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  #881  
Old Posted May 10, 2017, 10:13 PM
Tacheguy Tacheguy is offline
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that is a good read. thanks. I consider myself somewhat well informed on federal policy issues but there are a lot of aspects regarding reserves in particular that I struggle to understand. but I don't want to take up all your breaks!
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  #882  
Old Posted May 10, 2017, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by DirtWednesday View Post
Forum question, if I ignore r(hetorically)r(acist)skylar, does this whole topic disappear? I'm not against this topic, or even participating in it (obviously), I think it's a strange place to have it. Can anyone point to any other district on this whole forum site that has social discussion topics on specific races? It's odd. For this website, not in general. I come here for news on construction, wth is this? Last thing I want is another r(hetorically)r(acist)skylar post. It's actually kind of a shock when he says something not relating to bashing indigenous or "libtards" or whatever he wants to call them. Anyway, I'd like to block him, not the topic. Strange a topic as it is in a place like this.

I'm glad to see your contribution to this thread and these discussions, keeping this thread moving forward and open, as it will be with no change.

What will change is the following:

The above post(excerpts bolded) and an earlier post of similar content.

Personal attacks, belittling of, name calling, accusations of racism against posters and/or moderators will not be tolerated. Posts will be removed and suspensions implemented if deemed necessary in the opinion of a moderator(s), henceforth.
Use the report abuse function below a post if you feel their is a problem with a posters comments.
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  #883  
Old Posted May 11, 2017, 12:34 AM
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Ah fuck. Please don't ban me for this and I'm not the grammar police but this drives me crazy:
http://www.grammar-monster.com/easil...eir_theyre.htm
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  #884  
Old Posted May 11, 2017, 1:11 PM
TimeFadesAway TimeFadesAway is offline
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Well you asked for it... there goes my coffee break.
Great post. It's nice to hear some rationality once in a while instead of the ultra-individualistic, right-wing, borderline-something rhetoric that often pops up in this thread.
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  #885  
Old Posted May 11, 2017, 5:27 PM
windypeg windypeg is offline
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Maybe we should have a thread that talks about how freedom of speech has slowly been eroded in Canada and where differing views other than the usual leftist dribble are verboten, ie; at the Free Press or CBC.
I think you're confused. The fact that most educated columnists don't agree with you doesn't mean your freedom of speech has been in any way curtailed.
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  #886  
Old Posted May 11, 2017, 6:13 PM
DirtWednesday DirtWednesday is offline
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I've been on other forums where if you ignore a subject's original poster, the whole thread disappears. I don't necessarily want that to happen. On a thread started with racially biased intentions and it's hard not to call the OP out on it time and time again. The content within the thread thankfully often rises above straight up racism. I'd still like to ignore *him* though.


I found some good reading for ya'll on what the good ol' Indian Act was designed to do.

This site is an excellent source for Indian Act tid bits which also supplies all the citing you'll need to insure its validity.

https://www.ictinc.ca/blog/21-things...he-indian-act-

The Indian Act:
1. denied women status;
Marriage clause usually. *never go home again
2. introduced residential schools;
taking the indian out of the child
3. created reserves;
separating old ties with other tribes
4. renamed individuals with European names
Not uncommon to see "indian woman" on a family tree
5. restricted First Nations from leaving reserve without permission from Indian Agent - see picture above (update: 18/04/16 - the pass system was a policy endorsed by the government; it was never an Order In Council or Regulation but was definitely designed to keep First Nations on the reserve)
6. enforced enfranchisement of any First Nation admitted to university;
Never go home again
7. could expropriate portions of reserves for roads, railways and other public works, as well as to move an entire reserve away from a municipality if it was deemed expedient;
hydro uprooted a few reserves too for dams, reeking havoc on ecosystems
8. could lease out uncultivated reserve lands to non-First Nations if the new leaseholder would use it for farming or pasture;
that's great. first nations also needed permits to sell any produce they happened to cultivate... if the indian agent was available in time to issue that permit before the produce went bad.
9. forbade First Nations from forming political organizations;
10. prohibited anyone, First Nation or non-First Nation, from soliciting funds for First Nation legal claims without special license from the
Superintendent General.
(this 1927 amendment granted the government control over the ability of First Nations to pursue land claims);
HUGE one; Essentially made it illegal for uneducated status indians to ask for law help in any case.
11. prohibited the sale of alcohol to First Nations;
alcohol isn't the only substance to help kill yourself. although from a business and libertarian perspective, I don't think alcohol is any of the federal gov't's business.
12. prohibited sale of ammunition to First Nations;
With a limited hunting window thanks to the Indian agent, made traditional hunting methods a bit of a stretch.
13. prohibited pool hall owners from allowing First Nations entrance;
I've heard of this one.. what, white guys scared sharp shooting injuns would take their game away?
14. imposed the “band council” system;
Tribes all had unique methods to elect leaders and that wasn't the pleasant euphemism they call "band council". That was just an injun sounding municipality type arrangement. Not traditional, highly corruptible.
15. forbade First Nations from speaking their native language;
Language is a cornerstone of culture. This still makes me sad my grandparents feared for teaching their kids Cree. I know some stuff, but I'd like to see a large concentrated effort on re-teaching language for future generations.
16. forbade First Nations from practicing their traditional religion;
praise jebus. I know a lot of native Christians. It's weird given what they went through to be indoctrinated.
17. forbade western First Nations from appearing in any public dance, show, exhibition, stampede or pageant wearing traditional regalia;
This was really just to prohibit tribes from getting together. Divide and conquer.
18. declared potlatch and other cultural ceremonies illegal;
19. denied First Nations the right to vote
No right to complain if you can't vote, isn't that what they say in a democracy?
20. created permit system to control First Nations ability to sell products from farms;
why bother farming?
21. is a piece of legislation created under the British rule for the purpose of subjugating one race - Aboriginal people.
They planned to erase aboriginal existance. Nothing they did in the early days was there to help first nations.

So when someone says Canada created the Indian Act to help first nations, don't kid yourself, it was created to eradicate any semblance of what was once the dominant North American cultures and legally declare first nations extinct with its patriarchal laws.

They tried to do it by isolating tribes so they couldn't meet and possibly gain some sort of upper hand on the new dominion. They subjugated them to ridiculous laws that would have sucked the life out of most people. As I'd mentioned, how would you like to live in a place full of natural resources but you couldn't leave your back yard to tap them without your hyper controlling babysitter telling you to go home? Oh but you could leave, if you sold off your status and left your tribe (which is family, your rock) forever, never being allowed to return, still never being allowed to practice any traditions. And if you failed in the new western world with all the pre-civil rights hassle to deal with... you still can't go home. Welcome to main street and welfare and validating the white man belief that first nations were drunken losers.

With a shattered culture and no dreams in store, is it any wonder generation after generation have a hard time escaping a new harder unwelcoming way of life? I respect the hell out of those old main street bums, and I'm also very sad for them because they'll never escape their pain. I'm lucky. We were able to pretty much fly under the radar for about 150 years thanks in part to the Indian Act's own loopholes. ggg-grandpa despite giving up status, because of where he decided to live - out in a bush town, he had to keep living off the land. I think that's another cornerstone to culture - the land you live on will shape you.

People act like these laws and genocidal customs was 100's of years ago, that we should "get over it" and get a job. But nothing significantly improved until the 1960's when first nations could actually vote in elections without giving up their status. But the schools were still in action until 1996 (21 years ago!) and good luck going past grade 8 with your status intact until the 80's. The next big leap may have been 1985 when women who lost their status rights were able to get them back, as well as one generation of off-spring (still leaving me behind thanks to ggg-grandpa selling out in the 1800's (and future generations still marrying native women who then lost their status). I was able to apply for my rights... uh, sometime in the last 10 years I think with another amendment.

Never having them, I still don't know why I need the federal government to tell me I'm indigenous. Everyone knows. In fact, if it were up to individual tribes, with their own carefully thought out constitutions and solid leadership voted in with their traditional methods, I wouldn't be surprised to find them accepting members who I call honourary indians. Left in a healthy state, we're quite welcoming, eager to share. It's the way of Turtle Island. How do you think Europeans got their foot in the door? If an honourary indian who practices ceremonies, perhaps knows some language, loves the culture and is embraced by that culture wants to be a member of a certain tribe, I don't see why not. Dances with Wolves is a good name eh?

It's a different time we are in now. Perhaps one of the biggest changes is that you can go back home now, to your rock, if you need to. There are many other changes, that list up there is significantly smaller now thanks to proper legal representation. Reconciliation to me is a restorative effort. I do want the Indian Act abolished, but I feel it'll take time. Continue scaling back the issues with it, continue to re-grow old values and customs. I feel if native people and customs were fully revitalized we'd have a ton to offer Canada and we'd all be better off.

The way this thread starts off is a distraction. Meant to point fingers at negative stuff still going on (thanks to how the system was built in the first place) in order to continue to subjugate first nations and ignore all the good things happening. That is only one reason I'm mildly surprised that guy is still allowed to post here.
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  #887  
Old Posted May 11, 2017, 9:54 PM
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Originally Posted by OTA in Winnipeg View Post
Ah fuck. Please don't ban me for this and I'm not the grammar police but this drives me crazy:
http://www.grammar-monster.com/easil...eir_theyre.htm


Nah, thx for pointing it out, ticks me of to. Wish I cared enough to fix it.
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  #888  
Old Posted May 12, 2017, 12:13 PM
JM5 JM5 is offline
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I'm heartened by the contributions of DirtWednesday, pacman, kirkawall among others. This is the type of open dialog we need to have in order for our society to move forward in a way that's more equitable to everyone. The discrimination of the past (and present?) is quite evident but I stand by my belief that the end game must be that there's no such thing as legal aboriginal status or differing rights/privileges, be they beneficial or detrimental. How we eventually get to that point though is the tougher question.
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  #889  
Old Posted May 12, 2017, 4:34 PM
Tacheguy Tacheguy is offline
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I'm heartened by the contributions of DirtWednesday, pacman, kirkawall among others. This is the type of open dialog we need to have in order for our society to move forward in a way that's more equitable to everyone. The discrimination of the past (and present?) is quite evident but I stand by my belief that the end game must be that there's no such thing as legal aboriginal status or differing rights/privileges, be they beneficial or detrimental. How we eventually get to that point though is the tougher question.
i believe the Supreme Court has settled that question based on treaty obligations. Given that, I think it is useful to discuss what a legal, progressive approach to the future looks like. I think this is a huge issue in Canada, where most people want to move forward but just cant visualize what success looks like. hence the defeatism and name calling on both sides.

the only approach I have heard that made intuitive sense to me was to pursue native self government at the tribal level rather than with individual bands. there are many communities out there that are not economically sustainable due to location and size. some framework has to be put in place to allow for rationalization. best this process is shepherded by aboriginal leaders themselves within a negotiated framework with other levels of government. this could also promote individual property rights and improved education outcomes.

anyways I am talking out of my butt here for the most part. I guess I am hopeful that the next generation of bright aboriginal leaders (and they are coming believe me), will articulate a positive and understandable vision for all Canadians that will allow progress to be made.
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  #890  
Old Posted May 12, 2017, 6:14 PM
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i believe the Supreme Court has settled that question based on treaty obligations. Given that, I think it is useful to discuss what a legal, progressive approach to the future looks like. I think this is a huge issue in Canada, where most people want to move forward but just cant visualize what success looks like. hence the defeatism and name calling on both sides.

the only approach I have heard that made intuitive sense to me was to pursue native self government at the tribal level rather than with individual bands. there are many communities out there that are not economically sustainable due to location and size. some framework has to be put in place to allow for rationalization. best this process is shepherded by aboriginal leaders themselves within a negotiated framework with other levels of government. this could also promote individual property rights and improved education outcomes.

anyways I am talking out of my butt here for the most part. I guess I am hopeful that the next generation of bright aboriginal leaders (and they are coming believe me), will articulate a positive and understandable vision for all Canadians that will allow progress to be made.
First off, everything you said about Aboriginal tribes moving forward toward self government makes a lot of sense and there are many places around the world where self-governing regions are a fact. They serve as sub-national organizations which preserve the traditions and ways of life of minorities within a larger country. Different places have different levels of autonomy but those details can be worked out. If this can become a reality, that would be a boon both for aboriginals and for Canada imo.

On the other hand, let me be clear about this: one set of laws governs everyone within one jurisdiction and another set governs everyone while in another jurisdiction. When I travel to another province or country, I am governed by it's laws etc. No more status this or treaty card that or I hunt and fish wherever and whenever I want outside of my "autonomous region". Of course for this to work, the reserves would need to be enlarged, leading to yet another conundrum. Then again I'm not entirely opposed to giving the bands more crown land back (within reason). This could have the effect of making the treaties null and void - an added bonus.
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  #891  
Old Posted May 12, 2017, 6:27 PM
Tacheguy Tacheguy is offline
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that sounds about right. the first nations leadership would have the power to raise revenue through their own taxation decisions, which is going to make them more politically accountable in a hurry. I do think we probably need to exempt certain areas from these negotiations, such as the criminal code, military, banking regulations, foreign policy. and the Canada health act or we might not be a coherent country any longer. some areas could be shared jurisdictions not unlike federal provincial arrangements right now..
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  #892  
Old Posted May 15, 2017, 4:22 PM
DirtWednesday DirtWednesday is offline
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The part about personal land rights doesn't quite jive culturally but there are ways around it to still help foster business. If you as an individual have personal land rights, you have the seedlings of credit and the ability to score a business loan and away you go. You have to think in far more communist terms. Not like Stalen or Mao, far smaller, far more community driven. The way an indigenous society works is having a closer relationship with the Animal Kingdom and nature; knowing what your impact is on the eco-system around you. You in a sense move like a herd. Land ownage? No, more like hunting territory, grazing fields, common watering hole. Funny enough I think it was best said in Earnest Goes to Camp by the old native guy - Who can own a rock? Who can own a tree?

Anyway... How I see things progressing with the building blocks in place now are reserves taking control over their land (and value) from INAC. There are already aboriginal banking and lending corporations out there. With the two, you'd see the corporations with value holdings in reserve land, issue business loans to band members. Corporations charge interest, just like a bank. I'm not certain how they work, whether they then own the band a portion of the profit or what, but it'd be another way to generate income for the band.

As far as resource collecting (hunting/gathering) off reservation... I'm all in favour of it. Especially with re-education of ecological impacts. heh... Kind of funny what I'm proposing... teach the indian how to be indian after generations of taking the indian out of the child. Anyway, I think commercial endevours such as commerical fishing, logging, etc should stay on reserve unless they go through the proper federal channels as any other company would. I believe there is a sustenance law for any Canadian who procures off the land in order to provide solely for their family. Could be wrong about that, could also be hard to prove and fight for if you get caught.
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  #893  
Old Posted May 15, 2017, 6:51 PM
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Nah, thx for pointing it out, ticks me of to. Wish I cared enough to fix it.
OK, now I'm confused. Are you just being careless, or are you stealthily witty?
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  #894  
Old Posted May 15, 2017, 7:24 PM
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OK, now I'm confused. Are you just being careless, or are you stealthily witty?

The latter.
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  #895  
Old Posted May 19, 2017, 2:42 AM
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I believe there is a sustenance law for any Canadian who procures off the land in order to provide solely for their family. Could be wrong about that, could also be hard to prove and fight for if you get caught.
Scandinavian culture has this concept. It's legal for them to forage almost anywhere, including private property. They can't profit off of it, but they can sustain themselves if they need to. We must have something like this in Canada since I know bee keepers and berry pickers who don't seem to have to apply for any kind of licence to do what they do, just find a field and start picking. Although many of them do sell what they get.
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  #896  
Old Posted May 23, 2017, 9:58 PM
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Update from a couple pages back when I mentioned that my daughter was involved with a pow wow club at school. This past Saturday the group danced at the International Pow Wow at the convention centre. All I can say is wow, that event is pretty intense. I said to my wife that it was like Folklorama on steroids! It was really great to see the pride and energy that was on display and couldn't believe the scale and magnitude of the whole thing. As an outsider, I felt very shy, almost like I was intruding. I tried not to disrupt and blend in but I'm sure I stuck out like a sore thumb. That being said everyone was very welcoming and I didn't feel the least bit uncomfortable. It was truly an enjoyable experience for me.

When our kids joined in for the grand entrance I couldn't believe my eyes. They were all so happy and seemed completely oblivious to the obvious strangeness of a bunch of white kids dancing side by side as if it was completely natural. I was afraid the people there would look at this as a stunt and insulted that even these cherished traditions were being mocked, but everyone seemed genuinely charmed by these children.

Later, our group of kids took to the floor all by themselves and danced on their own to the best of their ability with everyone's eyes on them. They seemed to soak it all in and enjoyed every second of it. I'm sure it seemed a bit hokey and contrived to the first nations people who regularly attend. The "emcee" was very gracious and really made the kids feel at home, we are all very grateful. He also highlighted what a great example of reconciliation this represented and was extremely positive about the whole thing.

I just wanted to say that it was a wonderful experience that our kids will never forget, I'm glad we were allowed to share the day, and hope that these traditions continue and will never be forgotten.

I must say that a couple of pages back I was a bit naive when I assumed that my kid's pow wow club was a little more widespread. I realize now that she was part of a pretty rare situation. That being said, I will hang on to my naiveity (is that a word?) and hope that there is a lot more interaction going on like this throughout Winnipeg. I don't see how there could be any negatives associated with our children learning more about this culture.

That being said, I still think that the only way forward is for first nations people to live their lives going forward in the context of what Canada currently is while never forgetting their past and their traditions. That is the way I think this country can move forward not just for first nations people but for all races and backgrounds who have immigrated into Canada.
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  #897  
Old Posted May 24, 2017, 3:50 PM
DirtWednesday DirtWednesday is offline
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Pow Wow - A meeting of nations. A celebration of culture. A place where prayers are made and with all the energy behind a pow wow, many of those prayers have the motivation to be answered.

The Grand Entry is for everyone. If everyone in the audience would participate in the Grand Entry, the Pow Wow as a whole would mean that much more. It's a welcoming ceremony and everyone is welcome.

I think pow wow clubs are as wide spread as you think Pacman, but they're only as good as the leadership running them. My wife, as a teacher, volunteers time in her school's pow wow club. She doesn't run it, she's not a pow wow leader, she's there as an adult number in a room full of kids. Unfortunately the pow wow club in her school is essentially an after school babysitter club without a lot of input from the "elder" running the show. Elder in quotes because well.. he's a young elder, not a lot of experience with these sorts of clubs. Perhaps it'll get better, who know. But I'm happy your kid's club has progressed this far and those kids are confident enough to dance and one of the biggest pow wows in Canada.

Quote:
That being said, I still think that the only way forward is for first nations people to live their lives going forward in the context of what Canada currently is while never forgetting their past and their traditions. That is the way I think this country can move forward not just for first nations people but for all races and backgrounds who have immigrated into Canada.
I agree with this, however, with remaining funding, we need to do whatever we can to repair (nearly) lost traditions and language. Can't just pull the plug one day. It's like tying a serious knot and then simply cutting it loose. Well you won't have the previously strong rope, you'll have busted fragments strewn about.
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  #898  
Old Posted May 24, 2017, 9:56 PM
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Maybe we should have a thread that talks about how freedom of speech has slowly been eroded in Canada and where differing views other than the usual leftist dribble are verboten, ie; at the Free Press or CBC.


I agree, we are entering an age in Canada where freedom to express truth is no longer allowed.

Like David Icke says..."Everything is topsy turvy. Everything is upside down.'

All The World Is Mad - David Icke & John Lennon

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  #899  
Old Posted May 24, 2017, 11:19 PM
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I agree, we are entering an age in Canada where freedom to express truth is no longer allowed.
I think we're actually entering an era where the freedom to express truth is being embraced, and old lies are being debunked and discouraged.
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  #900  
Old Posted May 25, 2017, 12:33 AM
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If people are arguing, that's a sure sign that freedom of speech is healthy. Just because people push back when you try to railroad them with your beliefs does not mean you aren't free to speak; it means that they are also free to speak.

This is why I'm an ardent supporter of the message board as a form of interaction: we get talking. If you want to see free speech in trouble, look no further than your social media feed.
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