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  #1121  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2008, 1:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Andy6 View Post
Maybe in recognition of Winnipeg's car culture, you could turn it into a "drive-thru" interpretive centre.
Ummm, it's not just Winnipeg with a car culture. The only difference is that the city refuses to build a LRT rapid transit system, which helps in encouraging causes car cultures to flourish.
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  #1122  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2008, 2:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Andy6 View Post
Maybe in recognition of Winnipeg's car culture, you could turn it into a "drive-thru" interpretive centre.
I like that idea. Using your car you can take an abbreviated trip back through time. Only without the expense of having to own a Delorean.

The tour could start in the Exchange, you then could work your way back to Upper Fort Garry to witness life in the Canadian fur trade and finally conclude your voyage at Fort Garry Place to witness the dawn of western civilization.

Imagine that, the story of mankind in the modern world and it can all be told using just five city blocks.
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  #1123  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2008, 3:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Only The Lonely.. View Post
and finally conclude your voyage at Fort Garry Place to witness the dawn of western civilization.
...or its collapse. FGP and its Wal-Mart caryatids is sort of one of those "we've come full circle" experiences.
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  #1124  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2008, 3:46 AM
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I actually agree with Asper's editorial. I just don't agree that they need the entire lot to acheive those goals.
...
Anyway, that's my 2 cents.
I like your idea and the parkade would probably work on a small site if the demand was there, all you need is a width of 120 feet and you would just go higher. I can see no reason why the interpretive centre couldn't exist on the actual Fort site ... only the stubbornness of the proponents.

So Gail has the Human Rights Museum, and I thought David had the Stadium ... maybe he thought he needed to appeal to the cultured in our fair City ... too bad for him that 77% of our population doesn't want to assist a bunch of millionaires with their middle class donations.
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  #1125  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2008, 4:11 AM
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anyone notice the "friends" target fundraising goal has been reduced to 3.5 million on their web site?....an easy way to reach your target is to cut it by 2/3 i suppose..
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  #1126  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2008, 4:19 AM
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anyone notice the "friends" target fundraising goal has been reduced to 3.5 million on their web site?....an easy way to reach your target is to cut it by 2/3 i suppose..
I think they mean the public input is 3.5 mil ... they were counting on 4.5 from the province and 4.5 from the Feds; that equals the 12.5 mil the City required. With the province only giving 1.5, and no word from the Feds, that leaves 10 million to be raised in 7 weeks. Think this will happen?
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  #1127  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2008, 5:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Andy6 View Post
...or its collapse. FGP and its Wal-Mart caryatids is sort of one of those "we've come full circle" experiences.
Given your patroniz...er upbeat attitude, I suppose you wouldn't object to adding a stopover to depict the cultural rape of Native people to our "drive-thru" tour?

That's an awesome proposal j.online, how do we get that in the hands of the "Friends" and Crystal developers. Seriously
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  #1128  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2008, 7:41 AM
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Given your patroniz...er upbeat attitude, I suppose you wouldn't object to adding a stopover to depict the cultural rape of Native people to our "drive-thru" tour?
I don't see how you could fail to address the relationship between the natives and the fur trade in such a tour, no. Obviously there were cultural influences in both directions, some good and some bad, and it would be important to consider those in an intelligent way.
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  #1129  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2008, 8:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Andy6 View Post
I don't see how you could fail to address the relationship between the natives and the fur trade in such a tour, no. Obviously there were cultural influences in both directions, some good and some bad, and it would be important to consider those in an intelligent way.
Sure, we could discuss the good times as we drove by the Upper Fort Garry in our "drive-thru" tour. I meant my post as a sarcastic response to your overall condensing remarks. Winnipeg needs less people with an inferiority complex.
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  #1130  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2008, 9:56 PM
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Some great letters to the editor in today's Free Press.

Quote:
Friends are wrong

Re: Reclaim a critical part of our past, Feb. 8.

David Asper makes some very good points about the value of recognizing Winnipeg's history. Upper Fort Garry is an important landmark in this city, and I agree that it should get the recognition it deserves.

While I commend the Friends of Upper Fort Garry for raising public awareness of the fort, I think that the group is wrong when it comes to the apartment building proposed for the southwest corner of Fort Street and Assiniboine Avenue. The group has presented no sound reasons justifying their belief that a park and interpretive centre would be incompatible with an apartment building nearby.

Instead of blocking the apartment building in a misguided effort at turning a downtown block into a massive monument to what once was, the Friends of Upper Fort Garry should welcome the opportunity to create a vibrant urban space which also commemorates Winnipeg's past. Such an approach would be a fitting tribute to those who established this city.

Both downtown residential development and a redeveloped Upper Fort Garry would be of great benefit to the neighbourhood (in which I reside), and to the city as a whole. There is no reason we should not have both.


WALTER M. KRAWEC
Winnipeg
Quote:
Recognize its value

Although I am a frequent visitor to Winnipeg from St. Paul, Minn., I still remember my first time trying to locate the Upper Fort Garry Gate. The site didn't seem to be identified on any city maps in my possession and even when I found it, both the grounds and the historic markers seemed decrepit. On every trip to Winnipeg since that time I have visited the site (often with my children) and wondered why such an incredible piece of history was not given more prominence. After reading the recent story about the efforts of the Friends of Upper Fort Garry, I am happy to see that others also appreciate its importance. Hopefully, the public and their representatives in government will come to recognize such value as well.


ALEXANDER TSELOS
St. Paul, Minn.
Quote:
Stop the foot-dragging

I've pondered this for a while, but I cannot understand the foot-dragging by the city and province when it comes to properly recognizing the Upper Fort Garry site as the unique and historically significant place for Winnipeg, Manitoba and the country as a whole. This is a legacy to be celebrated, studied and is key to knowing who we are as Manitobans. As a geography professor, one who teaches undergraduates about the geography of Canada, I am appalled at the lack of support and recognition of the social, economic and political significance of the early history of this city. I'm surprised at how little of their own history and geography my students know -- and these are second-year university students. An interpretive centre is exactly what this city needs so that its citizens experience and appreciate the hard work and sacrifices of those who carved this great place out of a wilderness.

Manitoba is my adopted province, and I'm regularly impressed by how we get behind causes and help others. In this case, we are helping ourselves build a sense of self, of place, of identity. There is so much promise here, but we have to get past this reluctance to tell our story to ourselves and to the larger community.


BONNIE HALLMAN
Winnipeg
Quote:
Support the fort

Re: New plan for Upper Fort Garry, Feb. 6.

As a proud Winnipegger, I am extremely disappointed by Premier Gary Doer's decision not to fully financially support the Friends of Upper Fort Garry in their quest to build a heritage park on the site of the city's birthplace.

The partial financial support offered by the premier means we may lose this historic opportunity to protect the past.

At the same time, it may squander the chance to create a unique tourism attraction and to add much needed green space to Winnipeg's downtown. I strongly urge the premier to reconsider his decision and to support the vision and leadership shown by the Friends.


SEAN PETTY
Winnipeg
Quote:
Accept the compromise

The time has come for the beleaguered Friends of Upper Fort Garry to demonstrate responsible leadership and accept the gracious compromise available to them.

Lacking coherent site plans and suffering from acutely inadequate funding, the Friends have ventured perilously close, at least in spirit, to violating municipal ordinances regarding panhandling as they shamelessly play the local media in a desperate attempt to loosen spare nickels from the public coffers. The predictable consequences of such actions are encapsulated by the Feb. 8 Free Press poll: "Will you contribute to the Friends of Upper Fort Garry campaign?" in which 77 per cent of respondents voted no.

The Friends of Upper Fort Garry were ill-equipped to tender a proper submission in response to the Request For Proposals issued by the City of Winnipeg back in late 2006. It is resoundingly clear that nothing has changed. For this cadre of elite citizens and prominent businessmen to be taken seriously, personal funds need to be committed instead of grovelling at the public trough. If this is the best that the city's brain trust can accomplish, does Winnipeg have any future other than a third-tier city struggling to retain status amongst Regina and Kitchener?

A simple compromise is at hand that will save face for the Friends: Relinquish the land earmarked for the ambitious but ill-fated interpretive centre to Crystal Developers so that a modern mid-rise apartment tower can be erected and serve to bolster the downtown population. The balance of the land, which includes the original dimensions of Upper Fort Garry, can be magnanimously donated to the Friends for the eventual development of their park and uninspiring faux architecture. At the current pace of fundraising, they should be able to afford a hotdog cart and some varnish in about five years.


WARD MIDDLESTEAD
Winnipeg
Quote:
With friends like these...

These "Friends" of Upper Fort Garry, are not the kind of friends that I would want. They are against letting development of any kind, other than their interpretive centre go forth, even if their plan is second rate and would actually hurt the preservation of the old fort.

The Crystal Developers' plan carefully took the importance of the fort into consideration. It did not build any of the apartments on top of the original fort location, it provided for restoration and incorporation of the original fort into public grounds, and provided for park space.

At present, many people do not even notice the fort gate standing there. The Crystal plan would bring people downtown to live, provide more critical mass to an important/historic area, and greatly improve the site for all to see and enjoy.

Now although Friends may have had good intentions, they are missing two key ingredients; a strong plan and money. The drawings that I have seen for the Friends plan seem rather weak; a small farmers' market that will hurt The Forks operation if it ever becomes successful (which is up for debate) and an interpretive centre, both of which could be on the chopping block due to lack of funds.

If the Friends' "vision" is allowed to take shape, we might very well end up with the existing gate, some more signage, and an empty lot or maybe some grass. So much for bringing people to see it. I mean, this group basically thought the space was fine, sitting quietly until someone else came along with a concrete idea on how to develop it.

I am by no means connected to Crystal in any way, but I am most definitely biased. They want to provide something that will continue to improve downtown, bring people to the site, and preserve the most important historical aspects, if not make them considerably more prominent than they are now.

They have the plan, they have the money, and they have the right intentions. They're the true "friend" for this important place in Winnipeg. I would be greatly disappointed to see this opportunity wasted by a group that does not have the means to make it great.


KEITH McKAGUE
Winnipeg
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  #1131  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2008, 11:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Only The Lonely.. View Post
Some great letters to the editor in today's Free Press.
I guess I'm a bit sceptical of how much difference one apartment building is going to make to an area that is in decline despite the presence of dozens of other apartment buildings. On the other hand, I am optimistic about the possibilities of redeveloping the fort as public space and bringing some obviously much-needed awareness of Winnipeg's past to its younger generations. It is certainly possible that both aims can eventually be accommodated. I think it is important to be patient.
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  #1132  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2008, 12:03 AM
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how is that area in decline exactly?

one 20 storey apartment building doesnt save downtown....but without one, you dont have two....and it certainly does way more than a patch of grass.

we all hope that the fort is brought back into the conciousness of the city, but do we need to set aside an entire block, including where the fort didnt exist, to do that?

compromise is the solution...something the arrogant friends dont seem to understand.

if we can see the evidence of david asper's sense of what makes a good urban public space in the disaterous redevelopment of the canwest plaza, then maybe we should forget the park altogether.
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  #1133  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2008, 12:23 AM
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Have any old people posted their personal information on the internet to try and stop this yet?

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/f...natures-1.html
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  #1134  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2008, 2:08 PM
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Friends of Upper Fort Garry could learn from Brussels
Sun Feb 10 2008

HAD a call recently from a reader who said the Free Press should be ashamed for promoting the construction of a condominium project on the north bank of the Assiniboine River but neglecting to say that so doing would interfere with the Upper Fort Garry site.

Huh? I called back and discovered the complainer had not a clue about the issue. He didn't know that the condo project discussed in an editorial was on Assiniboine, blocks away from the old gate, all that remains of the Upper Fort Garry on Main Street.

But he didn't care that he was wrong. He was convinced that everyone involved in the issue simply wants to put development ahead of history, and that the project that he was unaware of was a part of the conspiracy.

To each his own, I suppose. No doubt his uninformed opinions are not representative of those of most Winnipeggers. But his anger and outrage over nothing, really, seemed evidence that Gordon Sinclair might be right -- the save Upper Fort Garry issue increasingly is not about fact but about symbol.

Well, what about the symbol, the forlorn gate itself, tucked away in a little lot off Main Street, where it has been out of sight and out of mind pretty much forever.

But what's wrong with that? As hidden away as it is, I've been aware of the gate all my life. I've seen it on crests, stationery and promotions for as long as I can remember, and not just because I grew up in Fort Garry and identified with the gate far more than I ever have with Lower Fort Garry, the big impressive tourist attraction at Selkirk that I assure you I have visited less often than I have the little "forgotten" gate.

I went back to the gate recently and found it as nondescript as ever, a portal into what long ago had been a commercial enterprise where some significant political events in Manitoba's history took place, but not that many.

Winnipeg is filled with places where some things of significance took place. By that criterion we should be building interpretive centres everywhere in Winnipeg, starting, perhaps, by turning Main Street into a pedestrian mall lined with "interpretive" kiosks and peopled with actors in period costumes representative of the entire history of the city. And damn the costs. It's history!

The point is that simply because something is of historical significance does not mean that it should to be turned into a Disneyland.

The gate is what it is. The $12 million concept plan for it, however fraught with good intentions and hype, is not. It's an attempt to make more of the gate than should be made of it -- to stick it in our faces and force us to see it for something that it isn't.

I look at the concept plan and what I see is a very contemporary design that will look and feel hackneyed in no time at all. I see an attraction that Winnipeggers will flock to for a season and then lose interest. What was Dieter Brock's sneer abut the attractions of Winnipeg? How many times can you go to the Assiniboine Park Zoo?

To extend the Disney analogy, the original rides at its theme parks are passé in comparison to the new ones. The Wow! factor of the concept plan to somehow transform a gate into a virtual Upper Fort Garry will have a similar shelf life.

The gate is old and out of the way. It can't and shouldn't be made new and brought into a limelight at centre stage, the naming rights of which no doubt are up for grabs. It has dignity and significance in its little corner of Winnipeg, and that should be respected.

Which is not to say that it can't be improved upon. But does linking it with coloured pavements and planters and fake "period" buildings and carefully scripted "factual" story boards and maybe rides in York boats accomplish that? I think not.

What would improve it would be a remake of the park in which it stands. The signage and "interpretive" panels there now are dreadful. Everything shows signs of neglect.

The original idea to link the gate to a residential development, park and market would better ensure the gate's place and significance than a theme park where visitors take a moment to view the gate followed by hours spent in an air-conditioned theatre nearby where artifacts compete with those at the museum for no good reason.

My point is that the gate is special in its small way.

Imagine what a travesty it would be to build a marina with an interpretive centre, restaurants selling ancient fare and offering glass-bottomed-boat rides around the Little Mermaid in Copenhagen harbour. That's kind of what is being imagined for the gate.

Why can't we spruce the place up and create a really nice, quiet place for the gate and let its significance grow with its age?

Ask anyone what is the most iconic feature of the city of Brussels and they will tell you it is not the uber modern and forbidding European Parliament buildings or the palaces or the museums and galleries.

They'll tell you it is the Manneken Pis, a 60-centimetre-tall bronze statue of a naked boy pissing into a pot. It takes up a tiny space in little alley, the same space it has occupied since 1619 -- almost 400 years.

Its significance, and its impact, have grown ever greater over time for the very reason that no one tried to make more of it than it was.

gerald.flood@freepress.mb.ca
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  #1135  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2008, 3:08 PM
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Interesting perspective, but we've had 125 years of seeing the gate's significance shrinking, not growing, because no one tried to make more of it than it is.

I would have no problem with a good plan for the current site, though. I do kind of agree that a faux-fort has the potential to turn out badly. The problem with any small park in downtown Winnipeg, however, is that it will soon be occupied by drunks. But it might be better if the Friends took a few million and ploughed it into a really superb permanently staffed small park with the gate as its centrepiece. I'm thinking of Greenacre Park in Manhattan as an example what could be emulated here. It's a fantastic use of a small lot -- I always structure my wanderings around New York so that I can buy a sandwich and have lunch there.

With this approach, you could have all the condos you wanted along Main Street and a better tourist attraction.

(This list of the world's best and worst parks is interesting.)
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Last edited by Andy6; Feb 10, 2008 at 3:57 PM.
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  #1136  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2008, 8:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Andy6 View Post
Interesting perspective, but we've had 125 years of seeing the gate's significance shrinking, not growing, because no one tried to make more of it than it is.

I would have no problem with a good plan for the current site, though. I do kind of agree that a faux-fort has the potential to turn out badly. The problem with any small park in downtown Winnipeg, however, is that it will soon be occupied by drunks. But it might be better if the Friends took a few million and ploughed it into a really superb permanently staffed small park with the gate as its centrepiece. I'm thinking of Greenacre Park in Manhattan as an example what could be emulated here. It's a fantastic use of a small lot -- I always structure my wanderings around New York so that I can buy a sandwich and have lunch there.

With this approach, you could have all the condos you wanted along Main Street and a better tourist attraction.

(This list of the world's best and worst parks is interesting.)
I agree (though I've never been to Greenace Park). I don't know for sure, but it seems like the Fort Garry gate was a greater part of Winnipeg's "collective conciousness" at one time, say, in my grandfather's day, my father's day, or yours. Many people, who have lived in Winnipeg all their lives, do not even know that the gate is there at all. If leaving it "as it is" involves letting this decline in prominence continue,and letting it decline in physical appearance, too (it was covered in litter on my last visit, and is usually flooded in the springtime), then it would be disgraceful. The gate must be appreciated and cared for.

Also, for it to be a major destination, I would imagine there would have to have some parking spots. Where would these go? Probably on the corner of Fort and Assiniboine, where the apartment is planned. Would that be any more respectful to the site's history?
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  #1137  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2008, 3:26 AM
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Not to pour some reality into the fantasy of the old and misinformed but...

1) this site is not the birthplace of Winnipeg. The first fort was built closer to the river at what is now the Forks. It was destroyed long ago to make way for the railroads .. and has since been recreated into a national historic site (the Forks )which sadly does little to inform locals and tourists that that it is the actual birthplace of the city.

2) some little dink park on the corner of Main and Assinaboine will not be a "major tourist attraction". Unless by major tourist attraction they mean a place for people to shoot up. This "park" will be tiny in comparison to the surrounding parks and will attract little to no interest, beyond perhaps of a place for joggers to take a quick rest, if these "friends" provide them a water fountain on the way to the Forks. No this "park" will become a grass version of a parking lot, with less function.

3) the simple fact thet they have kept there plan as general as possible with little to no explanation as to why this "park" would attract tourists leads me to believe that this very short term hype is little more than a waste of opportunity, time, money and effort, not to mention wasted space in the Free Press, who seem to be trying to ride this pathetic proposal into some type of story. It reaks of stupidity.

So beyond the fact that these friends have there historical fact completely wrong, have dilussions of what makes for a major tourist attraction and have even less actual knowlege on how to make this this site an even slightly sucessful park in the most minimal way, and lastly having little to no plan to work off of.. I will now go on record and say that if this "thing" makes it to reality it will go down as a massive flop. It will probibly drain the city parks budget of much needed funds to keep it going, instead of the city collecting property taxes on a fairly valuable piece of land. Not to mention the lost opportunity to increase the density of the downtown, while still providing a mixed use site, which would have still offered a reminder of the importance of the Fort which once stood at that site.

Seemingly another opportunity missed. With friendly like that who needs enemies.
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  #1138  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2008, 10:35 AM
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^I agree with that although I don't think I've got quite as cynical and acerbic a view on what happens if the Friends succeed.
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  #1139  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2008, 1:57 PM
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Originally Posted by newflyer View Post
Not to pour some reality into the fantasy of the old and misinformed but...

1) this site is not the birthplace of Winnipeg. The first fort was built closer to the river at what is now the Forks. It was destroyed long ago to make way for the railroads .. a
I think the argument is that the site is the birthplace of Manitoba, not Winnipeg.

And much of that fort was/is on the current site.

You can lament the city's flip flopping with a developer on a business deal all you want, but there is no denying the historical significance of the site, and the unique opportunity to develop something fitting of its importance.
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  #1140  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2008, 2:29 PM
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Andrew McDermot, probably the first private businessman in Manitoba, owned everything between Notre Dame and McDermot Avenues. This lot of his near Main Street would form the nucleus of the city, beginning with the first store at Portage and Main (the true birthplace of Winnipeg) in 1862. The city's first council meeting was held next door in 1874. The first electric light shone, the first hotel, the first public hospital, fire station, etc. Were McDermot able to survey the city today, would he be more pleased to have some of the finest buildings in the city (Bank of Montreal, G-W Life, Bank of Commerce, E.R.R.C., Whitla building, to name a few) standing on his former river lot? Or would he have wanted a cartoonish re-creation of his store--a long, rude Red River Frame house--and a sprawling park and interperative centre staffed by historical recreationists?

Continuing to grow in a proper way is the greatest tribute we can give to the history of our city. The Fort's gate is not going to go anywhere, and will not lose the oportunity to be improved and appreciated if the Friends don't get their way.
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