Time for Vancouver to Tear Down Its Viaducts?

[Canadian Mind]

Originally Posted by cabotp

Of course what if a group of workers registers a car as a car pool. To not have to pay for the Toll. Now what if the worker who owns the car. Decides to drive into downtown alone on the weekend or a weekday. They should be charged. But they won't be because the system will think it is a HOV.

Well is it better that you promote HOV practice during rush hour, or discourage SOV usage in the after hours?

You could have a time slot assigned, basically the car must enter downtown between the hours of 6am and 9am, and leaves between the hours of 3pm and 6pm.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by Canadian Mind

Well is it better that you promote HOV practice during rush hour, or discourage SOV usage in the after hours?

You could have a time slot assigned, basically the car must enter downtown between the hours of 6am and 9am, and leaves between the hours of 3pm and 6pm.

Personally I feel that an HOV should just pay the same amount as a SOV. An automobile is and automobile no matter how many people are in it.

The difference is with a SOV crossing a $5 toll. That person would pay $5 alone. With a HOV 2 people would be paying $2.50 each. More people in the automobile the more the toll is split.

Long term you would hope to get people to stop using the automobile to come downtown if possible.

[Canadian Mind]

Originally Posted by cabotp

Personally I feel that an HOV should just pay the same amount as a SOV. An automobile is and automobile no matter how many people are in it.

The difference is with a SOV crossing a $5 toll. That person would pay $5 alone. With a HOV 2 people would be paying $2.50 each. More people in the automobile the more the toll is split.

Long term you would hope to get people to stop using the automobile to come downtown if possible.

Makes sense. I'm kinda on the fence.

While not discriminating between HOV and SOV trips would make implimenting a toll much easier, you might have less people enticed to carpool because the savings difference to them is not as much anymore. And in turn, would have more vehicles over all in the form of SOV trips verses having less vehicles when people carpool.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by Canadian Mind

Makes sense. I'm kinda on the fence.

While not discriminating between HOV and SOV trips would make implimenting a toll much easier, you might have less people enticed to carpool because the savings difference to them is not as much anymore. And in turn, would have more vehicles over all in the form of SOV trips verses having less vehicles when people carpool.

While more HOV would be nice.

The better option would be to get those people who where in their SOV onto transit and not into a HOV.

Although I do realize that some people still have to drive Downtown. They maybe someone who as an office there but needs to drive around to other places. Example might be the Realtor.

[Canadian Mind]

Originally Posted by cabotp

While more HOV would be nice.

The better option would be to get those people who where in their SOV onto transit and not into a HOV.

Although I do realize that some people still have to drive Downtown. They maybe someone who as an office there but needs to drive around to other places. Example might be the Realtor.

That is the better option. But there are many people, me included, that have a bit of a phobia of transit and would much prefer to carpool with a buddy or 2 vice taking the bus. Now if the only benefit is that we split the toll, I'm just gonna drive myself cause it'll only cost an extra 2.50 a day. That's a medium Starbucks price for total independence and freedom vice hitching a ride per day, and an X-large to stay off transit.



For the people that have to drive downtown, they could register that driving downtown is a "requirement" of their job, and as such are either not tolled, or they can receive a tax credit for total dollars lost.

I'd prefer a system where you just aren't tolled if you register though. Imagine if your job required you to drive into and out of downtown several times daily. Would suck having to absorb $500 a month because you are on-off the peninsula 5 times per day, even if you do get $6 000 back later at some point during the year.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by jlousa

...Traffic has been declining YOY with the viaducts still in place, so why try and force change? Change is always best when it isn't forced and occurs organically. Give us more transit options, give us better bike lanes and most people will reduce their driving. I dislike tolls as a method, when raising gas taxes and parking taxes accomplishes the same thing more uniformly.

Is that statistic based on traffic declining into downtown Vancouver? That's not necessarily a sign of health, if its means fewer jobs being created in the downtown core, relative to the rest of Metro. I also wonder if there are stats showing the amount of cars leaving downtown during the morning rush hour?

My beef with the Liveable Region plan is that it has always risked depriving the Lower Mainland of one "destination" downtown core, and replacing it with several ho-hum city centres. The reason downtown Vancouver has the Art Gallery, BC Place and GM Place is because it was seen as the centre of the region. We're already seeing an erosion of the destination retail in downtown Vancouver.

[Canadian Mind]

As a part of declining traffic to/down from downtown, I think to judge the overall health of downtown you have to look at the overall numbers, including those using transit, walking, and cycling, etc. Then compare their growth/decline compared to the rest of the region.

If the overall number of people for whom downtown is a destination is declining or static (compared to a quickly growing region), then I think we have a problem.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by Canadian Mind

That is the better option. But there are many people, me included, that have a bit of a phobia of transit and would much prefer to carpool with a buddy or 2 vice taking the bus. Now if the only benefit is that we split the toll, I'm just gonna drive myself cause it'll only cost an extra 2.50 a day. That's a medium Starbucks price for total independence and freedom vice hitching a ride per day, and an X-large to stay off transit.



For the people that have to drive downtown, they could register that driving downtown is a "requirement" of their job, and as such are either not tolled, or they can receive a tax credit for total dollars lost.

I'd prefer a system where you just aren't tolled if you register though. Imagine if your job required you to drive into and out of downtown several times daily. Would suck having to absorb $500 a month because you are on-off the peninsula 5 times per day, even if you do get $6 000 back later at some point during the year.

I'd be more inclined to just wave the toll fee for the "registered" vehicle.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by Canadian Mind

As a part of declining traffic to/down from downtown, I think to judge the overall health of downtown you have to look at the overall numbers, including those using transit, walking, and cycling, etc. Then compare their growth/decline compared to the rest of the region.

If the overall number of people for whom downtown is a destination is declining or static (compared to a quickly growing region), then I think we have a problem.

Another factor is what about those people who have decided to move downtown. Who were already working downtown. Now they don't commute to downtown. And yet the number of workers hasn't dropped. Also they are more likely to shop downtown as well.

[Canadian Mind]

Originally Posted by cabotp

Another factor is what about those people who have decided to move downtown. Who were already working downtown. Now they don't commute to downtown. And yet the number of workers hasn't dropped. Also they are more likely to shop downtown as well.

Even if you live downtown AND work downtown, downtown is still your destination.

Is there a regional census? If not, the thought is that every 5 years a regional census would be done where such things as your normal commute patterns are collected. Would give a better sense of how the region is growing and changing.

[BCPhil]

There is no need for a toll to enter downtown. That just introduces pointless overhead to the system. It would also drive away some business from people entering the core for a meal or for shopping. Downtown is still part of the City of Vancouver, why should people be punished for heading to their city core? Should there be a tax for people in Burnaby heading to Metrotown or people in Surrey heading for City center?

If you are entering downtown in non peak hours there is hardly any traffic at all. Why punish people who are bringing in dollars for business?

It would be much more cost effective to further tax parking stalls. If it were expensive to park downtown, less people would drive downtown. That's why modeshare is already at 49% to 49%, because the cost of transit is less than the cost of parking for some. But I still know a lot of places where it's cheap to park all day. If you don't work in the financial core, driving is still cost comparable to transit.

[Canadian Mind]

Not punishment for going downtown, punishment for taking a car downtown vs. using transit.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

There is no need for a toll to enter downtown. That just introduces pointless overhead to the system. It would also drive away some business from people entering the core for a meal or for shopping. Downtown is still part of the City of Vancouver, why should people be punished for heading to their city core? Should there be a tax for people in Burnaby heading to Metrotown or people in Surrey heading for City center?

If you are entering downtown in non peak hours there is hardly any traffic at all. Why punish people who are bringing in dollars for business?

It would be much more cost effective to further tax parking stalls. If it were expensive to park downtown, less people would drive downtown. That's why modeshare is already at 49% to 49%, because the cost of transit is less than the cost of parking for some. But I still know a lot of places where it's cheap to park all day. If you don't work in the financial core, driving is still cost comparable to transit.

What is the difference between someone paying at $5 toll to drive into downtown versus them having to pay $5 more for a parking stall. If in both cases their destination is downtown.

A toll of course would punish those who are driving through downtown where as a parking fee would not.

[Stingray2004]

Originally Posted by Canadian Mind

Not punishment for going downtown, punishment for taking a car downtown vs. using transit.

FWIW, nearly 250,000 vehicles pass through downtown Vancouver everyday - almost double the daily traffic over the Port Mann Bridge.

One has to travel thru downtown Vancouver from Washington State, White Rock/South Surrey, Delta, Richmond and the south and west sides of Vancouver proper to go to the North Shore, Horseshoe Bay Ferry Terminal, and Squamish/Whistler. And vice versa.

Any thought of a "toll" to/thru the downtown core is political/economic suicide.

[jlousa]

The parking tax can be implemented cheaply w/o no additional overhead, the toll could not. Hence why all things being equal a parking tax and/or gas tax is preferable.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by Stingray2004

FWIW, nearly 250,000 vehicles pass through downtown Vancouver everyday - almost double the daily traffic over the Port Mann Bridge.

One has to travel thru downtown Vancouver from Washington State, White Rock/South Surrey, Delta, Richmond and the south and west sides of Vancouver proper to go to the North Shore, Horseshoe Bay Ferry Terminal, and Squamish/Whistler. And vice versa.

Any thought of a "toll" to/thru the downtown core is political/economic suicide.

If one is coming up from Washington state or White Rock/South Surrey etc. I feel it is better to actually take the Iron workers bridge than it is to travel through downtown.

Not sure how a toll would be economic suicide if someone is only driving through downtown. It isn't as if they were going to stop to buy something. All they are doing is adding one more car going through downtown that really doesn't need to be there.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by jlousa

The parking tax can be implemented cheaply w/o no additional overhead, the toll could not. Hence why all things being equal a parking tax and/or gas tax is preferable.

I would agree that a toll would be more expensive to implement versus a parking or gas tax. Considering the later two are already implemented. In those cases all you need to do is change a few numbers or paper work as it were.

While a toll would be more expensive to implement at the beginning. It would have the added benefit of targeting more people who drive downtown. Especially those who drive through downtown.

[cornholio]

In my case if it gets even more expensive to drive downtown then I simply wont go downtown and I will bring my dollars elsewhere, so simple. I dont have infinit time to waste on Transit, transit is virtually useless for 90% of the people. I will not waste 45min to get to say Robson and Denman from my new place at Main and Broadway when I can make the same trip in 10-15min by car. If you charge a 5 dollar toll I will gladly head elsewhere, almost everything that is downtown is everywhere else.

just my view on tolls and I think most people out there will share it.

If you want to tax something then implement a gass tax, but be prepared to offset costs to businesses that do business here by choice.

[geoff's two cents]

Originally Posted by cornholio

I dont have infinit time to waste on Transit, transit is virtually useless for 90% of the people. I will not waste 45min to get to say Robson and Denman from my new place at Main and Broadway when I can make the same trip in 10-15min by car. If you charge a 5 dollar toll I will gladly head elsewhere, almost everything that is downtown is everywhere else.

Of course, tolls could be designed to be extremely low outside of rush hour, which would help offset your $5 toll concerns.

However, even if, for all the reasons you point out, tolling isn't considered for the immediate future, my hunch is that, 10 or 20 years from now, city businesses would be able to afford losing the business of the occasional disgruntled driver, all the better to serve a burgeoning influx of transit riders on more effective, partially toll-funded rapid transit infrastructure.

[Alex Mackinnon]

If the tolls are extremely cheap at off-peak times then an even higher percentage of the cost goes to administration. Woot effectiveness!

What's this burgeoning amount of transit users tied to? The streetcar? The UBC skytrain line? This argument is going downhill fast.