Halifax Stadium Discussion

[c-way-dude]

I am disappointed, but not surprised, at the choice to proceed with a 12-14k stadium. If done properly, it can still be a major boost to getting a CFL team in Halifax.
First of all, it can't be done at St. Mary's, as that site is too small. It seems like the city is preferring Shannon Park or Burnside, at least according to the mayor's opinion column from a couple of days ago.
What I hope to see happen is for Halifax to build a stadium with 12-14k along the sidelines, sunk in the ground like the lower decks at U. of Akron's InfoCision Stadium or Stanford Stadium. At least that should make adding upper decks less expensive as they would be able to place the upper decks not all that high above ground level. It could provide Halifax with the 25k stadium and open end zones to add temporary seating to host the Grey Cup.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by CorbeauNoir

MLS ready? I think it'd be awesome if Halifax had an MLS team but it's probably about as feasable as Halifax getting an NHL team...

Unfortunately, I have to agree. Ottawa applied for an MLS team and was turned down.

There are other professional soccer leagues that Halifax could possibly get a team in but they are lower tiers than MLS. A North American Soccer League team is a possibility - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_A...gue_%282010%29. However, 10,000 seats would be adequate for the NASL based on current stadium sizes in that league.

The league that Halifax should be trying for is the CFL. Instead of considering a stadium with all the amenities which doesn't make financial sense, a Percival Molson type stadium could be considered (without luxury boxes until required). The report makes reference to type B seats which could make up the majority of the seats. Having a majority of type A seats (all enclosed internal space) may sound like a grand idea but I don't think it is practical for a stadium that won't see many large events per year.

In my opinion, instead of thinking smaller but with all enclosed concourse space (type A seats), Halifax should be think bigger but simpler and less costly construction. Hopefully this will be considered in more detail in the next phase. There are many medium sized US university stadiums that don't have many large events per year but have built 25,000 seats or more by going with a practical design (example: InfoCision Stadium).

Here are some examples of relatively inexpensive stadium (based on cost per seat) that are built with a majority of type B seats:
Rentschler Field - Bird's Eye View - Wikipedia Link
Princeton Stadium - Bird's Eye View - Wikipedia Link
Calgary's McMahon Stadium (used for a CFL team) - Bird's Eye View - Wikipedia Link

[ATL Stadium]

Is there any other term that could apply to the Stadium situation?

Likely many more but that's the one comes first to my mind!

In my opinion the CFL and perhaps other sport opportunities down the road would be placed on the bottom of the list. I know that many feel if the Stadium were planned for a CFL size (25,000 perm seats) that no Federal funding would be in the mix.
What ever happened to being open and honest...here is an opportunity to apply funding to a build for a the FIFA possibility......but why hide behind that not say....hey we are not short sighted we want to make this work for just this one event...we want to attract a CFL franchise....we want to plan a 25,000 seat Stadium expandable to 40,000....the min requirements for CFL. If soccer is attracted great, if other events and rent opportunities come up great....but why would any other consideration be acceptable.????

I guess we are stuck with a revamped SMU site.... Go Huskies!

Very disappointed!!!!

[q12]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

The league that Halifax should be trying for is the CFL. Instead of considering a stadium with all the amenities which doesn't make financial sense, a Percival Molson type stadium could be considered (without luxury boxes until required). The report makes reference to type B seats which could make up the majority of the seats. Having a majority of type A seats (all enclosed internal space) may sound like a grand idea but I don't think it is practical for a stadium that won't see many large events per year.

In my opinion, instead of thinking smaller but with all enclosed concourse space (type A seats), Halifax should be think bigger but simpler and less costly construction. Hopefully this will be considered in more detail in the next phase. There are many medium sized US university stadiums that don't have many large events per year but have built 25,000 seats or more by going with a practical design (example: InfoCision Stadium).

I agree fenwick that the CFL has to be the goal. This report still hasn't looked at the cost for construction which should factor into the seating capacity. Why not build it with mostly type B seats (or even benches) to bring the cost per seat down so that we can get close to that 24-25,000 number.

I hope once phase 2 looks at construction costs, that they will realize that a larger capacity stadium can be affordable and will put us where we need to be to attract the CFL.

All funding options need to be considered to build this thing as well. Of course the 3 levels of government, private, corporate, naming rights, and don't forget the possibility FIFA providing legacy funding. I still think a trust fund should be set up so anyone who believes strongly in this can put money towards it.

From: http://www.halifax.ca/council/agenda...02ca3iicow.pdf

An important variant is to build out a complete grandstand in the order of 10,000 or more seats,
together with the seating on the opposing side of the field. This would yield somewhere in the
order of 13,000 to 15,000 seats overall and can include the necessary roof structure, on the main
grandstand. However, any full build out of the grandstand to accommodate a professional
sporting franchise or other operations in the future would include corporate boxes as part of the
grandstand. There is no market need at present to build corporate boxes at the facility in the
absence of regular professional sporting events. In order to reduce unnecessary capital costs, the
option to build an entire permanent complement of seats and corporate boxes on the main
grandstand is unwarranted at this time. However, the option for creating additional permanent
seats on site is also a function of incremental capital costs, marginal operating costs associated
with the additional seats, and the potential to avoid purchasing or renting temporary seating for
larger events. The merit of an incremental permanent seat addition above 10,000 should be
addressed in Phase 2 as part of the capital cost and design review.

This is a good point that if we can build the the 25,000 seat option now, the operating costs associated with those extra seats is not significant (especially with bench seating).

4. Professional Franchise Seating Options
The remaining options pertain to the consideration of a 20,000 seat permanent facility as well as
a 25,000 permanent facility. The former relates to the needs for a typical MLS franchise and the
latter for a CFL franchise. Based on the market opportunity at present, there are a limited
number of soccer or exhibition football games that can likely be attracted to this facility that would require (or benefit) from the facility being advertised as a 20,000 permanent seat facility.
This is because other venues will also compete for these games.
The cost-benefit equation does not warrant the additional capital expense at this time. More
important is the expandability of this facility should these market conditions change and provide
realistic potential for achieving regular events of significant spectator scale. The above
conclusions take into account that the additional capital cost do not translate into proportional
increases in operating costs of the facility. Given this, the more relevant comparison is between
capital cost of incremental permanent seating and its depreciation and lifecycle maintenance
costs, versus the merit of temporary seating on an as needed basis. In short, 1 or more 20,000
person games in each of 3 consecutive years would cost the equivalent of permanent seating.
However, this excludes various building upgrades and services that are inevitably required when
transitioning from temporary to permanent seats, irrespective of whether the market opportunity
for large scale events is likely to be maintained. Based on the uncertainty surrounding the
capacity for regular large scale spectator events, the option of building 20,000 permanent seats at
the outset is not recommended.

Expandability is defiantly the key however if we build enough permanent seating now we can attract the CFL sooner rather than later. If we build it they will come.

[c-way-dude]

IIRC, FIFA doesn't allow bench seating for tournaments. That is probably why a stadium would have to have all type A seating. However, any additional permanent seating added after the tournament could be benches. The upper deck on the south side of Lansdowne Park in Ottawa was all bench seating, as is the additional seating added to McMahon Stadium along the end zone sidelines for the opening and closing ceremonies of the 1988 Winter Olympics.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by c-way-dude

IIRC, FIFA doesn't allow bench seating for tournaments. That is probably why a stadium would have to have all type A seating. However, any additional permanent seating added after the tournament could be benches. The upper deck on the south side of Lansdowne Park in Ottawa was all bench seating, as is the additional seating added to McMahon Stadium along the end zone sidelines for the opening and closing ceremonies of the 1988 Winter Olympics.

Based on the definition given in the report, A-style seating refers to grandstands with finished interior space. B-style refers to seating with open space below. B-style seating can still be individual seats, concrete/steel with washrooms and concessions but it is not finished, enclosed space. Often the washrooms/concessions are adjacent to the stands but not under (this makes the stands design very basic, but it can still be very solid with proper seats). Having all backed seats versus bench style seats probably won't add that much to the cost (probably not much more than $1,000,000 - $2,000,000 dollars for a 20,000 seat stadium). What adds to the cost is having totally enclosed, occupied space within the stands (A-style seating). The reason for this is that there are many additional costs required (proper ventilation, fire sprinklers, fire exit doors, proper firewalls, etc - costs associated with proper fire safety required by the National Building Code for enclosed space containing large numbers of people).

For example:

This would be all A-style seating (the Moncton Stadium Grandstand http://www.toacanada.com/works/education.html ):


This stand would be all B style seating BMO Field East Stand (source: Wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMO_Field ):


These two stadiums are all B-style seating even though they are solid concrete construction, and they could even have folding seats if so desired:
(Texas Bobcats Stadium - source: http://katfans.com/facilities.html )

(Goodman Stadium - http://georgetownfootball.blogspot.c...from-road.html )



Halifax could have a large, impressive stadium built of concrete/steel with all the necessary washrooms and concessions if the design is based on B-style unenclosed space instead of A-style enclosed space.

[resetcbu1]

From the CH today .... If you read most comments are in favour of a larger stadium, why won't the people with the power listen to the masses?


Stadium idea deserves closer look — committee
By MICHAEL LIGHTSTONE City Hall Reporter
Sat, Jul 30 - 5:54 PM
A city hall committee says Halifax could build a 10,000-seat stadium for sports and other events.


And regional council should authorize the second phase of a study examining the feasibility of the multi-use venue, new reports to council say.

The next phase of research, if approved, would look at design proposals for such a project and suggest candidate sites.

Phase 2 of the study would cost taxpayers around $275,000, according to a municipal staff report. Council already authorized $100,000 for the study’s first phase.

The recommendation to continue studying the proposed stadium is in a city staff report and a report from Halifax’s stadium steering committee, a 15-member volunteer group that’s been looking into the project for months.

Both documents and a consultant’s study were released Friday and are to go to regional council Tuesday.

The proposed stadium would have 10,000 permanent seats with temporary seating doubling the capacity. Should the politicians OK the stadium study’s second phase, it doesn’t mean the proposed development is going ahead. Council can still pull the plug after the next round of analysis is finished.

"While the eventual decision may very well be to not construct a stadium at this time, regional council would benefit from a better understanding of the size, scope, and more detailed costs of stadium options and their viability," the staff report says. "It is staff’s opinion that proceeding with Phase 2 is a reasonable course of action."

A Phase 2 report should be ready for council’s consideration in December.

The consultant’s study says there’s a business case for moving forward with a proposed venue, and that includes winter-use options under a temporary stadium cover.

But the staff report contains issues that are potentially problematic.

"The average event days per year could be in the order of 50," the staff document says.

"Almost all have some degree of spectator capacity, however, some are very modest. Major ticketed events are limited; while a number exist annually, these events compete with the rest of Canada and international locations."

The staff report also notes "no core professional sport franchise has been identified. A professional sporting franchise in football or soccer has not been established in Halifax."

According to the consultant’s study, the stadium would run a deficit of up to $475,000 a year. It says there would be economic and social benefits to having a venue, including millions of dollars in economic spinoffs.

A Canadian Football League expansion team for Halifax has been talked about on and off for many years. Halifax hosted a CFL exhibition game a few years ago; Moncton had a regular season game last year and will host another this season.

About 400,000 people live in the Halifax area. The city staff report says "support for new and additional facilities has been expressed by a number of (local) sport groups and it is anticipated that, as sport participation continues to grow in the region, most groups will require additional facilities in the near to medium term."

Halifax Regional Municipality officials are considering a stadium, in part, to host an international women’s soccer tournament in 2015, a coast-to-coast competition that could include the Nova Scotia capital.

It won’t be known for some time whether Halifax will be one of the six sites for the FIFA Women’s World Cup. Canada will host the tournament, held this year in Germany, and a companion event in 2014.

Several Canadian cities, including Moncton, are vying to be among the sites selected to put on the soccer matches. FIFA, the governing body for soccer, requires stadiums with a minimum of 20,000 seats.

Even though Halifax doesn’t currently have a venue, that doesn’t mean the municipality will be excluded from hosting. The Canadian Soccer Association plans to announce the host cities for the Women’s World Cup in early 2012.

A stadium could cost about $60 million, Halifax officials have said, but the bottom line is unknown. Mayor Peter Kelly has said the proposed project, if built, would be constructed with public funds from the three levels of government and money from the private sector.

Taxpayers don’t know how much each proposed funding partner would contribute to the development.

Coun. Darren Fisher (East Dartmouth-The Lakes), a stadium booster and member of the city’s steering committee, said the $60-million amount is pure speculation at this point.

"If you don’t have design or location (costs), it’s really a ballpark" figure, he said.

[CorbeauNoir]

I just don't really see what the point of a 10000-seat facility would be - we already have one of those.

[-Harlington-]

10,000 seats would be a waste of money and space

that extra bit of money for more seats is that extra bit that wouldnt have to be paid in a few years .

[resetcbu1]

Originally Posted by -Harlington-

10,000 seats would be a waste of money and space

that extra bit of money for more seats is that extra bit that wouldnt have to be paid in a few years .

Especially when the cost per seat will only go up in the future. They mention how we dont have a pro team lined up to support the business case for a larger stadium but what pro team would wanna move into this waste of money ,we'll never attract one if we don't have the proper facillity to begin with,they also mention how rarely the stadium would be filled......Well thats because we would'nt have a large draw ticket item such as the CFL or MLS. dissapointing news.

[cormiermax]

Well, this is turning into a waist of time and money. 10,000 seats is completely useless. It looks like we'll end up with some dinky little Moncton stadium.

[icetea93]

I agree that a 10 000 seat stadium would be a waste of money. It would work nicely for a city of 100 000 -200 000 people, but not for a mid-sized city that serves as the economic capital of the region... I think we need at least 20 000- 25 000 permanent seats, expandable to accommodate more people (30 000-35 000).

[thurmas]

10-14000 makes no sense whatsoever because the cfl needs 25,000 and any potential owner for a cfl club will have to ask the city,province and feds to help pay to expand this mini 10-14k seater to 25,000. This will just cost even more in future construction costs if you even a get a team now with this sub par rinky dink stadium.

[reddog794]

It may seem silly but if they said 15k I would okay with that.

A grueling reality is we do not have a franchise lined up for either MLS or CFL. The whole lynch pin of the schooners was a stadium was to be built. They were doing studies back then about the feasibility of a stadium. And here we are.

If we get the studium built and get the host seat, and do it well, I would imagine there would be potential owners looking to help finance an expansion of 5-6k more seats. We just need to get SOMETHING built. Or it's just 83 all over again.

Let's not worry about the initial size when the committee loudly pointed out it has to be expandable. Halifax doesnt seem to do big steps that well. Look at the CWG.

[thurmas]

Halifax has no chance at MLS when cities double or more it's size like Ottawa,Winnipeg,Edmonton, and Calgary have no chance at MLS.

[fenwick16]

I don't think that the MLS is a serious consideration, but Halifax can build a basic 15,000 - 20,000 seat stadium that can be used for soccer tournaments like the FIFA Womens' Cup, possibly a future NASL team, the CFL (with stadium expansion) and concerts. It can also be used for the Vanier Cup. There are several uses for a reasonably priced stadium without being a burden on tax-payers. One interesting fact that was pointed out in the report, is that a stadium that is capable of hosting a professional team could generate significant revenue through naming rights. However, in my opinion, there is a better chance of that with a 20,000 seat stadium than with a 10,000 seat stadium (I think that I am just stating the obvious).

The study that was just completed was intended to be a business plan as opposed to the next phase which will investigate stadium designs in much more detail.

The report gave details on the Pizza Hut Stadium in Frisco, TX which is a Dallas suburb. The cost of the main stadium structure is given as $35 million. The details given on the Pizza Hut Stadium are below:

(source: page 246 of 293 of the report pdf file - http://www.halifax.ca/council/agenda...02ca3iicow.pdf)

Amenities and Features
Pizza Hut Park features:
 Total of 180 club and suite seating
 Consists of 17 tournament-grade fields for youth and high school soccer
 Video displays
 Permanent stage
 Open view concession stands
 6,500 sq ft private stadium club available for rental
 17 luxury suites (500 sq ft each)
 Dr. Pink Field is used for high school football and soccer
 Pavilion area at centre of sports park with concessions, restrooms, tournament headquarters, first aid, picnic tables
 3,183 parking spaces
Capital Project Details
Capital costs for the project included:
 Land purchase: $18.6 million
 Roads and infrastructure: $3.4 million
 Parking: $3 million
 Tournament fields: $5 million
 Main stadium: $35 million
 Total project cost: $65 million, plus $25 million in enhancements with cost overruns responsibility of Hunt Sports Group

Here is a Bird's Eye View - http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=phs...50&form=LMLTCC


(source: worldstadiums.com - http://www.worldstadiums.com/stadium...izza_hut.shtml)

[reddog794]

I don't think the MLS is a viable option yet either.

But that's beside the point, due to the stick-in-the mud variable. We need to ease the idea of a mass entertainment stadium into the minds of the "Bruce Devines".

Think of it like a bechemal sauce, you need a slowly gradual heat to impart the wOw taste of the caramelized onion/clove/bay leaf (awesome, get down, Hey Hoo and Away we Go Schooners!! Stadium) into the stubborn milk (NIMBy citizens). If too fast the milk will scorch and so much for a sexy cheese sauce (CWG stadium, I mean reall that would have been an iconic piece of sports and entertainment!! Totally ranking with grandmas mac and cheese baby)

[fenwick16]

I am starting to prefer a location with lots of available space. One thing that the report mentioned, but didn't discuss in detail, is a sports campus concept. Although Halifax probably won't get a MLS team (maybe NASL instead), it can take a lesson from the MLS stadium designs which tend to be fairly basic but popular with fans.

If Halifax decides to go with a campus style then there are real cost advantages to be gained. Once a stadium is in place then the same washrooms can be used for a separate, but adjacent, minor league baseball stadium (6,000 capacity would be enough) and separate 400 meter track. The parking spaces can also be shared by staggering sports events.

[c-way-dude]

The report estimates that a stadium would be used about 50 times a year. If the stadium also included a dome set up over the playing field for the winter, it could used by a wider number of local sports organizations. A winter dome covering most of the field at Frank Clair Stadium in Ottawa has been very successful.

[wespidel]

In my opinion their are certain advisory members that had their own agenda and motives to support the local community groups to build a replacement stadium for Saint Marys and that was their only interest and main objective and that is why you have the outcome you have currently, which could change quite rapidly. I can guarantee you that the two councillors and Mayor Kelly that were also on the advisory board are not in agreement with these recommodations and I`m sure there will other councillors not in favour as well which could make it interesting tomorrow. It`s very upsetting to hear a member of the advisory stadium committee on local CBC TV local news on Friday encouraging and pitching the public on a tiny little dinky 10 thousand seat permanent seat community type replacement stadium for Saint Marys, better known has the Sue Uteck Special and trying to sell the public hard on this wee facility and stating clearly that`s all the stadium Halifax needs, when the Halifax airport where he has a big job, are increasing fees and expanding the airport in a big way costing millions and millions! This seems somewhat bias and contradictory! I believe this member has no vision and only one interest and actually meant to say it`s all Saint Marys and Soccer NS and the community groups need!

Well the reality is that the residents of Halifax and the region to not want this tiny little dinky ridiculous, embarrassing eyesore facility! They want a bigger and better modestly priced 25 to 30 thousand permanent seat stadium with all the amenities that can be expanded to 45 or 50 thousand for other major events and that is the fact and that is what the majority of people want and yes these same people what the 10th CFL to land in Halifax and the first ever Grey Cup Game in Atlantic Canada and they want a stadium that can accommodate large concerts and yes they want Halifax to be the professional sports and entertainment capital of Atlantic Canada.

Sorry people that have other opinions but you aren`t the majority of people who will be supporting a major facility.

I will suggest if you are on board with these small time community groups and members, get out of the city and more to a town and build your own tiny little stadium and stop trying to take away the best opportunity Halifax and the province has to build a real major stadium. I hope this time there is a uproar in this city if a major stadium is not built and Saint Marys gets a 10 peramnent seat thousand facility as a free gift and the real sports and entainterment fan gets screwed, especially after Dexter`s govt. robbed the taxpayers for 100`s of millions of dollars at the pumps with their additional 2 % HST hike and gas their tax on tax grab!

So Premier Dexter if you want 47 million dollars from the Feds for your new Convention Centre you better step up at the plate soon because unless you give back the same amount or more as your contribution towards a major stadium, you can`t really expect Ottawa to give a unpopular NPD govt. anything especially where the majority of the public want a major stadium built and not a convention centre.


Someone has to stand up for what the people want!