We can learn from history Rail-based transit will work in the Fraser Valley

[paradigm4]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

But the system should and probably will be designed so that the rapid bus corridors will be turned into LRTs. the reason i feel we should do heavy rail is that heavy rail can run on existing tracks through out the lower mainland and that it can carry many more people in fewer trains and has a more obvious schedule, essentially another west coast express. Then the line could be extended further east all the way to hope and beyond, you could actually extend it one day all the way to the Okanagan to make it a larger southern BC regional rail network, not just a local commuter network. Just pipe dreams now i guess. Also heavy rail trains I feel attract many more riders in less dense areas, again the west coast express is the perfect example. I use to live in Maple ridge and after its first three stops in the morning (mission, port haney and maple meadows) the train is packed normally. Now a ROW LRT that does not ride down the meridians of busy streets might also work, but it would have to have exceptionally long LRT trains with very few stations and high operating speeds on a fixed schedule (example every half hour) People here seem to think very small and do not realize how to market towards people in outer lying cities, in fact Abbotsford is considered a separate Metro district than the GVRD, so this in a way would be a metro to metro line, therefore for the possibilities of extending the trains to other metro areas (chilliwak, Kelowna, Squamish, Kamloops, etc...) heavy rail is best.

I would agree that heavy rail is the way to connect with Abbotsford, Chilliwack, Surrey, and Vancouver.

I think there's a bit of confusion when people say "The Valley". To some in Vancouver, this could refer to Surrey or Langley. To those of us further east, "The Valley" means Maple Ridge and beyond.

To be sure, Surrey is a completely different story than Abbotsford.

[twoNeurons]

Technically, the Fraser Valley starts East of Aldergrove, including Abbotsford, Chilliwack, Hope and Mission.

Surrey Langley, and Maple Ridge are part of Metro Vancouver.

Combined, they form the Lower Mainland.

[paradigm4]

Originally Posted by tintinium

Technically, the Fraser Valley starts East of Aldergrove, including Abbotsford, Chilliwack, Hope and Mission.

Surrey Langley, and Maple Ridge are part of Metro Vancouver.

Combined, they form the Lower Mainland.

No, I know that, and thanks for clarifying, but my point was a lot of people, whether on this forum, or out in the real world debating this same issue, don't have this same definition for "the valley"

[fever]

The line in my mind is a land use boundary instead of a municipal, regional district or CMA boundary. The Fraser valley refers to the more agricultural parts of the lower mainland in my mind. This thread is about what type of rail, if any, is the best fit in a pattern of populated hills and agricultural valleys.

The definitions of light and heavy rail are also open to interpretation. In my mind, Calgary has light rail, while Portland has light rail and a streetcar. Ottawa has regional rail and bus rapid transit. Toronto's subway is heavy rail, and GO is commuter rail that would become regional rail with regular, low-frequency, bidirectional service.

[DKaz]

Canada Line, Toronto Subway, New York subways, Tokyo's subways, etc. all use heavy rail vehicles!

I say we get a starter high speed commuter rail down the middle of the Transcanada Highway linking Chilliwack, Abbotsford, Langley, that little bit of Surrey, connection at Braid Station, with future provisions to extend it even further to downtown Vancouver as funds become available. Start it out with half hour rush hour schedules and hourly schedule all other times, no need to electrify. Acquire Ottawa's DMUs when they're ready to sell, build basic stations, and provide basic rail traffic controls and single rail with designated passing areas at stations and predetermined locations and provisions to double track in the future and away we go. The wiggly light interurban would also be up and running to provide local service and provide connections to the high speed line. What is it, four colleges/universities linked by the interurban? The line is going to be well used!

[Metro-One]

I still think heavy rail is the best choice for connecting the Valley cities to Vancouver - High speed rail i would love to see though.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by DKaz

Canada Line, Toronto Subway, New York subways, Tokyo's subways, etc. all use heavy rail vehicles!

I don't think you can call the Canada line vehicles heavy rail by most people's definition.

[Metro-One]

Actually to me canada line vehicles look no lighter than subway cars in Tokyo or Toronto, just newer

[DKaz]

Originally Posted by tintinium

I don't think you can call the Canada line vehicles heavy rail by most people's definition.

The cars themselves are heavy rail but with two car trainsets, the capacity certainly is not for the time being (if ever).

[SpongeG]

maybe if vancouver had a population in the 4-5 million range it would make sense but we don't and are a few decades away from that

as it is people in abbotsford/chilliwack go to mission to catch the commuter rail

if we add another one south of the fraser there goes a large chunk of riders from the wce

it just not needed yet with the numbers out there

[lightrail]

Originally Posted by paradigm4

One point though is that light rail is almost always electric while heavy rail is almost always diesel based.

Noooo. That's not true. There are many many examples of heavy rail electric trains - local and express. France's TGV is electric; eurostar is electric; most of London's and Paris and any other European city's suburban trains are electric heavy rail; most metros are heavy rail (and electric).

Montreal has electric heavy rail commuter trains, and I could go on.

Light rail can be diesel too (or more correctly diesel-electric - which, by the way, most diesel trains are actually electric trains with their own on-board generators driven by the diesel engines).

[DKaz]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

maybe if vancouver had a population in the 4-5 million range it would make sense but we don't and are a few decades away from that. as it is people in abbotsford/chilliwack go to mission to catch the commuter rail. if we add another one south of the fraser there goes a large chunk of riders from the wce. it just not needed yet with the numbers out there

Adding a South of Fraser commuter rail line would likely take away half the passengers boarding from Mission station, but Mission Station really isn't that busy to begin with. I would say that less than 10% of the seats get taken at Mission. Most of the passengers come from all the other stations and by Port Moody it's standing room only.

Diverting Abbotsford and Chilliwack passengers to South of Fraser would mean that Port Moody passengers can actually find a seat and trains would run at exactly 100% seating capacity to Waterfront (not accounting for future growth).

Meanwhile South of Fraser would get exactly what they need, their own high speed commuter line and we'd probably triple the number of Abbotsford/Chilliwack residents using transit.

[SpongeG]

if the numbers are already so low that just goes to show that chilliwack and abbotsford people don't work downtown

[officedweller]

The "light" and the "heavy" in light rail and heavy rail refer to passenger capacity - not technology.

The Canada Line is a bit of a hybrid in that sense, because the physical dimensions of the cars are similar to heavy rail systems (like TTC subway cars) but the overall system capacity is more like light rail or intermediate capacity rail due to the two-car trainsets.

[Metro-One]

if the numbers are already so low that just goes to show that chilliwack and abbotsford people don't work downtown

Actually i think they don't take the WCE because it is a little inconvenient to do so, because to drive from Abbotsford to Mission is about a 15 to 30 minute drive in the wrong direction, and then you have to park and transfer onto the train. So it is easier at the moment just to take the direct route (the freeway) to the city. If there were a station house in Abbotford i am sure many more people would take the train. hence why i believe a commuter train into the Valley would work.

[DKaz]

Hence why I think a train from Abby/Chilliwack would triple the ridership for the Abby residents working in Vancouver and also get those working in Burnaby/Coquitlam/Surrey onto transit. I doubt that the high speed line will come anytime soon, I'd like them to get the Interurban back first.

I think the Golden Ears bridge will definitely bring in riders from Langley/Walnut Grove.

[SpongeG]

i think the interurban would be more valuable right now - when the population grows perhaps something heavier could work

either way downtown vancouver shouldn't be seen as "the" end point anymore

vancouver's economy is service based and spread out

[Metro-One]

I'm a little fuzzy on the inter-urban idea, is that a right of way light rail system? Similar to the C-train in Calgary?

[fever]

Yes. It could be like the c-train. It could have fewer stops and be more of a regional line as well.

[Distill3d]

Originally Posted by tintinium

Technically, the Fraser Valley starts East of Aldergrove, including Abbotsford, Chilliwack, Hope and Mission..

well, save for Hope, i'm convinced that before we start building anything like this, we should get these other cities part of Metro Vancouver first. there's a push to get Abbotsford, but not Mission or Chilliwack.

i understand the purpose behind having an inter-urban line, but lets get them part of us first.