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  #1  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2023, 4:40 PM
BCTed BCTed is offline
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Kitchener is leaving Hamilton in the dust

While Hamilton definitely has had something of a building boom going on, loads of the developments are crappy generic pre-cast Lego builds.

Kitchener has a lot of really nice-looking stuff on the go, and the heights are impressive. Twelve buildings of 40+ stores are either under construction or proposed. Another eleven buildings of 30-39 stores are either very recently built, under construction, or proposed.

Kitchener database: https://skyscraperpage.com/cities/?cityID=323

Hamilton database: https://skyscraperpage.com/cities/?cityID=307
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  #2  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2023, 5:30 PM
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Kitchener is growing faster so it’s not a surprise.

I wouldn’t say the architecture is better though - the university area is full of aweful architecture. In fact I would say Hamilton is doing a better job overall with the Toronto development industry taking interest in the city, which isn’t happening in Kitchener, and bringing with them more sophisticated designs. Think Emblem, Core, and Slate, all big toronto firms bringing good quality designs to the city. Plus we have Core Urban locally.

Sure we have Vranich, but there are Vranich equivalents in Kitchener too. I’d argue there are more of them there, actually.

They have taller stuff because they don’t have a downtown height limit like Hamilton. If Hamilton didn’t have the height limit we would be getting lots of stuff in the 40 storey range too.

Kitcheners stuff is also a lot more spread out - Hamilton has 44 buildings over 15 storeys proposed or under construction in the downtown right now.

Last edited by Innsertnamehere; Jul 22, 2023 at 6:58 PM.
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  #3  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2023, 5:32 PM
BCTed BCTed is offline
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Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere View Post
Kitchener is growing faster so it’s not a surprise.

I wouldn’t say the architecture is better though - the university area is full of aweful architecture.

They have taller stuff because they don’t have a downtown height limit like Hamilton. If Hamilton didn’t have the height limit we would be getting lots of stuff in the 40 storey range too.
Some of the Kitchener stuff looks great. Would be fun to do away with the height limit for any quality projects.
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  #4  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2023, 6:12 PM
bigguy1231 bigguy1231 is offline
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Originally Posted by BCTed View Post
Some of the Kitchener stuff looks great. Would be fun to do away with the height limit for any quality projects.
All it's going to take is one developer to push the issue at the OLT and the height restriction will be gone. Especially along the LRT corridor.
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  #5  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2023, 7:10 PM
TheRitsman TheRitsman is offline
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All it's going to take is one developer to push the issue at the OLT and the height restriction will be gone. Especially along the LRT corridor.
That's already happened and nothing changed.
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  #6  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2023, 9:52 PM
Pulkvedis Pods Pulkvedis Pods is offline
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This discussion shows that the SSP gods are peeking inside my head! My wife and I just took a trip to St. Jacob's Farmers' Market and that gave me a chance to glance at the skyline(s) of KW. I have to say the view from Highway85 around where the Manulife building is over towards the university area is very odd. I remarked to my wife that it looks like a forest floor after a big rainfall - the buildings are arrayed like mushrooms.
Just weird, and I agree that those residential towers architecturally are awful. To avoid some of the back ups, and just for the fun of it we took King St a bit down the north end of Waterloo on the way back, and despite the LRT passing through, the area looks like a tundra, yuck-a-doodle-doo. But what concerns the central parts of the urban core of KW, it leaves a much better impression than our ambiguously beloved Hamilton. There is also just a sense of the landscape being much better taken care of. Why can't there be an elementary level of upkeep and cleanliness along our central streets!?
Anyway, let's see what the next couple of years bring to Hamilton and to KW, these are heady times.
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  #7  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2023, 12:34 AM
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Not to take away from Kitchener at all but I think once the LRT has been in operation here for a few years like it has been there, we'll be seeing the same kinds of buildings start popping up. Now that the empty lots downtown are finally starting to get used, there will be more push to build up higher.
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  #8  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2023, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by matt602 View Post
Not to take away from Kitchener at all but I think once the LRT has been in operation here for a few years like it has been there, we'll be seeing the same kinds of buildings start popping up. Now that the empty lots downtown are finally starting to get used, there will be more push to build up higher.
That's the thing, KW saw this boom once construction on their LRT started and completed. We are seeing the boom long before our LRT has even started imagine when it's nearing completion and finally completed, I think things will get nuts we haven't seen anything yet!?

I'm sure we will blow the lid off the height limit very soon.
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  #9  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2023, 2:24 PM
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don't forget they're also building a brand new state of the art downtown GO and VIA Station that intersects with the LRT line. KW is decades ahead of Hamilton in so many ways unfortunately.
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  #10  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2023, 2:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BCTed View Post
While Hamilton definitely has had something of a building boom going on, loads of the developments are crappy generic pre-cast Lego builds.

Kitchener has a lot of really nice-looking stuff on the go, and the heights are impressive. Twelve buildings of 40+ stores are either under construction or proposed. Another eleven buildings of 30-39 stores are either very recently built, under construction, or proposed.

Kitchener database: https://skyscraperpage.com/cities/?cityID=323

Hamilton database: https://skyscraperpage.com/cities/?cityID=307
The quality being built in Kitchener isn't fantastic. It's arguably worse than most being built in Hamilton (with the exception of some of Vranich's duds):
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  #11  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2023, 7:04 PM
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While KW definitely is undergoing a highrise boom a lot of it leaves much to be desired. Parts of it (Waterloo in particular) look like SimCity. It does have a feel like a new money city and the tech boom has definitely helped it feel of more importance than it otherwise would.

As StEC stated, KW really took off with the ION light rail. Hamilton is going into 30 storey tower development mode without the LRT built yet. To me, height is less important than creating a good public realm and adding hundreds of more residents (per building) to the core of the city. The Pier 8 redevelopment should have a showpiece ~45 storey tower right on the waterfront if all goes according to current plans.

Having been there last year, I do like the LRT and how Kitchener and Waterloo feel more connected. There were new or newer restaurants, bars, a speakeasy, barcade, interesting places to go.They also have a great regional museum w/historic village onsite. I give KW credit as it feels cleaner and more upkept than Hamilton.

From an urban core perspective, compared to KW, Hamilton is ahead because it's almost always been a top 10 largest Canadian city from 1871 to today, most of that time as #5 or #6 largest. It just has a much larger city feel that KW does not. (my biggest Hamilton pet peeve is King and Main streets being 1 way)

Hamilton has a historic built environment and impressive historic residential housing stock that cities such as KW, Edmonton, Calgary never had. From dense street rows of working class housing to middle and upper income tree-lined streets of tightly packed brick housing to palatial, grand mansions (that would be cost prohibitive to replicate today), inner city Hamilton is a really interesting place to go walking into the old city neighbourhoods. I love that the earliest Scottish merchants and inhabitants left Hamilton with a collection of residential/commercial stone buildings as well.

Neighbourhoods like Durand are very impressive with large houses and mansions built from the 1870s to 1920s.
Video Link


Hamilton also has the Niagara escarpment dividing the city in roughly half with many hiking trails and waterfalls, and Lakefront. Better proximity to Toronto, Niagara and Buffalo.
I'll take that over a river city any day

Video Link


List of largest Canadian cities by census 1871-2021
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ties_by_census

Last edited by Wigs; Jul 23, 2023 at 7:38 PM.
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  #12  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2023, 10:19 PM
kwoldtimer kwoldtimer is offline
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Originally Posted by TheHonestMaple View Post
don't forget they're also building a brand new state of the art downtown GO and VIA Station that intersects with the LRT line. KW is decades ahead of Hamilton in so many ways unfortunately.
In theory. No sign of it yet.
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  #13  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2023, 11:52 PM
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Gotta keep in mind that in addition to the B-Line LRT, the HSR Re-Envision project should also see all sorts of new high density nodes pop up across the city. West Harbour, Centennial GO, Winona, Southeast Mountain, etc in additional to pretty much all the LRT stops. I think Parkdale Ave in particular will be really interesting to watch transform since the LRT stop is supposed to become a major hub for east end bus routes. Opening an LRT route is one thing but transforming and enhancing your entire public transit network at the same time is just a city changer.
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  #14  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2023, 2:56 AM
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Opening an LRT route is one thing but transforming and enhancing your entire public transit network at the same time is just a city changer.
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  #15  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2023, 12:44 PM
ccheck7 ccheck7 is offline
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Waterloo Region has also quickly surpassed Hamilton in terms of cycling infrastructure, especially all ages cycling facilities. I was amazed last summer at the network of multi-use paths they're constructing across the Region, as well as their downtown cycling grid. You can get across much of the City without ever having to cycle in traffic.
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  #16  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2023, 1:09 PM
HamiltonBoyInToronto HamiltonBoyInToronto is offline
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Originally Posted by Wigs View Post
While KW definitely is undergoing a highrise boom a lot of it leaves much to be desired. Parts of it (Waterloo in particular) look like SimCity. It does have a feel like a new money city and the tech boom has definitely helped it feel of more importance than it otherwise would.

As StEC stated, KW really took off with the ION light rail. Hamilton is going into 30 storey tower development mode without the LRT built yet. To me, height is less important than creating a good public realm and adding hundreds of more residents (per building) to the core of the city. The Pier 8 redevelopment should have a showpiece ~45 storey tower right on the waterfront if all goes according to current plans.

Having been there last year, I do like the LRT and how Kitchener and Waterloo feel more connected. There were new or newer restaurants, bars, a speakeasy, barcade, interesting places to go.They also have a great regional museum w/historic village onsite. I give KW credit as it feels cleaner and more upkept than Hamilton.

From an urban core perspective, compared to KW, Hamilton is ahead because it's almost always been a top 10 largest Canadian city from 1871 to today, most of that time as #5 or #6 largest. It just has a much larger city feel that KW does not. (my biggest Hamilton pet peeve is King and Main streets being 1 way)

Hamilton has a historic built environment and impressive historic residential housing stock that cities such as KW, Edmonton, Calgary never had. From dense street rows of working class housing to middle and upper income tree-lined streets of tightly packed brick housing to palatial, grand mansions (that would be cost prohibitive to replicate today), inner city Hamilton is a really interesting place to go walking into the old city neighbourhoods. I love that the earliest Scottish merchants and inhabitants left Hamilton with a collection of residential/commercial stone buildings as well.

Neighbourhoods like Durand are very impressive with large houses and mansions built from the 1870s to 1920s.
Video Link


Hamilton also has the Niagara escarpment dividing the city in roughly half with many hiking trails and waterfalls, and Lakefront. Better proximity to Toronto, Niagara and Buffalo.
I'll take that over a river city any day

Video Link


List of largest Canadian cities by census 1871-2021
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ties_by_census
This 100%
Hamilton feels like a proper city, which, KW will never
The urban density and geographical set up has all the makings to potentially make Hamilton one of Canada's greatest cities ... our historical importance and location are unparalleled in Ontario and our people are proud and humble
Nothing worse than going to a city full of assholes because they think they're better than everyone else (nudge nudge Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver)
I think in the next few years Hamilton will really become a city that is taken more seriously
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  #17  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2023, 1:23 PM
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Hamilton's biggest problem is it's public realm - it's what gives it such a terrible reputation. The natural assets get hidden by the overwhelming feeling of poor public realm maintenance.

fix the roads, the crumbling parks, and get a lot of the prominent buildings renovated, and Hamilton will shine. The buildings are already well on their way to getting fixed.. now we gotta fix the rest.
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  #18  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2023, 6:03 PM
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The 40 storey towers are new (looser zoning to prove the LRT's investment) however, the investor boom has been going on much longer in Kitchener Waterloo than Hamilton. This is basically a skyline poll. It's fine if you think another hundred 40 storey towers built to the same standards as these first few built in downtown Kitchener are going to make the place an urban oasis. I'm less optimistic. It would be a spectacular skyline of mediocre spandrel towers in an oppressive environment like a CBD. I recall the threads on how to make CBDs 24 hours before 30 storeys became commonplace. Much of the discussion centred on usages that engage street level. There was also a fair amount of discussion on the environment. People would still gravitate to human scaled neighbourhoods even if street level inter-connectivity was on point. To keep from getting to sidetracked, I would think Hamilton's potential to attract investment is greater than KW being more connected to Toronto. Kitchener/ Waterloo's main attraction are the universities with their expansive international student populations but, Hamilton has a university too.
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  #19  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2023, 6:09 PM
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I should have looked first. The database is really slow on this device. By the By, it shows how meaningless proposed is

This is Hamilton under construction.

https://skyscraperpage.com/diagrams/?searchID=101986851

This is KWC under construction

https://skyscraperpage.com/diagrams/?searchID=101986833

I think you need to rethink who is leaving who in the dust.
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  #20  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2023, 3:58 AM
mikevbar1 mikevbar1 is offline
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Going to be honest, being from Hamilton and going to school in Waterloo, this is both meaningless and fairly unconstructive as a post because of how different these cities are, and what the point of this forum is. As much of the other commenters have shown, there is significant nuance to what makes a city 'good', and certainly more criteria than what is being looked at.

I am going to speak from a mix of first-hand and objective POV. Firstly, being in KW makes you realize that the city is booming, which obviously is why Hamilton is getting left in the dust. There is more money around to do things that make it feel nice, and new development is really good at affecting people's perceptions of a place. The iON is a big piece of this, but as commenters have said, most of the development around it has come after it was built. Clearly, if the market sees something in Hamilton before we even have shovels in the ground, then there is something innate to the city that is desirable about it, not just explosive growth or new transit to leverage.

I agree with that market sentiment; Hamilton has the best urban bones in this province outside of Toronto, and in my humble opinion can compete in at least a handful of dimensions. Hamilton slowed down and KW picked up since WWII, but you can't change history. If people want those organic urban environments, KW is not going to scratch that itch the same way Hamilton can; we do so almost against all odds given the state of the public realm. There manages to be plenty of activity around, yet by every statistical measure the lower city is still nowhere near the population of the 1970s, never mind the 1950s.

Speaking of metrics, let's not assume urban growth always accrues velocity- no city's future is guaranteed, so I don't want to give to much credence to who is projected to be bigger than whom or who has more towers going up; Hamilton has one single downtown, KW-C has three and some change. None of them could become as vibrant as downtown Hamilton could- its just a matter of size and dispersal. If you appreciate growth at all scales, KW cannot compete outside of skyscrapers. Furthermore, I have more confidence in Hamilton's long-term stability based on what's being planned in terms of industry. KW, as a University/Tech town, runs the risk of becoming dependent on one industry for growth. We've been there, done that. In any case, I don't hold my breath for 50-story towers in Cambridge.

And let's be clear; KW-C is/are doing exactly what every other growing municipality with money in this province is doing- bike lanes, transit service, and planning density. But with that comes a lack of experience in doing things well, and a big capacity for missteps. It is not cash-strapped Hamilton that struggles with implementing bikeshare programs. Is anyone going to make a thread saying "wow, Richmond Hill is decades ahead of Hamilton"? Because Highway 7 is certainly a marvel, but I wouldn't call it good. Likewise, the iON is great, but its utility as a transit service is secondhand to being a development stimulator. And the student housing compound is extremely depressing once you get an eye for what cheap architecture and public realms actually look like.

Frankly, though (and I think this is the most important part), Hamiltonians don't really think about KW at all... we are more preoccupied with comparing ourselves to Toronto. Who we view as our peers is completely different from KW (often places in the US), and the things we do (and how we do them) are often completely different. I think It's a situation where the realities of places are so disconnected, and visibly so, that even if on paper they should be comparable, under the hood they are not at all. This is not to say KW is bad, or that you are wrong for thinking what you do, but only on the surface level could someone's takeaway from KW be that it is a place Hamilton could even compare itself to, much less try and learn from or compete with.

Something that will dispell this myth of whos growing and who isnt is looking at the UT development map. And yes, it does update for KW fairly often: https://urbantoronto.ca/map/
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