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  #101  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2018, 3:07 PM
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Originally Posted by mistercorporate View Post
A 22 year old speeding in a Ferrari in Vancouver? That's certified Chinese expat
Exactly, the name, the outfit (!), the car, the location and of course the mask to save face for daddy who is paying for it all and is likely a corrupt party official or businessman tied to the party. Does Xi Jinping have a snitch line for his anti corruption campaign?
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  #102  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2018, 3:18 PM
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Maybe he had a big zit? Or no chin?
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  #103  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2018, 4:50 AM
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That's true for most of the world with one enormous, elephant-in-the-room sized exception. The UN predicts that Africa's population will double between now and 2050 and double again from 2050 and 2100. The population of sub-Saharan Africa is projected at 4 billion by the end of the century, as opposed to 1 billion today. Nigeria will be closing in on China in population by then. So I wouldn't think that we've heard the end of immigration pressure, particularly in Europe.
Kinda tough to say. We're talking about over 80 years and if Nigeria is closing in on China then it's because China's population has dropped significantly.
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  #104  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2018, 9:27 PM
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I would like to see:

- Significant increase in the number of refugees admitted to Canada.

- Free university for citizens and international students.

- Permanent residency for international students who successfully graduate from a Canadian university.

- Significant increase in the annual immigration target, from the current 300,000 annually to 500,000 annually.

- Citizens of the UK, Australia, New Zealand, the US and France should be cap-exempt (meaning that immigrants from these countries won't count against the 500K target). Consider adding more countries to the cap-exempt list as time goes on.

- Relaxing the rules around family reunification and encouraging family reunification in general.

- General relaxation of requirements; shift gradually to a system where the default is that you will be allowed to move to Canada, but that Canada can reject applicants for cause (rather than the current system, where the default is that you are not allowed to move to Canada unless you are granted the privilege to do so at Canada's sole and absolute discretion with no recourse).

- International cooperation for the purpose of ensuring reciprocal recognition of credentials.
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  #105  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2018, 9:31 PM
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Originally Posted by saffronleaf View Post
I would like to see...
Why?
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  #106  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2018, 9:51 PM
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Originally Posted by saffronleaf View Post
- International cooperation for the purpose of ensuring reciprocal recognition of credentials.
This should be done on a case-by-case basis though. Canadian professional orders will never accept (and they're right) that anyone can just show up with a bogus diploma obtained in some banana republic and immediately be their professional equal on paper.
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  #107  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2018, 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
This should be done on a case-by-case basis though. Canadian professional orders will never accept (and they're right) that anyone can just show up with a bogus diploma obtained in some banana republic and immediately be their professional equal on paper.
I agree that it should be done on a case by case basis.

But then, it should be the reputation or recognition of the school that counts, not the country of origin. There should be lists of accepted, legit institutions.

After all, there are "diploma mills" providing bogus diplomas that can be paid for, even in countries like the US.

So, we shouldn't pass over a person with a degree that's from a high quality school in a developing country and favor a person from a developed country with a mediocre or even poor quality school over him/her (not sure if that's how it works or not).
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  #108  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2018, 12:01 AM
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Originally Posted by saffronleaf View Post
I would like to see:

- Significant increase in the number of refugees admitted to Canada.

- Free university for citizens and international students.

- Permanent residency for international students who successfully graduate from a Canadian university.

- Significant increase in the annual immigration target, from the current 300,000 annually to 500,000 annually.

- Citizens of the UK, Australia, New Zealand, the US and France should be cap-exempt (meaning that immigrants from these countries won't count against the 500K target). Consider adding more countries to the cap-exempt list as time goes on.

- Relaxing the rules around family reunification and encouraging family reunification in general.

- General relaxation of requirements; shift gradually to a system where the default is that you will be allowed to move to Canada, but that Canada can reject applicants for cause (rather than the current system, where the default is that you are not allowed to move to Canada unless you are granted the privilege to do so at Canada's sole and absolute discretion with no recourse).

- International cooperation for the purpose of ensuring reciprocal recognition of credentials.
International students getting free tuition? I mean, money is the whole point in having them in the first place. I suppose if it were free we'd have to be more selective which would certainly be a good thing but...

I guess the reasons behind some of your ideas aren't as self-evident as you might believe.

How about encouraging Canadians to have larger families so you don't need to do any of the things you listed above?
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  #109  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2018, 12:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Dr Awesomesauce View Post
International students getting free tuition? I mean, money is the whole point in having them in the first place. I suppose if it were free we'd have to be more selective which would certainly be a good thing but...

I guess the reasons behind some of your ideas aren't as self-evident as you might believe.

How about encouraging Canadians to have larger families so you don't need to do any of the things you listed above?
Exactly.

And given that international students are avoiding Trump's America, we should be squeezing them until their pips squeak. Maximum dollar extraction!
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  #110  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2018, 6:25 PM
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Originally Posted by saffronleaf View Post
I would like to see:

- Significant increase in the number of refugees admitted to Canada.

- Free university for citizens and international students.

- Permanent residency for international students who successfully graduate from a Canadian university.

- Significant increase in the annual immigration target, from the current 300,000 annually to 500,000 annually.

- Citizens of the UK, Australia, New Zealand, the US and France should be cap-exempt (meaning that immigrants from these countries won't count against the 500K target). Consider adding more countries to the cap-exempt list as time goes on.

- Relaxing the rules around family reunification and encouraging family reunification in general.

- General relaxation of requirements; shift gradually to a system where the default is that you will be allowed to move to Canada, but that Canada can reject applicants for cause (rather than the current system, where the default is that you are not allowed to move to Canada unless you are granted the privilege to do so at Canada's sole and absolute discretion with no recourse).

- International cooperation for the purpose of ensuring reciprocal recognition of credentials.
Especially given your post history, which includes weird dom/sub language talking about Alberta's place in confederation, this reads as an intentional pot stirring with no basis in legitimate beliefs.
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  #111  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2018, 6:38 PM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
This should be done on a case-by-case basis though. Canadian professional orders will never accept (and they're right) that anyone can just show up with a bogus diploma obtained in some banana republic and immediately be their professional equal on paper.
The diploma mills exist in Canada too. International students pay a lot of money to go to school here and the reality is that the more money you have the more flexible standards are. I've seen students in third year classes at major universities who can barely speak English. It's easy to transfer credits into the major schools from sketchy colleges. If you have lots of money and mediocre ability you can get credentials that look pretty good.

The other reality of post-secondary education is that much of its value comes from signalling, not just the skills that students learn. I don't think it's true to any significant degree that business and arts graduates generate economic growth beyond what would have existed had they not gotten their degrees.

A corollary to these facts is that there's not much gain to be had for Canada giving PR to this crowd unless we feel we have a shortage of labour, which seems pretty dubious given how real wages have been stagnant or in decline in Canada for decades (and the fact that all our wealth supposedly comes from shipping oil through pipelines; why would we want to divide that up amongst more people?). I predict that if we let in a ton of international students we'd just get a country where menial jobs require master's degrees, not a huge increase in economic activity per capita. We are already far down that path.

Last edited by someone123; Apr 28, 2018 at 6:50 PM.
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  #112  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2018, 6:42 PM
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Originally Posted by saffronleaf View Post
- Citizens of the UK, Australia, New Zealand, the US and France should be cap-exempt (meaning that immigrants from these countries won't count against the 500K target). Consider adding more countries to the cap-exempt list as time goes on.
A reason to do this would be that maybe the flows in and out would roughly balance. In the best case there wouldn't be a lot of demographic drawbacks but more people would get to live where they want. I am not sure I'd permanently move away but the idea of easily working in the UK or Australia for a couple years seems neat.

It's not a guarantee that this is how it would play out though. I think it has the most chance of success currently with Australia and New Zealand. I don't think it's a great idea with the US because of proximity, the huge size imbalance, and differences in income distribution and quality of life between the two countries. Unless other things change, your proposal amounts to us agreeing to pay for healthcare for the poorest X% of Americans.
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  #113  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2018, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
This should be done on a case-by-case basis though. Canadian professional orders will never accept (and they're right) that anyone can just show up with a bogus diploma obtained in some banana republic and immediately be their professional equal on paper.
For sure. It would have to be done carefully. But professional orders shouldn't be purposefully protectionist for the sake of the job prospects of their members. If there are equivalent foreign credentials, they ought to be recognized. I think the US does a better job of this at least in respect of certain professions. Heck, you can go to law school at UofT and sit for the New York bar exam, no issues. The reverse? It's a much longer process -- about a year to take certain exams (con law, civ pro, crim pro) before you're eligible to sit for the bar in Ontario.
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  #114  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2018, 10:16 PM
saffronleaf saffronleaf is offline
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Originally Posted by Dr Awesomesauce View Post
International students getting free tuition? I mean, money is the whole point in having them in the first place. I suppose if it were free we'd have to be more selective which would certainly be a good thing but...

I guess the reasons behind some of your ideas aren't as self-evident as you might believe.

How about encouraging Canadians to have larger families so you don't need to do any of the things you listed above?
I agree that international students are currently viewed as a source of money to help offset domestic students' tuition.

However, I think we can view it differently, too. International students who graduate from Canadian universities can be an excellent source of immigrants. They will be highly educated and well-positioned to contribute to Canada in many ways. Canada could become an important global hub for education, and focus on building economic clusters centered on its universities (like Kitchener-Waterloo to a limited extent).

And it's not entirely absurd, there are European countries that offer highly subsidized or free tuition for international students.
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  #115  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2018, 10:21 PM
saffronleaf saffronleaf is offline
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Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
A reason to do this would be that maybe the flows in and out would roughly balance. In the best case there wouldn't be a lot of demographic drawbacks but more people would get to live where they want. I am not sure I'd permanently move away but the idea of easily working in the UK or Australia for a couple years seems neat.

It's not a guarantee that this is how it would play out though. I think it has the most chance of success currently with Australia and New Zealand. I don't think it's a great idea with the US because of proximity, the huge size imbalance, and differences in income distribution and quality of life between the two countries. Unless other things change, your proposal amounts to us agreeing to pay for healthcare for the poorest X% of Americans.
While I would like to see more open borders down the line, what I'm proposing would be a unilateral exemption from the annual cap in respect of specified countries. They would still need to "earn" immigration through the points system for economic immigrants (or qualify for refugee status or arrive as an international student or on a work visa etc.) It wouldn't be conditioned on reciprocity -- e.g., Canadians don't need to be cap-exempt for immigration to the US (or any other country) (although to be clear Canadians are effectively cap-exempt for immigration to the US if they were born in Canada).

All cap-exempt means is that they won't be counted against the 500K target. They still have to meet whatever criteria applicable to the existing channels of immigration.

Last edited by saffronleaf; Apr 28, 2018 at 10:33 PM.
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  #116  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2018, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
Why?
I guess there's two broad reasons.

One is more consequential in nature -- I think immigration and a higher population in general can help develop Canada's institutions, make Canada more economically competitive, help Canada secure international relations objectives, and overall improve the standard of living in Canada.

The other is more to do with what I think is right from a moral standpoint. I think as a default that humans should be allowed to live and work where they please. This isn't an alien notion -- most OECD countries guarantee freedom of mobility within their country, and supranational entities like the EU hold the same dearly. Greater freedom of mobility also helps support values like equality of opportunity. The birth lottery is one of the biggest things beyond anyone's control that dramatically affects your fate. You didn't choose where you were born or to whom you were born or whether you should be born. There's no merit to be ascribed to the neonate for being born in Canada, and no fault to be ascribed to the neonate for being born in Yemen. Nevertheless, such occurrences, which are of no merit or fault of the neonate, control to a significant extent his or her fate in life.

A dramatic overnight overhaul of the current geopolitical order will likely result in chaos, but I think we should gradually move in the direction of being less restrictive in this respect.
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  #117  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2018, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by saffronleaf View Post
While I would like to see more open borders down the line, what I'm proposing would be a unilateral exemption from the annual cap in respect of specified countries. They would still need to "earn" immigration through the points system for economic immigrants (or qualify for refugee status or arrive as an international student or on a work visa etc.) It wouldn't be conditioned on reciprocity -- e.g., Canadians don't need to be cap-exempt for immigration to the US (or any other country) (although to be clear Canadians are effectively cap-exempt for immigration to the US if they were born in Canada).
Canada does not have per-country caps on immigration, nor does your score depend explicitly on which country you were born in or live in when applying.

There are a bunch of different streams but the way the Express Entry system works is that when you apply you are given a score and entered into the "pool". The pool is actually effectively a ranked list. There are periodic "draws" that consist of the federal government picking a number N and then inviting the top N people on the list to come to Canada. They don't pick a score and then invite everyone at that score or higher. There is no doubt some discretion involved as well; I don't think they always strictly invite the top N. Then we also have occasional ad hoc invitations like what happened with the Syrian refugees. But there are no explicit rules like "we only let in 100,000 people per year from China".
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  #118  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2018, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by GlassCity View Post
Especially given your post history, which includes weird dom/sub language talking about Alberta's place in confederation, this reads as an intentional pot stirring with no basis in legitimate beliefs.
Might wanna go further back in my post history? I'm sure a couple others can vouch that I've pretty consistently been pro-immigration.
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  #119  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2018, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
Canada does not have per-country caps on immigration, nor does your score depend explicitly on which country you were born in or live in when applying.

There are a bunch of different streams but the way the Express Entry system works is that when you apply you are given a score and entered into the "pool". The pool is actually effectively a ranked list. There are periodic "draws" that consist of the federal government picking a number N and then inviting the top N people on the list to come to Canada. They don't pick a score and then invite everyone at that score or higher.
I know Canada does not have per-country caps, but it does have an aggregate target range (currently ~300K). Immigrants from cap-exempt countries wouldn't count against that.
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  #120  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2018, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by saffronleaf View Post
I know Canada does not have per-country caps, but it does have an aggregate target range (currently ~300K). Immigrants from cap-exempt countries wouldn't count against that.
The scoring goes hand-in-hand with the overall quota. They are functions of each other, given a pool of applicants.

It sounds to me that you are proposing we set a score instead of picking a number. If you picked a score of 441 in the last draw the outcome would have been the same as the choice to issue 3,500 invitations. The question of where to arbitrarily set the score cutoff is equivalent to asking how many invitations we should give out, all else being equal.

I suspect the reality is that competition for highly skilled immigrants is growing, and it wouldn't be possible for Canada to greatly expand the number of people who are allowed to immigrate without lowering standards (which are currently only slightly above those of younger middle class Canadians).
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