Halifax Stadium Discussion

[halifaxboyns]

I'm not surprised by this - I'll have a look at the web feed of CBC later. But they've never been supportive of anything really. Council could have approved something that everyone thought would be great - they'd still do a negative piece on it.

[fenwick16]

It seems as though most University teams prefer to play as close to their campus as possible. So I am not surprised that SMU would want to play regular season games on campus. Also, players would be taking courses on campus so it will be the most practical choice to have the practices on campus. On the other hand, the Vanier Cup would be a different matter - I think that it could be held at a stadium in Dartmouth (since it is a special event that can generate larger crowds).

Unfortunately, I think this is more of an issue than many people think. If the stadium is in Dartmouth then I don't think that the SMU Huskies will be playing their games there.

I am not advocating a Halifax location for a stadium (it might be better to have a location with lots of space whether it be in Dartmouth or suburban Halifax)), but these are issues that need to be considered in more detail in the phase 2 study. So I certainly hope that it will proceed.

Originally Posted by q12

CBC NEWS HALIFAX @ 5:30 just aired a story on the stadium that talked about stadium site locations and how the Mayor and Peter Mackay prefer Dartmouth (burnside) or Shannon Park for obvious reasons. Than the reporter said there is the issue of will people from Halifax go to a stadium in Dartmouth?

I am starting to like the Shannon Park location, but it would have to have very good public transportation connections to work, in my opinion. However, I would also get excited about a Halifax urban location similar to Montreal's Molson Stadium.

[wespidel]

Mason admitted that the problem at city council yesterday, is that certain councillors and the majority of the public want a CFL model stadium which is totally correct but he indicated that it would cost a quarter of a million dollars more than Winnipeg`s 200 million dollar 33 thousand permanent seat stadium, which has all the latest most modern amenities.

Based on the price that the Halifax stadium advisory steering committee is costing, this could be true, if it was factored out at their current 375 thousand dollar price for the amount of work they did and provided and actually met as a committee, especially if they were to hire these super over- priced type companies to build a modestly priced major CFL model stadium that should cost 100 million and not double the price. Yes, if Halifax builds a stadium like Winnipeg`s, it would cost 200 million but that is not what Halifax needs and should build, to build a CFL model stadium, but it sure would be nice!

If Halifax hires the best architect and engineer out of Dal. and not overpriced firms and buys all their material locally, concrete and steel direct. I believe Halifax could easily build a CFL model stadium similar to Montreal`s McGill stadium which has all the amenities and it probably could even have backed seats and perchaps a nicer design based on my research and info that I gathered from experts who assured me that Halifax could build it for 100 million if they build it modestly, especially if they build it right cost wise and build it where they get the land free, or at a deal.

The key is to farm the work out locally for the best price and to fine a location for a song and you would be surprised what type of facility could be built for 100 million!

[fenwick16]

The Mayor has already given cost data indicating $2,200 per seat which is in line with US university stadiums and even stadiums such as Calgary's McMahon Stadium ($1,000,000 in 1960 for 22,000 seats) and the Edmonton's Commonwealth Stadium.

This is why phase 2 should proceed; to put an end to the misinformation going around. It is obvious to most of us that a stadium doesn't have to cost $100 million, and certainly not $200 million dollars. Halifax could just built a post-expansion Saputo-type stadium for $40 million with 20,000 seats, plus cost for land and parking.

When people keep inflating the stadium cost then I wonder if they having connections with a builder? I understand Waye Mason's reason for misinformation - he just doesn't want to see the stadium built. But why do you keep inflating the numbers wespidel? You say that you have the highest respect for the Mayor, so why don't you accept his cost numbers and just accept his decision on the stadium?

[Waye Mason]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

When people keep inflating the stadium cost then I wonder if they having connections with a builder? I understand Waye Mason's reason for misinformation - he just doesn't want to see the stadium built. But why do you keep inflating the numbers wespidel? You say that you have the highest respect for the Mayor, so why don't you accept his cost numbers and just accept his decision on the stadium?

Oh Fenwick, just when we were getting along so well!

It is not miss-information to say all current under construction CFL stadiums, proposed or building, are $150-225 million. It is fact. It is supposition (well researched and vigourously defended by several posters on this board) that you can "do it for less" but as I have said before, I doubt all the other cities are dumber than Halifax and are spending money they don't have to. That does not compute.

Also, I said a vocal minority wants a CFL stadium at any cost. I never said the majority of folks want a CFL stadium. I said that probably a majority of folks want a stadium, but when the costs of a stadium range from Moncton at $17 million, up to $225 million for a full on CFL ready stadium, what does that mean?

I also said that when your Rec budget is $17 million a year that an extra $500K plus is going to give people pause.

I did endorse doing phase 2, on air. So take that, you naysayers!

ANYWAY: look - you want CFL? Get off the pot. Declare a meeting time, invite the public and set up a CEDIF co-operatively owned company. Do a Balsillie in Hamilton mixed with the Sask Roughriders share drive, and get 10,000 people to put in $500 for shares and $150 for seasons tickets, put it in trust.

To quote Spinal Tap - money talks, bullshit walks. If you had $6.5 million in trust to get the Schooners going, then people would pay attention!

Prove the market first! I would be happy to be proven wrong, but until there is some movement that shows really large support for this team, I just don't believe it, and I cannot imagine why we would build a CFL ready stadium when there is no actual anchor tenant on the horizon.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

Oh Fenwick, just when we were getting along so well!

It is not miss-information to say all current under construction CFL stadiums, proposed or building, are $150-225 million. It is fact. It is supposition (well researched and vigourously defended by several posters on this board) that you can "do it for less" but as I have said before, I doubt all the other cities are dumber than Halifax and are spending money they don't have to. That does not compute..

Are you really this simple? You cherry-pick the high cost stadiums and ignore all the low priced stadium that have been very successful. Based on your arguments, the Argonauts should be very successful at the Rogers Centre where they have 50,000 seats, a retractable roof and every amenity ever imagined but instead they would like to move into an expanded BMO Field.

[wespidel]

Mayor Kelly I believe is smart enough business wise to know what he is talking about and he certainly knows if it`s built in the right location and built in a cost efficient way, that yes a 25 thousand permanent seat stadium with all the amenities can be built for 100 million and it will be a pretty decent facility. Don`t worry Mayor Kelly has done is homework and that is why he is pushing for this type of stadium to be built!

Case and point!

Here is some interesting pointers which totally confirms what I been saying, which I knew all along and earlier posted...... you will see, let it all enfold!
Well it`s starting to!

Pointers: Mayor Kelly has already approached Saint Marys and they do not want to support a stadium unless they get it built at Saint Marys and that is fact.

The reason Mayor Kelly wants Saint Marys at the table and needs their support, is because the Feds will help to build a CFL model stadium if there is a university football team attached, like what`s happening in Winnipeg now.

Mayor Kelly wants it built at Shannon Park first if the Feds are involved and will commit to support the project and Dartmouth crossing is only a back- up plan. Mayor Kelly wants these locations because he wants to keep the land costs down so they can afford to build a bigger and better facility. So it`s extremely crucial that there is plenty of land to build other commerical projects around the stadium, like they are going to do in Ottawa, which the CFL commissioner has suggested. Mayor Kelly is the key and has the knowledge and business background to know how to make a major stadium project work and be viable.

Sue Uteck indicated tonight on TV that she wants her Sue Uteck Special stadium, that the steering committee Vice Chair and the head of Saint Marys are pushing for, built at Saint Marys and that is why it`s only a 10 thousand permanent seat stadium and not a bigger and better facility being proposed!Sue Uteck even said that if a stadium was built in Dart. and not at Saint Marys, that she will never attend a game if a stadium is built in Dart. What does that tell you, doesn`t it confirm what I been saying all along! That`s why a mickey mouse 10 thousand permanent seat stadium is being proposed, so it`s built at Saint Marys!

So I suspect if this changes next week and the majority of council wants a bigger and better facility, you will see Sue Uteck not support a 25 permanent seat stadium especially if it is built in Dart. and not close to Saint Marys.

But to be honest, you saw the list of councillors that are voting it down and you can probably add Sue Uteck and maybe more! So there, there is your city council and their insanely bias steering committee members who are behind the Vice Chair and Saint Marys and Sue Uteck, but not Mayor Kelly and councillor Fisher who are totally against their mickey mouse stadium proposal. Councillor Sloane is probably on Sue Uteck`s side and may go against a major stadium proposal and then the whole project will be dead, which is probably already dead now!

[Waye Mason]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Are you really this simple? You cherry-pick the high cost stadiums and ignore all the low priced stadium that have been very successful. Based on your arguments, the Argonauts should be very successful at the Rogers Centre where they have 50,000 seats, a retractable roof and every amenity ever imagined but instead they would like to move into an expanded BMO Field.

Fenwick, why are you calling me names?

Please list these low cost stadiums that are currently planned or being built for CFL franchises.

[Empire]

For my #1000th post I would like to appeal to HRM council to give serious consideration to the stadium proposal. The Halifax region has tremendous potential to be a leader in commerce, tourism, culture, entertainment, education, R&D, shipbuilding, medical services, aerospace, engineering, heritage preservation, and yes, sporting events.

Halifax has lost an opportunity for a CFL team (Atlantic Schooners), two Commonwealth Game bids and countless events and concerts over the last 30 years. Any progressive community would view a stadium as a positive statement in promoting fitness and community spirit. If this opportunity is lost it will most certainly be another 10-20 years before the topic arises again. Everyone in this community still feels the pain of the lost Commonwealth Games bid. This stadium proposal is not a lot of money in the grand scheme of things and the rewards can be huge which in turn will create a sense of pride in the community and promote positive growth.

Let’s build a 20,000 permanent seat stadium and celebrate our youth, our heritage and our sense of community.

[Urban_Genius]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Are you really this simple? You cherry-pick the high cost stadiums and ignore all the low priced stadium that have been very successful. Based on your arguments, the Argonauts should be very successful at the Rogers Centre where they have 50,000 seats, a retractable roof and every amenity ever imagined but instead they would like to move into an expanded BMO Field.

The argos season ticket holders have on multiple occasions rejected the notion to move to BMO field (which can't even happen do to logistics). The current argos owner isn't interested in leaving Skydome either. It was the previous incompetent owners who didn't know how to run their business and saw BMO field as a last ditched effort.

[Urban_Genius]

It's great to see Halifax seriously looking at building a stadium. This is far overdue. Although, it really makes no sense to build:

A) A micky-mouse stadium
B) A 15 000 seat stadium

Hopefully those in charge have more foresight to realize that it's best to do thing properly from scratch. Now's the time to decide if you should make the proper investment in your community, city, province etc. It's also not worth cutting corners. At the end of the day, I think it's better to invest 80-100 million to build something worthwhile, than to try to squeeze something in for 40-60 million, but that may be just me.

[wespidel]

I suggust if you don`t follow the CFL regularly and haven`t ever talked to a current CFL franchise owner and the CFL commissioner about what is needed in a CFL model stadium today, seating capacity wise and feature wise, that are necessary to have inorder to be profitable, then please don`t make judgements or suggestions. All the new CFL stadiums that are being built now and in the future, including Montreal`s newly renovated CFL stadium have and will have the right CFL model where a CFL owner can be viable and can all host a Grey Cup game to be even more profitable. I been in every CFL stadium and have been to 12 Grey Cups and have attended the CFL commissioner meetings at Grey Cups on the state of the league and watch, read and follow the CFL faithfully and don`t watch the NFL period which I feel is totally over- rated and super over- hyped and is what I call, American outdooor arena football!

I also truely believe Mayor Kelly has done his homework and has also been well informed and knows what a stadium needs in seating capacity and knows what it needs in the latest, most modern amenities!

Just be careful on the business aspect of a CFL franchise until you really know and I believe only the CFL commissioner and the current CFL owners and the new owner`s group in Ottawa really know and what business plan is needed to be successful, that is why Montreal renovated their stadium and added more skyboxes and concourses with more concession stands which all CFL stadiums need as well as VIP boxes and lounges and restaurants, which all the new CFL stadiums will have to have!

[q12]

Have a look at this video from CTV ATLANTIC:
http://atlantic.ctv.ca/?video=510572

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by q12

Have a look at this video from CTV ATLANTIC:
http://atlantic.ctv.ca/?video=510572

Thanks for posting some real information.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by wespidel

I suggust if you don`t follow the CFL regularly and haven`t ever talked to a current CFL franchise owner and the CFL commissioner about what is needed in a CFL model stadium today, seating capacity wise and feature wise, that are necessary to have inorder to be profitable, then please don`t make judgements or suggestions. All the new CFL stadiums that are being built now and in the future, including Montreal`s newly renovated CFL stadium have and will have the right CFL model where a CFL owner can be viable and can all host a Grey Cup game to be even more profitable. I been in every CFL stadium and have been to 12 Grey Cups and have attended the CFL commissioner meetings at Grey Cups on the state of the league and watch, read and follow the CFL faithfully and don`t watch the NFL period which I feel is totally over- rated and super over- hyped and is what I call, American outdooor arena football!

I also truely believe Mayor Kelly has done his homework and has also been well informed and knows what a stadium needs in seating capacity and knows what it needs in the latest, most modern amenities!

Just be careful on the business aspect of a CFL franchise until you really know and I believe only the CFL commissioner and the current CFL owners and the new owner`s group in Ottawa really know and what business plan is needed to be successful, that is why Montreal renovated their stadium and added more skyboxes and concourses with more concession stands which all CFL stadiums need as well as VIP boxes and lounges and restaurants, which all the new CFL stadiums will have to have!

So where is the disconnect here. We have a council that is borderline going to axe a 10,000 seat stadium with zero amenities and you are advocating a $120 million stadium with all the bells and whistles. ????????

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Empire

• the funding options should have part of phase one....this council can't decide unless they are handed a blank cheque

• more emphasis should be placed on economic spinoff activity....spinoffs are not a handout but need to be earned by having vision and investing in infrastructure

• the Watts school of thought is old hat. A stadium is a long overdue piece of infrastructure and should have been built in 1983 or at least funds should have been raised since then. No it doesn't make money so why not close the museums, parks, libraries, commons, skate parks, and rec centres.

• I would like to hear the rationale of how Halifax can't have a stadium when it is likely the only municipality of its size in North American without one

• there seems to be no thought given to the endless stream of negative publicity and can't do attitude that fosters here

• there seems to be no thought given to the possibilities of events like the 2015 FIFA World Cup could bring to the region

I agree with everything that you have stated.

Unfortunately the Sierra report indicated that there were few real funding options. I think that the HRM should go ahead with phase 2 but propose a basic but solid design of about 25,000 seats and then try to arrange funding. I don't think that funding for even a $60 million dollar stadium will be easy and it could take years.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

The budget implications of $250-495,000 a year (depreciation and operating) are not insignificant when the Rec budget is only $17 million a year.

2.92% (rounded up) is significant? It's certainly not budget crushing...if it got up to double digits before the decimal, I'd be fearful.

I've also been looking into Moncton's budget. They approved for 2011 a recreation budget of about $9.1 million, from what I could find. But I can't seem to find the impacts on their budget for a stadium. Considering the range you've suggested, I'd say it's probably around $200k - but that's an assumption. Still even if that's around correct, still 2.2% roughly as an impact on their budget.

Fenwick - was there any thought about looking at a costing formula similar to Nova Centre - where the cost is drawn out over a longer period? I wonder if that should be part of the next step of the examination. What I mean is: Not just look at the size, but the cost as well. So you could cost out a bare bones 15,000 seat stadium, 20k, 25k and then maybe up to 40k/50k? Then how much that would cost bare bones, then with average facilities and then all included and then over 10, 20 or 30 years? I have to admit I haven't been keeping up with this as much - so I'm hoping you or someone on here might be able to answer my question.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by q12

Have a look at this video from CTV ATLANTIC:
http://atlantic.ctv.ca/?video=510572

Fenwick - I'm not sure if any of you watched the whole feed (after the stadium story is done); it goes to the regular news with Steve Murphy, from tonight. But there was a story at the very end about Moncton and their concerts. One of the Councillors was saying that some of the concerts have lost money and that they have invested $6 million into magnetic hill, but only earned back about $600,000. But that's because of how the profits are divided up by the Province and the City; since the Province has invested into these concerts.

What was interesting to me - was the fact they don't have a hotel levy on hotel rooms, where as Halifax does. I wonder if you put through a modest increase in the levy (say 0.5%) - how much money that would raise? If it raised a lot of money, then that could decrease the 'significant' impact that the year deficit would cost in the recreation budget, all 2.92% of it.

[wespidel]

Mayor Kelly is for a 25 thousand permanent seat stadium and not the Sue Uteck Special that has been basicly the Vice Chair`s stadium committee objective from the beginning because he and the head person of Saint Marys and Sue Uteck are pushing to build a 10 thousand permanent seat stadium at Saint Marys and actually these clowns don`t even care about the FIFA bid, all they care about is getting a free stadium built a Saint Marys and this is the problem. It`s not because they won`t pass a 10 thousand seat mickey mouse stadium, it`s that the Mayor and Peter Mackay and the majority of the public and a certain amount of councillors want a bigger and better facility built at a different location and not at Saint Marys and actually the same information I`m giving you was outlined on Global TV last night!

[halifaxboyns]

If Councillor Uteck wants it - then she should help SMU fund raise and get it...like fenwick pointed out, it's likely that SMU/DAL wouldn't use the stadium if it's not on the university site. So why build it for them? Build it for the city...there is nothing wrong with SMU having it's own stadium for the smaller stadium for university related events. If they need bigger, then they can do like other organizations and book (and pay for) the stadium rental.