Winnipeg | Forks Redevelopment | Parcel 4 - Rail Side Initiative | Proposals

[scryer]

Originally Posted by tree

It should go without saying, but of course I meant something like this:

https://goo.gl/maps/TPhhcdnG3Xt

I'm legit concerned now that I have to explain that I mean a urban scale type grocery store occupying the street/lower levels of a larger building and not Maple Leaf Gardens.

I think that more grocers downtown would help, including a large chain as they often have better hours, prices, and selection all in one place. This doesn't refer to having giant parking lots as I vehemently oppose anymore parking lots downtown.

Preach sister. You saved me from typing out a long post.

Unfortunately you had to spell this out to them because people generally don't think outside of the car.

A large chain grocer at urban-scale, is more than appropriate as a commercial tenant to a new condo development in downtown WPG IMO.

[Urban recluse]

Wow, so like downtown Winnipeg is finally catching up to Hamilton. It's about time!

[biguc]

Originally Posted by tree

Huge assumption there that everyone has a car and can just drive out to the suburbs. These places are fine at times but open limited hours with poor selection and higher prices. They can be forgiven for that but I know lots of young professionals and in particular young families who definitely want a larger chain downtown, within reasonable walking distance.

Not assuming anything. Just stating the reality that one single grocery store could not serve all of downtown (because downtown is too geographically large) without being a drive-in business. One other poster here suggested that we have exactly that on Parcel 4, which would effectively serve nobody. And at least one other expressed enthusiasm for a grocery store with lots and lots of free parking, which is something that already exists outside of downtown and in the suburbs, for those of us who drive.

The kinds of smaller, locally oriented grocery stores you're talking about already exist in the neighbourhoods where lots of people already live. But a new store of that type near Portage and Main will be very useful in the near future, serving growing populations in East Sopo and the Exchange. I would also welcome the return of the grocery store at the Bay, to serve West Sopo and Colony.

Edit: I agree that the grocery stores downtown could use better hours. While their prices aren't always great, they tend to be competitive or cheaper than big chains on fresh produce and meat.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by biguc

The kinds of smaller, locally oriented grocery stores you're talking about already exist in the neighbourhoods where lots of people already live.

Good point. And most people living on the outer edges of downtown, where, let's face it, most downtown residents live (Bro-Ass, Central Park) are in close proximity to supermarkets like the Osborne Village and West End Safeways. Even the St. Boniface Safeway and No Frills are really just a stone's throw from the Exchange District.

[Roger Strong]

Originally Posted by esquire

Good point. And most people living on the outer edges of downtown, where, let's face it, most downtown residents live (Bro-Ass, Central Park) are in close proximity to supermarkets like the Osborne Village and West End Safeways. Even the St. Boniface Safeway and No Frills are really just a stone's throw from the Exchange District.

If they have cars.

I want to live downtown again. Without a car. "Within walking distance" is not the same as "Within walking distance with a week's worth of groceries."

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Roger Strong

If they have cars.

I want to live downtown again. Without a car. "Within walking distance" is not the same as "Within walking distance with a week's worth of groceries."

Family Foods on Donald Street. Save On Foods delivery. Walking over to one of the Safeways within walking distance of much of downtown. Taking a bus to one of the supermarkets easily accessible by transit. All options.

Fair enough if you don't want to actually live downtown, but the grocery factor is a pretty weak excuse.

[Tacheguy]

Having a decent grocery option connected to the climate controlled walkway system will be a game changer for the downtown. Doesn't have to be huge.

[biguc]

Originally Posted by esquire

Family Foods on Donald Street. Save On Foods delivery. Walking over to one of the Safeways within walking distance of much of downtown. Taking a bus to one of the supermarkets easily accessible by transit. All options.

Fair enough if you don't want to actually live downtown, but the grocery factor is a pretty weak excuse.

Buying a week's worth of groceries is pretty atypical in an urban lifestyle, anyway.

[Roger Strong]

Originally Posted by esquire

Fair enough if you don't want to actually live downtown, but the grocery factor is a pretty weak excuse.

I'm aware of the small stores. I used them when I lived downtown for a decade.

My point was about the claim that the full-size stores in Osborne Village and St. Boniface are "a stone's throw" away from Central Park and the Exchange District. Not when you have a full-time job, they aren't. Not when you're carrying the week's groceries, they aren't.

Some here really need to drop the "ABSOLUTELY ALL ARGUEMENTS AGAINST DOWNTOWN LIVING ARE INVALID AND ARE JUST WEAK EXCUSES FROM LIARS, COMMIES AND OTTER MOLESTERS!!!" routine. I lived downtown. I plan to live downtown again. I'm quite positive about living downtown. But I'm realistic about the trade-offs.

(And I probably owe that otter an apology.)

[buzzg]

Originally Posted by biguc

Not assuming anything. Just stating the reality that one single grocery store could not serve all of downtown (because downtown is too geographically large) without being a drive-in business. One other poster here suggested that we have exactly that on Parcel 4, which would effectively serve nobody. And at least one other expressed enthusiasm for a grocery store with lots and lots of free parking, which is something that already exists outside of downtown and in the suburbs, for those of us who drive.

The kinds of smaller, locally oriented grocery stores you're talking about already exist in the neighbourhoods where lots of people already live. But a new store of that type near Portage and Main will be very useful in the near future, serving growing populations in East Sopo and the Exchange. I would also welcome the return of the grocery store at the Bay, to serve West Sopo and Colony.

Edit: I agree that the grocery stores downtown could use better hours. While their prices aren't always great, they tend to be competitive or cheaper than big chains on fresh produce and meat.

Speaking of hours, walked through the West Exchange today. Clementine and Subway were just about the only businesses open. It was a ghost town. We need to keep adding (lots of) residents so it can really start becoming a full-time, active, healthy neighbourhood.

Also, I've seen the SaveOnFoods delivery truck in the Exchange almost every day the last few weeks. Really starting to take the idea we don't need anything crazy big. A small grocery at each end of downtown should suffice. Superstore and Walmart are planning on adding delivery eventually, and Amazon may come here as well.

The landscape will shift. Hell, Shoppers in Winnipeg Square might even be adding more groceries as we speak. I think a Shoppers-sized store with a fresh produce/meat section would serve the area very well, don't need a full fledged superstore. The odd time you need to get a BBQ, furniture, TV - you can borrow or rent a car or have it delivered.

[Jets4Life]

Originally Posted by biguc

Buying a week's worth of groceries is pretty atypical in an urban lifestyle, anyway.

What is typical in an urban lifestyle?

[Wolf13]

Originally Posted by biguc

Those of us who live downtown don't want or need a Walmart or Superstore. We can drive to the suburbs when we do need to visit one. We don't want to drive to locations downtown. We want and need smaller retailers spread around downtown so that they're actually close to where people live. Incidentally, the parts of downtown that have large populations already have grocery stores that fit that description: Family Foods near Bro-Ass, Abbey's and Dino's in Central Park.

As tree said, perhaps we're taking Jets too literally when we assume a full scale 50,000+sf superretailer.

Downtown definitely needs appropriately scaled grocers and retailers. I agree, I'd prefer independent stores, but a lot of Winnipeg consumers are ignorant or hesitant to try anything new, so if a mini-walmart or save-on kickstarts some downtown residential and economic migration, then we welcome it.

Originally Posted by Roger Strong

If they have cars.

I want to live downtown again. Without a car. "Within walking distance" is not the same as "Within walking distance with a week's worth of groceries."

Well, we all make adjustments giving the circumstances. So you cab it twice a week for groceries...

Originally Posted by biguc

Buying a week's worth of groceries is pretty atypical in an urban lifestyle, anyway.

That too.

[buzzg]

That's the thing about living in ANY place though - there's pros and cons. Sure on the grocery side downtown Winnipeg is a little heavy on the cons and needs to improve, but there's a lot of pros as well.

Just as with living in the suburbs, you made the choice to live there, require a car, and be stuck in traffic in said car. You can't demand/expect hundreds of millions of dollars be spent to make your commute quicker - you decided to live there, and have to deal with that choice.

[Roger Strong]

Originally Posted by buzzg

Just as with living in the suburbs, you made the choice to live there, require a car, and be stuck in traffic in said car. You can't demand/expect hundreds of millions of dollars be spent to make your commute quicker - you decided to live there, and have to deal with that choice.

Agreed.

I have a different trade-off. I'm on the Portage Express route near Mount Royal, so I don't need a car. I can bus to work from here as quickly as I did from Fort Garry Place. I'm next to a decent-sized Food Fare, so I rarely need to visit a larger grocery store.

The trade-off:

Sweet Jesus tap-dancing Christ it's boring here. I had a 23rd-floor view directly overlooking The Forks. I watched it turn from rail yards to a wonderful park, and watched the whole thing get covered over with buildings and parking. One interesting construction project after another, including the main street and Provencher bridges and even a suspension bridge.

Also the reconstruction of south Main, uncovering the parts of the old Fort Garry under Main Street, and ripping up the old streetcar lines and the Fort Garry Hotel steam conduit.

I watched major fires and a bunch of police chases through the telescope while listening on the scanner. (Alas, the police channels are now encrypted.)

There were lots of places to go and to hang out.

Here on Portage and Mount Royal there's.... nothing. No view whatsoever beyond parked cars, and dumpsters. No-where to go. And thanks to the airport noise bylaws, no construction of anything interesting allowed.

It's all trade-offs.

[Wolf13]

Originally Posted by buzzg

That's the thing about living in ANY place though - there's pros and cons. Sure on the grocery side downtown Winnipeg is a little heavy on the cons and needs to improve, but there's a lot of pros as well.

Just as with living in the suburbs, you made the choice to live there, require a car, and be stuck in traffic in said car. You can't demand/expect hundreds of millions of dollars be spent to make your commute quicker - you decided to live there, and have to deal with that choice.

you can, however, demand an absence of complete ignorance. When the fixes are quick, simple and relatively cost effective, it's gotta be done.

I can very much expect tax dollars to be spent in my favour... some of them are mine. Just as you can expect a lot from a more urban perspective. Provided we're all reasonable.

Not to sound too predictable, but I definitely can and will expect better roads. For example, I'm a car guy, so i don't need my depreciating asset to have it's depreciation accelerated, just because we're the one city in the first world that can't pave a road.

[buzzg]

That's fair Wolf, but as someone famous probably once said, you can't have it all (lol).

I, along with some others for sure, am someone who can put up with not-the-best-roads (yes, some are horrible), for the amount we invest in arts and culture here.

I will say though tat we have a significantly bloated government and emergency services force that eat up so much of our tax money unnecessarily. It boggles my mind that we still have so many school divisions here. That'd be the first thing I'd tackle if I was a city politician - what a waste of money having SO many dupicating and overlapping jobs.

[wags_in_the_peg]

Originally Posted by buzzg

That's fair Wolf, but as someone famous probably once said, you can't have it all (lol).

I, along with some others for sure, am someone who can put up with not-the-best-roads (yes, some are horrible), for the amount we invest in arts and culture here.

I will say though tat we have a significantly bloated government and emergency services force that eat up so much of our tax money unnecessarily. It boggles my mind that we still have so many school divisions here. That'd be the first thing I'd tackle if I was a city politician - what a waste of money having SO many dupicating and overlapping jobs.

agree with you, but remember;
emergency service = city politics
school divisions = provincial politics

[Wolf13]

Originally Posted by buzzg

That's fair Wolf, but as someone famous probably once said, you can't have it all (lol).

I, along with some others for sure, am someone who can put up with not-the-best-roads (yes, some are horrible), for the amount we invest in arts and culture here.

I will say though tat we have a significantly bloated government and emergency services force that eat up so much of our tax money unnecessarily. It boggles my mind that we still have so many school divisions here. That'd be the first thing I'd tackle if I was a city politician - what a waste of money having SO many dupicating and overlapping jobs.

Lol, you're not wrong... and I personally think the arts add colour to a city's culture, but I don't find it unreasonable that they can be atleast partially self-sustaining.

And you're right about school divisions. Heavens to Betsy that inefficiency annoys me.

[drew]

Originally Posted by wags_in_the_peg

agree with you, but remember;
emergency service = city politics
school divisions = provincial politics

Manitoba needs at most 3 school divisions:

1 for Winnipeg
1 or 2 for the areas outside Winnipeg (required mostly for the geography involved, not the actual population of students).

[Wolf13]

Originally Posted by drew

Manitoba needs at most 3 school divisions:

1 for Winnipeg
1 or 2 for the areas outside Winnipeg (required mostly for the geography involved, not the actual population of students).

Hey, you put that sound logic away, nobody wants to see that!