Metro Phoenix Transit/Transportation Developments

[HooverDam]

Originally Posted by Prestige Worldwide

- Probably not much of a chance on the 'Tovrea' naming convention, we have a penchant for having station names that really stumble off the tongue. ex: 'Veterans Way and College Avenue at Arizona State University Main Campus'....ugh.

Agreed, a lot of the names are terrible. But, I plan to help change that!

When the Metro extensions to Downtown Mesa and up 19th Ave happen, they'll have to put up new signs at the stations as well as in the Train Cars. This will be a perfect time to update some of the awful, clunky names.

As I've bemoaned before, Phoenix/the Valley does a terrible job with place making. We need to entirely ditch this convention on the LRT of referring to stops by Cross Streets. Listing them in some places is fine, but I don't want the robotic lady saying things like "19th Avenue and Camelback"...it just seems so podunk, I've never seen any other City do it like that.

Two groups I'm involved in, the "Phoenix Historic Neighborhoods Coalition" and the "Thunderdome Neighborhood Association for Non Auto-Mobility" have tangential stakes in this issue, so I'm hoping to create a push for Metro to rename stations and re-do the station announcements in conjunction with the next extensions.

With all that said, lets discuss Station names. Many of them already have names, some of them good, some meh.
*= new station

19th Ave & Dunlap*= Not sure on this one, its still sort of in the Royal Palm area. There's a plaza there called "El Monte" but I'm not sure if there's any reason for that naming.

19th Ave & Northern*= Royal Palm is the name of the adjacent neighborhood and park. They could potential do a "Royal Palm North" and Royal Palm South" stop for Dunlap & Northern. Though its somewhat confusing that "Royal Palm South" would be at a street called "Nothern"....hmm

19th Ave & Glendale*= Washington Park and Washington High are the nearest major attractions. I'm not sure if any of the neighborhoods directly adjacent have a set name/identity. Washington Park would be an OK name though.

19th Ave & Montebllo= Christown

19th Ave & Camelback= Park Lee. Why Park Lee? Well its the name of a huge apartment complex just Southeast of the Station that was designed by Ralph Haver. The area is also becoming something of an authentic little Asia, with tons of Vietnamese eateries, hair salons, as well as Korean, Japanese and Chinese businesses popping up. Both "Park" and "Lee" are Asian surnames, so it seems an ideal fit.

7th Ave & Camelback= Melrose I'd drop the word "district" from the title in a perfect world.

Central & Camelback= Uptown

Central & Campbell= Central High. I'd be open to changing this ones name, but I'm not sure to what. This stop also serves Brophy & Xavier, so maybe "High Schools" would be better.

Central & Indian School= Indian School. Its currently called "Steele Indian School Park" which I find clunky. Just "Indian School" refers more to the history of the school and lets people know the park is there I think.

Central & Osborn= Park Central

Central & Thomas= Midtown

Central & Encanto= Heard Museum. This stop is adjacent to the largest collection of Historic Neighborhoods, so I'd be open to the idea of calling it "Heard Museum & Historic Neighborhoods" to encourage more exploration of Willo, Alvarado, etc. But perhaps that makes it too clunky when the opposite is my goal.

Central & McDowell= Art Museum & Library. When you exit and see a dirt lot and a CVS you hardly think of a "cultural district". I think just being more clear as to the two main attractions of the stop would be better.

Central and Roosevelt= Roosevelt Row. Its already called Roosevelt Row, don't tweak that and call it "Roosevelt Arts District", thats confusing.

Central & Van Buren= ASU Downtown Drop the word "Campus", its clunky and needless. Some might say to re-name this stop "Central Station", which would make some sense. But might hope is that when Commuter Rail/InterCity rail happens at Union Station it becomes the Central Bus Terminal as well and the City can give away/sell Central Station to be developed as a tower(s).

Central & Washington/1st & Jefferson= Downtown Its currently called "City Hall", but how many people are heading to City Hall? I'm not sure. "Downtown" might be confusing, as there are indeed multiple stops with in downtown, but this is truly at the heart of Downtown.

3rd St & Washington/Jefferson= Convention Center & Stadiums This stop seems to be currently referred to as Convention Center/Ballpark/Arena which is too much. But I do think its important that both those things are mentioned, I think my wording is a bit more concise.

12th St & Washington= Eastlake Park Though if a 16th Stop is added, it becomes "Eastlake Park", which would mean this stop would likely have to be "Washington Row" or something.

24th St & Washington=I don't have a strong feel on this one, suggestions? At worst just call it "24th Street"

38th St & Washington= Gateway Community College

44th St & Washington= Airport. Alternatively "Sky Harbor" would be acceptable. But "Sky Harbor Airport" seems too wordy.

48th St & Washington*= Carraro Heights. Tovrea Castle is the main attraction, but doesn't refer to the whole area. Carraro Heights could come to define the area bounded by the river bed, the 202 and the 143.

Priest & Washington= Papago Park get rid of the word "center"

Center & Washington= I could go a either way on this one, maybe Mouer Park or Town Lake

Mill Ave & 3rd St= Mill Avenue

Veterans Way & College Ave= Tempe Transportation Center. As much as I love Sun Devil Stadium, perhaps naming it for the transit center is more clear.

University & Rural= ASU

Dorsey Lane & Apache= Hudson Manor is the name of the neighborhood there, not sure why they didn't just call it that.

McClintock & Apache= I don't have a strong feel on this one, suggestions? At worst just call it "McClintock"

Smith/Martin & Apache= East Tempe

Price Road & Apache= I'm not sure on this one either. Naming a Train station for a freeway seems depressing, but calling it "Loop 101" or something similar likely makes most sense.

Dobson & Main St= Tri City

Alma School & Main*= West Mesa probably makes the most sense. But there's a park nearby called Beverly Park, perhaps thats a potential name too.

Country Club & Main*= I don't have a strong feel on this one, suggestions? At worst just call it "Country Club"

Center St & Main*= Downtown Mesa

Mesa Drive & Main*= This one is tricky. Directly adjacent to it is a small pocket park called Gateway Park, but its likely unworthy of having a station named after it. Pioneer Park makes more sense even though its not directly adjacent. Obviously the LDS Temple is there too. So maybe Pioneer Park/Temple or something is best...?

Additionally, I'd like to see maps with the area within half a mile (walking distance) of the station at each station. It could mention major attractions like Museums, the Temple, etc. Also point out where restaurant clusters are, historic neighborhoods, parks, shopping centers, etc.

Boston has this on the MBTA in their underground stations.We ought to at least have it on all the stations from Eastlake to Melrose, which are likely the areas people would be walking in. As well as from Mill Ave to ASU.

Anyhow, constructive criticism is welcome/encouraged.

[combusean]

When you have a system that's established, the somewhat intangible benefits of renaming stops have to outweigh the inconveniences of confusing every last passenger who takes that stop, the real cost in updating the infrastructure, and whatever downside there is to having suddenly obsolete information that can't be replaced like whatever map that's sitting in somebody's pocket or online or whatever.

In a real city, as an example, it would make more sense to call that Tempe stop Hudson Manor, but I would doubt that even the residents of Hudson Manor call it that. Sooner or later, the question of who you are serving needs to be asked and you need to answer how you can do that best.

In my own conversations advocating my 126 Neighborhoods of Phoenix map, the point was brought up that a top-down, government-declared naming scheme of neighborhoods is about as unnatural as it comes. And it's true. I hate that people say live on some godforsaken intersection as opposed to their actual neighborhood in too many instances, but the fact remains that much of residents' interactions with the built environment are programmed around that intersection, a fact that I don't think can be changed.

Phoenix's relentless grid with widely-spaced, well-known street names runs counter to other cities with far more, smaller, and endlessly named streets; the lot of which whose location nobody can remember, or aren't on endless grids, or are localized to small areas. Saying you live in a neighborhood in these cities makes more sense because nobody outside that neighborhood knows your streets, but they do know neighborhoods.

[Prestige Worldwide]

Originally Posted by combusean

When you have a system that's established, the somewhat intangible benefits of renaming stops have to outweigh the inconveniences of confusing every last passenger who takes that stop, the real cost in updating the infrastructure, and whatever downside there is to having suddenly obsolete information that can't be replaced like whatever map that's sitting in somebody's pocket or online or whatever.

In a real city, as an example, it would make more sense to call that Tempe stop Hudson Manor, but I would doubt that even the residents of Hudson Manor call it that. Sooner or later, the question of who you are serving needs to be asked and you need to answer how you can do that best.

In my own conversations advocating my 126 Neighborhoods of Phoenix map, the point was brought up that a top-down, government-declared naming scheme of neighborhoods is about as unnatural as it comes. And it's true. I hate that people say live on some godforsaken intersection as opposed to their actual neighborhood in too many instances, but the fact remains that much of residents' interactions with the built environment are programmed around that intersection, a fact that I don't think can be changed.

Phoenix's relentless grid with widely-spaced, well-known street names runs counter to other cities with far more, smaller, and endlessly named streets; the lot of which whose location nobody can remember, or aren't on endless grids, or are localized to small areas. Saying you live in a neighborhood in these cities makes more sense because nobody outside that neighborhood knows your streets, but they do know neighborhoods.

I think you've nailed it. Having lived here my whole life, the grid really captures throughout Metro Phoenix how people define their own neighborhood and other places spatially. Injecting top-down naming conventions often fail "Copper Square"

However, I do believe Central Phoenix residents do identify a little more with their neighborhood as a place, and pride is beginning to swell. I like Hoover's sentiment, and it is valuable to pursue. Perhaps METRO should put into place a provision for neighborhoods petitioning to name stations. They can already do this for local stop signs and speed humps, why not transit stops. It will make surrounding communities feel more invested in the transit stop. I think neighborhood associations would be game to become involved.

[exit2lef]

Hoover, as always you've got some good ideas. I think the best source of station names, however, might be the train operators. Let me explain: When I ride the train twice a day on the way to and from work, some of the train operators announce key stations via the PA system. Some do it a lot, some do it not at all, and the majority vary their announcements based on the time of day and what events are scheduled.

When the Diamondbacks are at home, for example, almost every train operator will announce "exit here for Chase Field" when the train arrives at 3rd Street. Most train operators also announce 44th Street as "exit here for Sky Harbor Airport." A few of the more loquacious ones also announce the Heard Museum, PAM, and the Burton Barr library during hours that those institutions are open.

On the other hand, they would never announce names like "Hudson Manor" or "Eastlake Park" because those announcements would not be helpful to the occasional riders they are targeting with their announcements. I'd say you can take this proposal to the next level by riding the line from end-to-end at peak times in the late afternoon. Listen to what the train operators announce and also listen to the chatter among passengers about what station they need to use for what destination.

Finally, I'll say that even if not every station is renamed for a neighborhood or a landmark, the station names could probably be simplified just by using the the name of the intersecting street at each stop. That would result in the following:

Dunlap*
Northern*
Glendale*
Montebello
19th Ave
7th Ave
Camelback
Campbell
Indian School
Osborn
Thomas
Encanto
McDowell
Roosevelt
Van Buren
Washington / Jefferson
3rd Street
12th Street
16th Street*
24th Street
38th Street
44th Street
48th Street*
Priest
Center Parkway
Mill Avenue
College
Rural
Dorsey
McClintock
Smith-Martin
Price 101-Freeway
Sycamore
Alma School*
Country Club*
Center*
Mesa Drive*
Stapley*
Gilbert Road*

*proposed, planned, or under construction

The advantage is shorter names. The disadvantage is some confusion at stations where the train turns (e.g. 19th Ave & Camelback). Also, if ever there is another line built that intersects the same streets, you'd have duplicate station names that would have to resolved by color-coded lines.

Ultimately, I'd say a hybrid approach will probably work best. Rename some stations for destinations that are especially prominent. Leave others with simplified names based on the grid. While placemaking is important, the usability of light rail for all passengers, both regular commuters and occasional riders, matters most.

[Jjs5056]

First off, I'll just say I appreciate the thought put into developing such a list! I typed this out last night and looks like exit had some similar thoughts.

I have to agree with Sean, in questioning whether an investment in naming each of the stations is really worth it. I think forcing a name to a station like "Hudson Manor" is more clunky and user-unfriendly than sticking with intersections. As mentioned, that's a pretty engrained way for Phoenicians to orient themselves.

I think it's great to try and instill a sense of place, but not at the expense of an understandable system. I have become more invested in learning about the city, but getting off at "Hance Park" and not seeing a park in sight, or at "Melrose District" and being surrounded by dilapidated strip malls was extremely confusing when I first started riding the train.

With that said, I think some your other ideas at the end of your post would be a good balance- keeping the intersections, but better educating and defining the surrounding areas. Another problem I have is the inconsistency in using neighborhoods, attractions, streets, districts, etc. that comes as a result of trying to name every single stop.

Any ideas beyond this point are just for brainstorming purposes- I haven't thought them through much at all, not that anything is earth shattering!

I think maps would certainly be a great addition! I would propose including maps and announcing nearby attractions on select stops; for example, "Approaching Veterans Way and College Avenue. Access to Sun Devil Stadium, Tempe Transportation Center and ASU Main Campus." Meanwhile, stops like Dorsey and Apache wouldn't warrant such attention.

I think I'd also maybe like to see the current map of the system on each train expanded to show overarching districts/neighborhoods/nodes where appropriate instead of just the 3 cities: Downtown Mesa, ASU, Downtown Tempe or Mill Avenue District, Eastlake, Downtown Phoenix, Roosevelt Row, Midtown, Uptown, etc. Perhaps these could be announced, as well, as the train entered... Though, that might get confusing if not every area is defined. I'm not sure where to draw the line (including something like Eastlake for example), but hopefully this would help riders get a better sense of the areas connected by the train.

Finally, in addition to the maps, maybe the main stop within each district/neighborhood could have signage along with a short narrative explaining why it is named as it is, the history of the area, other fun facts and list of nearby places to visit- numbered to correspond to its place on the map. I love the photography at some of the stations and think something like this would complement well. I'd also recommend calling this out somewhere inside the train, and maybe announcing every so often so people know that this resource is available: "looking for a place to eat near your final destination? Look out for local information kiosks for maps and guides to great restaurants, parks, attractions and more." If not at every station, perhaps place an "I" symbol on the system map to indicate.

[dtnphx]

As much as I admire the interest in the name change thing, the amount of work posted here seemed like of a waste of time. The stations are named for the road that intersects the line for the most part. It's what people recognize. Most likely it's the naming convention going forward.

[HooverDam]

Good thoughts everyone. Exit2lef, frankly I haven't listened much to the operators I usually have my earphones in listening to podcasts, so I haven't noticed that as much.

I'd also like to see the colors on the current map go away. The line changes colors for PHX, Tempe and Mesa. That seems needlessly confusing and makes people familiar with bigger transit systems think they're changing train lines. I'm not aware of any other transit systems that have color coded for municipalities.

If they feel the need to designate which City you're on, they could easily write "Phoenix", "Tempe", "Mesa" under neath the line or something.

Originally Posted by dtnphx

As much as I admire the interest in the name change thing, the amount of work posted here seemed like of a waste of time. The stations are named for the road that intersects the line for the most part. It's what people recognize. Most likely it's the naming convention going forward.

My point was if it was done when the line is expanded, its not really much work at all. They already have to change all the maps on the train cars, and the big maps at each station, so changing a few words here and there on the stations shouldn't be a big deal.

At the VERY least the crazy stations downtown that have a copper CS logo (for Copper Square) ought to be taken down, thats crazy confusing.