people are stupid enough to pay a huge premium for "a view" they rarely look at. Businesses are not.

So the demand is simply not there and I trust the developer far more with respect to understanding the market conditions and what makes sense right now. Afterall, they are the ones ponying up the money to build this tower and taking the risk. Surrey council is not.

I am 100% in agreement with those that say the city really isn't in a position to be super demandy right now. Would I love that corner to have a 750 foot mega tower? Sure why not. But it doesn't make sense and there is _A LOT!!!_ of empty space through the rest of Surrey Central that will still be filling up 50 years from now.

Downtown Vancouver is well over 100 years old and is still building towers, and tall ones today. It's not like if this tower gets built, we're dooming tall towers in the future. And let's be honest, how many of Downtown Vancouver's mega tall towers are right on a major block corner? And what does that even mean when Surrey Central has an expanded road network? Shangri La is on the corner of Georgia and Thurlow... not extremely major. Wall Center, Hornby and Nelson. List goes on if you look at where they are located. Surrey can have a super tall anywhere and that corner and block will become a new focal point. It's not a mad rush.

The only reason Council thinks this is a major corner is because Surrey Central has frankly a shitty road network that is grossly inefficient and barely meets the traffic needs of today overemphasizing a few "corners" throughout the area.
Build it and they will come.
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  #170  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2019, 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Vin View Post
Build it and they will come.
Plus it will be like 3-5 years by the time this building is built and gets its occupancy permit plus fit-outs and all so the market for office space may well be totally different by then. Also, theoretically the sky train will have extended to Fleetwood by the time this building is done so maybe more offices will set up shop in this building as a result. Brexit and Hongkong instability may mean more need for space in the future as well.
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  #171  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2019, 5:18 PM
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Great to see City of Surrey having the courage to tackle an issue that most councils in the area run away from. Definitely a welcome change to Vancouver's attitude of too tall/too bright/too loud/too soon/ etc etc that stifles the full potential of the city.

Municipalities that have Skytrain in them need to maximize the usage of areas immediately adjacent or even reasonably close to stations. Vancouver has failed miserably with this. Good to see Surrey showing that there is hope in the region yet.

First a local police force, now this? Was never a fan of McCallum, but I'm beginning to think I may have misjudged him
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  #172  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2019, 6:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Changing City View Post
In terms of office space, currently adding over five times more space than all the other municipal Downtowns added together.
And that number is only going to get more stark. Downtown Vancouver is set to pull further away from other municipal town centres as more major projects, some yet to be announced, break ground.

While suburban cores have done a good job promoting high-rise buildings, they have been low in density and lacking meaningful commercial components, leading them to be more of a bedroom community to downtown's role as employment centre of the region.
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  #173  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2019, 6:48 PM
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Originally Posted by LeftCoaster View Post
And that number is only going to get more stark. Downtown Vancouver is set to pull further away from other municipal town centres as more major projects, some yet to be announced, break ground.

While suburban cores have done a good job promoting high-rise buildings, they have been low in density and lacking meaningful commercial components, leading them to be more of a bedroom community to downtown's role as employment centre of the region.
What's your take on this proposal, and Surrey Council's rejection? At 567,000 sq ft it already seemed pretty ambitious, and 25 floors presumably created a reasonably space efficient project. Adding more floors to the existing design would add more cost and they would be building even more space, into an uncertain market. (I'm referring to demand for relatively expensive space in Surrey, not in Metro Vancouver overall). Reconfiguring the building to just add height would make it less efficient overall, so they would need even higher rents to get a reasonable return. The cost to build their project must have been close to a quarter of a billion dollars, so it seems like a high risk investment project already, unless they have potential tenants lined up.
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  #174  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2019, 6:58 PM
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If the owner were pressured to increase it but still submitted at this size then they definitely don't feel as though the market is there for a bigger building. Developers take space that is offered to them if there is a viable market 99% of the time.

I think this will get negotiated with the City, and unless Surrey is prepared to offer incentives to go higher it will either get pulled or go through as is.

Forcing a developer to build bigger doesn't work, there's just too much risk of a major loss.
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  #175  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2019, 7:29 PM
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Originally Posted by LeftCoaster View Post
If the owner were pressured to increase it but still submitted at this size then they definitely don't feel as though the market is there for a bigger building. Developers take space that is offered to them if there is a viable market 99% of the time.

I think this will get negotiated with the City, and unless Surrey is prepared to offer incentives to go higher it will either get pulled or go through as is.

Forcing a developer to build bigger doesn't work, there's just too much risk of a major loss.
Thanks. It's always good to have the perspective of someone who understands how the market works in reality. The only incentive I could think of working would be for the City to guarantee to take whatever additional space might be needed to add height. As they recently built the City Hall nearby with more than enough space for some time, that seems unlikely.

It'll be interesting to see if the project moves forward at all, and if so, how it changes.
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