Winnipeg City Transit/Rapid Transit

[Only The Lonely..]

What's interesting about street cars is the system Portland bought was roughly equal in cost ($65 million Cdn) to what we had budgeted for the first leg of a BRT system.

[furiousmcd]

I'm glad that I managed to spark some interest in this topic again! I no longer want to pay these insane gas prices to fill a Jeep Liberty every week and I would really be thrilled to see rapid transit here. When will Winnipeg get with the 1960's and implement some type of high quality transit here instead of constantly dodging the reality of the world around us?

With that said, I notice that a few of you have mentioned building a subway system here.

I agree with parts of the argument for a subway. I believe that the stations along any route we build should be designed for all seasons and that speed should be a primary design factor and not just cost or ease to implement. Rapid transit is supposed to send a loud message that the city is ready to grow smarter and put forth a serious effort to improve downtown. This is not something that should simply be done in the cheapest and easiest way possible because it indicates a lack of commitment or care.

However, people must realize that the only reason subways have fallen out of favour in these modern times is because they are very expensive. There is no debating that they are an extremely fast and effective form of transportation. If cities like Toronto and even New York have trouble constructing new lines because of high costs, I don't see why this would be any different for Winnipeg. We saw people complaining about the cost of a 50 million dollar bus rapid transit line; I couldn't imagine the backlash for a subway system that would, in all likelihood, near or exceed a billion dollars.

Aiming too high by ignoring logistic and economic realities produces the same problem seen when we only focus on keeping the cost as low as possible like the Rapid Transit Task Force seemed to do. Instead, all factors including speed, cost, and comfort need to be considered. We will not be able to fix our city by simply copying the ideas of others. Calgary, Minneapolis, Toronto, and Montreal are all very different cities than Winnipeg and we need to realize that simply transplanting their systems here is not the answer.

This is the reason that I decided to show you several different rapid transit technologies in my previous post. We have got to stop thinking about what Vancouver or Calgary has and start thinking about what will work for us - what will work here.

My personal favourite is the Aerobus.
http://www.aerobus.com/home.html

It offers the speed and comfort of a monorail system without the high construction costs and ugly poles that loom over the streetscape.

Anyways, my point is that it is unfair to simply ignore the opinions of those people who say that something like a subway would cost too much. Regardless of whether or not you think that is reasonable, you have to admit that cost needs to be an important part of any major project like this. We need to start innovating to address both sides of this argument instead of recklessly throwing money at it or doing the least possible.

[LilZebra]

Originally Posted by furiousmcd

However, people must realize that the only reason subways have fallen out of favour in these modern times is because they are very expensive. There is no debating that they are an extremely fast and effective form of transportation. If cities like Toronto and even New York have trouble constructing new lines because of high costs, I don't see why this would be any different for Winnipeg. We saw people complaining about the cost of a 50 million dollar bus rapid transit line; I couldn't imagine the backlash for a subway system that would, in all likelihood, near or exceed a billion dollars.

"...subways have fallen out of favour"? Huh?

Montreal opened a $745 M extension last month to its Metro subway line to Laval in the form of three new stations. It took 9 years to complete (1998-2007).

Vancouver is building the Canada Line, which is totally underground and will serve the suburb of Richmond and the Vancouver Int'l Airport. This will be completed in time for the 2010 Winter Olympics.

And finally Toronto has recently received $800 M funding for the extension to York U, and this is mainly if not totally underground. Project will be complete by ~2014.

[furiousmcd]

What I meant by "fallen out of favour" was unclear, I admit. I meant that very few cities are deciding to build a new subway system because of extremely high costs of construction. Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal and elsewhere are pretty much stuck with their past decisions. Toronto has actually decided to go for LRT to Scarborough and the North York BRT because these corridors have less passenger traffic.

But for the Spadina line extension, neither LRT or BRT is a viable option because of the high passenger capacity it requires. That project will cost Toronto about 2 billion dollars for a little less than 9 km of track; 700 million will be provided from both the Feds and the Provincial government. I would call that excessive.

The only places these days that create new subway systems are cities with very little space and very high population densities. They are almost forced to go underground because at grade construction is unreasonable and they require the huge capacity that heavy rail offers. Copenhagen, is a good example of this with its new metro. However, Winnipeg has plenty of open space leaving us open to explore various other options.

[Alva360]

New Flyer signs deal for 715 buses

New Flyer Industries has signed a deal to produce up to 715 buses for an American public transit agency in a deal that could be worth as much as US $514 million.

The Winnipeg-based manufacturer was recently awarded a contract for 22 hybrid buses and up to 493 diesel or hybrid buses for King County Metro in Seattle. The contract also includes up to 200 "assignable option" buses.

In 2003, Kind County ordered 213 hybrid buses from New Flyer, the largest-ever order of hybrid buses at the time.

"This is very gratifying for New Flyer," said New Flyer president and CEO John Marinucci in a press release. "It shows tremendous confidence in our innovative hybrid product line."

New Flyer is one of the leading manufacturers of heavy-duty transit buses in North



This continues to boggle my mind on how we keep on building all these high tech buses for other cities and the majority of our buses are still the old diesel buses. How can this be? wouldn't this city want to show off what we produce here in our own city? And also, show that we care about our environment.......

[rgalston]

Originally Posted by drew

At grade along the previous streetcar lines that existed throughout the city (and around which the city grew) would be my choice for the first and most important leg of a "rail"based transit system.
This would be by far the most bang for the buck in terms of visible impact and public perception of transit...

Completely agree: any new transit plan must be able to make a direct, positive impact on Winnipeg's old urban, transit-oriented neighborhoods; making commerce and residence along the old "main streets" of downtown and urban neighborhoods (Corydon, Sargent, Selkirk, etc) desirable again.

Transit must serve people and commerce. Abandoned or under-used rail rights-of-ways might be the path of least resistance, but how will an abandoned right-of-way serve the corner of River and Osborne? Portage and Arlington? City Hall? Sargent and Balmoral? Euclid and Main?

The current third-rate scheme for "bus rapid transit" and their "quality corridors" will actually make downtown and neighborhood commercial streets less desirable, eliminating on-street parking (bye-bye, residents and shops) while making the pedestrian environment less enjoyable (unless people like getting splashed by a bus going 60 km/h a few feet away from the sidewalk). Bus rapid transit is a traffic engineer's dream, and an urbanist's nightmare.

[flatlander]

Originally Posted by Alva360

New Flyer signs deal for 715 buses

New Flyer Industries has signed a deal to produce up to 715 buses for an American public transit agency in a deal that could be worth as much as US $514 million.

The Winnipeg-based manufacturer was recently awarded a contract for 22 hybrid buses and up to 493 diesel or hybrid buses for King County Metro in Seattle. The contract also includes up to 200 "assignable option" buses.

In 2003, Kind County ordered 213 hybrid buses from New Flyer, the largest-ever order of hybrid buses at the time.

"This is very gratifying for New Flyer," said New Flyer president and CEO John Marinucci in a press release. "It shows tremendous confidence in our innovative hybrid product line."

New Flyer is one of the leading manufacturers of heavy-duty transit buses in North



This continues to boggle my mind on how we keep on building all these high tech buses for other cities and the majority of our buses are still the old diesel buses. How can this be? wouldn't this city want to show off what we produce here in our own city? And also, show that we care about our environment.......

I think there are some hybrids on the way but haven't been delivered yet. At least one is articulated I believe?

[Kitty Surprise]

Originally Posted by rgalston

Completely agree: any new transit plan must be able to make a direct, positive impact on Winnipeg's old urban, transit-oriented neighborhoods; making commerce and residence along the old "main streets" of downtown and urban neighborhoods (Corydon, Sargent, Selkirk, etc) desirable again.

Transit must serve people and commerce. Abandoned or under-used rail rights-of-ways might be the path of least resistance, but how will an abandoned right-of-way serve the corner of River and Osborne? Portage and Arlington? City Hall? Sargent and Balmoral? Euclid and Main?

Does anyone have a map or document which shows the old streetcar routes?
Using today's equivalent technology, would Winnipeg's roads have the necessary clearance for an at-grade alignment?

I'm not an engineer or tech expert, sorry if these are silly questions. I really see a lot of untapped potential and I'm so irritated at our government's lack of vision or political will.

[drew]

^ I would assume that the at-grade rail lines and connections at intersections would need to be of a construction and material quality far beyond what is currently seen on our streets.

They would need to insulate under the rails to prevent frost heaving, and rework the concrete along the strip where the rails would be. As long as they do it right the first time, it should be good for many years to come...

Other than this strip for the rails and connections though, the existing street could be left as is.

[Alva360]

Originally Posted by flatlander

I think there are some hybrids on the way but haven't been delivered yet. At least one is articulated I believe?

I wrote a email to city transit about three months ago to see what the status was on those buses because it had been indicated they were suppose to be on the road the beginning of this year.......... they replied back by saying they probably won't be here until some time next year. They haven't even purchased them yet.......... slow as molasses if you tell me. As usual with Winnipeg.

[rgalston]

Originally Posted by Kitty Surprise

Does anyone have a map or document which shows the old streetcar routes?

The blue lines in this city map from 1915 indicate where street railway was. I think that this shows the extent of the streetcar network, as it was until the 1930s, when they began ripping up tracks and converting the routes to diesel and trolley buses.
As this map shows, it basically served every major neighborhood street except Ellice Avenue.
http://winnipedia.ca/images/f/fc/Winnipeg_Map_1915.jpg

[LilZebra]

Montreal unveils public transit plan including streetcars and possible tolls
at 11:48 on May 17, 2007, EST.

MONTREAL (CP) - The City of Montreal has unveiled an ambitious $8-billion public transit plan for the next 20 years, including a streetcar network and the possibility of tolls on bridges and highways.

Mayor Gerald Tremblay said at a news conference Thursday that the plan is focusing on sustainable development. The mayor says as a result of climate change the city must change its ways and encourage the use of public transit.

The plan would also include extending the subway system, more bicycle paths and an airport rail link.

Its expected to be adopted next fall and would also need federal and provincial participation.

Montreal sure seems to have its act together.

[Alva360]

Originally Posted by jimj_wpg

Montreal unveils public transit plan including streetcars and possible tolls
at 11:48 on May 17, 2007, EST.

MONTREAL (CP) - The City of Montreal has unveiled an ambitious $8-billion public transit plan for the next 20 years, including a streetcar network and the possibility of tolls on bridges and highways.

Mayor Gerald Tremblay said at a news conference Thursday that the plan is focusing on sustainable development. The mayor says as a result of climate change the city must change its ways and encourage the use of public transit.

The plan would also include extending the subway system, more bicycle paths and an airport rail link.

Its expected to be adopted next fall and would also need federal and provincial participation.

Montreal sure seems to have its act together.

Exactly.

Mark my words............ your going to see more and more of this happening in years to come.

[LilZebra]

Originally Posted by Alva360

Exactly.

Mark my words............ your going to see more and more of this happening in years to come.

And Winnipeg will be left behind, still trying to sell BRT to the citizens.

[Kitty Surprise]

Originally Posted by jimj_wpg

And Winnipeg will be left behind, still trying to sell BRT to the citizens.

...making do with the same crappy system. A truly depressing possibility.

I'm beginning to hate that acronym.

We need to light a MFing bonfire under the gov'ts collective a$$es.

[Alva360]

Not if it becomes a standard in todays living. The Fed's would have to some how make this happen. If everyone is aware of Global Warming and knows it's severity/ramification and are prepared to make changes in the way we live..... this would need to be highly considered as it would probably have the the most significant impact on the environment.

[Winnipegger]

This may be a bit off topic, but do you think we should totally sacrafice our growing economy to save the environment? Maybe thats being to narrow of options, but the way I see it, if we really want to make a difference, we would sure have to change alot which would bring down commerce. As for mass transit, if money wasn't such an issue, I'd like a subway, but maybe thats totally unrealistic for Winnipeg. Just a thought.

[1ajs]

Originally Posted by Winnipegger

This may be a bit off topic, but do you think we should totally sacrafice our growing economy to save the environment? Maybe thats being to narrow of options, but the way I see it, if we really want to make a difference, we would sure have to change alot which would bring down commerce. As for mass transit, if money wasn't such an issue, I'd like a subway, but maybe thats totally unrealistic for Winnipeg. Just a thought.

aww sacrifice wtf maybe we should invest in ways to make our econimy more green!!! both money wise and inviromentaly

[Winnipegger]

But maybe those valuable invesments can go to something that will benifit us more in the short run. You may say "What about the longrun?" but have people thought that maybe there will be no longrun? If your christian, what if God came today? We could invested that money in something totally more usefull, like helping out the down and out on Portage, or maybe we should arm ourselves for war? Canada is doing better in being more assertive with our military, but we can do more. Okay, so maybe that last issue wasn't very important compared to Global Warming, and yes, your right. We should find ways to help the environment and the economy. Thats why you should be proud to live in Manitoba. Almost all our power comes from Hyrdo, which is clean, efficient, and reliable. It also provides employment and buisness opporunity Nationally and Globally. And look at these windmills that are popping up in Southern Manitoba. Manitoba is doing a good job on that topic, I think. Canada just needs to catch up with the Bio-Diesel and Hydrogen Cell industry.

[LilZebra]

Originally Posted by Winnipegger

But maybe those valuable invesments can go to something that will benifit us more in the short run. You may say "What about the longrun?" but have people thought that maybe there will be no longrun? If your christian, what if God came today? We could invested that money in something totally more usefull, like helping out the down and out on Portage, or maybe we should arm ourselves for war? Canada is doing better in being more assertive with our military, but we can do more. Okay, so maybe that last issue wasn't very important compared to Global Warming, and yes, your right. We should find ways to help the environment and the economy. Thats why you should be proud to live in Manitoba. Almost all our power comes from Hyrdo, which is clean, efficient, and reliable. It also provides employment and buisness opporunity Nationally and Globally. And look at these windmills that are popping up in Southern Manitoba. Manitoba is doing a good job on that topic, I think. Canada just needs to catch up with the Bio-Diesel and Hydrogen Cell industry.

Premier Doer, is that you? Sure sounds like you.

BTW, I'm not voting for your NDP party because you have said a few times that rapid transit is NOT a priority for you, but you'd rather spend the $$ on cheap stuff like bike paths and trails. Well Mr. Doer, I can tell you that those things in and of themselves are GOOD (don't get me wrong). But those kinds of projects won't be enough to leverage an improvement in Winnipeg's economy, and especially that in downtown Winnipeg. That is why we absolutely need rail rapid transit.

I know that Mr. Gerrard, who you debated on CBWT tonight, has a platform that includes LRT for Winnipeg. So my vote next week will be going to Mr. Gerrard.

Also Gerrard says that too much public housing is not a good thing, so he would substantially reduce it. Now there, Mr. Doer, don't cry. After all, your party believes in such things as single-Moms, welfare, trailer park trash inbred people. But Gerrard is right. The less we have of public housing and instead provide citizens with $$ for decent private-sector housing the better Winnipeg and the rest of the province will be.

Oh, and one more thing. I remember back in '04 reading that you wanted to start a province-wide educational television station. That was 3 years ago Gary. I'm still waiting for it. In the meantime, I've become a member of TVOntario.

I want to live in a HAVE province, not a HAVE NOT province. If we vote you in for your 3rd term next week, I'm sure that Manitoba will continue to be a HAVE NOT. And just what is YOUR plan for the East Coasters who have immigrated to Manitoba? These people are the inbreds who have come here because the East Coast fishery is gone or in serious decline. These people are low-skilled and most likely have many social and mental health problems. What will you do to address this upcoming problem?

Thank you for your time Mr. Premier.