PITTSBURGH | Development Rundown II

[Austinlee]

^ I would agree with that. You've got two amazing old powerhouse cities that still have many fortune 500 companies and a legacy of wealth, higher education and economics. Given the proximity I would be suprised if these two areas don't become even more symbiotic over time.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Private Dick

The author is actually the same guy who has been pushing the "Cleveburgh" region -- specifically referring to the very strong regional business ties between the two cities.

Yes, but that doesn't mean he is right to do so. I think the "Cleveburgh" notion reflects an outdated sense of what sorts of economic and business ties are going to matter most to Pittsburgh going forward. Again, I don't think it is wrong to seek ways to facilitate more interchange with Cleveland, but that goal shouldn't be prioritized over facilitating interchange with the much larger East Coast cities with established and growing ties with Pittsburgh. In that sense, "Cleveburgh" implies an ill-conceived prioritization, because all of "Washburgh", "Philaburgh", and "Yorkburgh" are all going to be equally or more important going forward.

Migration numbers/trends aren't really what we're looking at here

Why not? We're interested in factors that might increase demand for intercity travel. Migrants tend to retain ties to their place of origin and are more likely to travel back and forth from that place. In fact, I grew up in the Detroit area, and I have certainly traveled back and forth to Detroit more than the average Pittsburgher, and certain people from Detroit have traveled here to see me more than the average Detroiter. And note that it works both ways--NY, Philly, and DC are the three largest sources of in-migration AND the three largest destinations for out-migration (although not in the same order).

Further, migration churn also leads to further economic ties--Jim Russell's Burgh Diaspora blog has been making that case for years, and in that sense migration churn is actually a pretty good proxy for which city pairs are likely to be experiencing increasing economic ties.

Pittsburgh's case is nothing really abnormal from any other eastern city.

Exactly right, and all the eastern cities have prioritized upgraded train connections to the other biggest eastern cities. That's why ACELA exists and is the most advanced passenger train system in the United States, and that is why it is perfectly normal for Pittsburgh's most important passenger train goals to be developing as good or better train service to DC, Philly, and NY as ACELA.

What would be "abnormal" is for an eastern city to make upgraded service to Cleveland its most important passenger train goal. Of course due to proximity, Cleveland is a bit more important to Pittsburgh than most other eastern cities, but overall, as with every other normal eastern city, collectively NY, Philly, and DC outweigh Cleveland notwithstanding that proximity.

This is true, but I also think that Cleveland may still be PNC's largest market by revenue, and it is Ohio's largest bank.

I don't think it is larger than NY, Philly, and DC combined. I also think you have to be careful with market shares--because markets like NY, Philly, and DC are so big, having a smaller share of those markets can still end up being more activity than larger market shares elsewhere.

I would agree due to the increases in financial, but the majority of it is likely due to the natural gas industry. The number of engineers, scientists, "consultants", IT professionals, and lawyers the boom has brought to the Pittsburgh region in the last few years is amazing.

This is definitely NOT true. The increase in these job fields began years before the natural gas boom. See here, resetting the start date to 1990:

http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/SMU42...a_tool=XGtable

I agree in general, but I don't think it is realistic to get a high speed rail line from Pittsburgh to NYC at this time.

A high speed line to Harrisburg would also be a high speed line to NYC.

But the idea of focusing on making an already strong regional connection with Cleveland even stronger via a rail system serves to strengthen the regional economy as a power in itself, and therefore making a connection from the East Coast power centers that much more attractive.

That logic works both ways: a proper link between Pittsburgh and Philly and/or DC would make it much more attractive for a Great Lakes network to link to Pittsburgh.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Austinlee

You've got two amazing old powerhouse cities that still have many fortune 500 companies and a legacy of wealth, higher education and economics. Given the proximity I would be suprised if these two areas don't become even more symbiotic over time.

I agree connections with Cleveland will increase, and we should be fostering those connections. But I disagree that proximity makes Cleveland a higher priority than NY, Philly, and DC combined.

Perhaps a reminder of the actual scale we are talking about is worth providing. The Cleveland MSA has about 2.1 million people. DC is about 5.7 million, Philly about 6.0 million, and NY 19.0 million. Even accounting for Cleveland's proximity, that is about 15 times more people collectively, which is bound to make connections to those cities combined more important.

In fact, the migration churn numbers really show that. Collectively NY, Philly, and DC have something like 6 times as much migration churn with Pittsburgh as Cleveland. Per capita, that means churn with Cleveland is very high, so there is a detectable proximity effect. But Cleveland is still just too small in comparison for that per capita/proximity advantage to make up for the massive 15 times difference in scale.

Of course you can do the same analysis with economic size. The Cleveland MSA has a GDP of about $106 billion. Philly is $347B, DC $425B, NY $1281B. That's about 19 times more collectively. Again, that means even a much smaller market share in those markets can add up to a lot more business.

Fortunately for Pittsburgh, it is in fact within range for high speed rail to matter to all of these East Coast cities. And because of their sheer scale, they matter more for Pittsburgh than Cleveland, notwithstanding Cleveland's relative proximity. But to be perfectly clear, we shouldn't blow off Cleveland--there is no reason not to be working in both directions.

[themaguffin]

Total migration churn was highest with NY, Philly, and DC. Cleveland was actually pretty far down the list at #8, with about half as much churn as those top 3, although Youngstown was #4.

I think Youngstown appears often - my guess is churn specifically with Beaver County.

I agree connections with Cleveland will increase, and we should be fostering those connections. But I disagree that proximity makes Cleveland a higher priority than NY, Philly, and DC combined.

I completely agree. This topic has come up before. I see little real benefit to this as opposed to leveraging Pittsburgh's asset's on its bigger eastern neighbors.

While I do think that Cleveland's MSA is really significantly understated as it leaves off Akron and even Canton, there is a lot more to be gained from the East Coast for the reasons you stated.

[Private Dick]

This topic can obviously bring up some good info and conversation. And I can definitely see the case made for both directions. I certainly see the value (and likely the more important future value) for Pittsburgh's connections with eastern cities, and I can agree that that SHOULD be top priority in terms of high-speed rail connection. It definitely is what I would prefer.

My main thing is that the chances of actually getting that done in the forseeable future seem slim, and bolstering tight regional ties along the Cleveland-Pittsburgh corridor via a high speed rail system can serve to create a very strong and influential economic market nationally... with much more clout in the future, providing greater incentive to connect with a high speed line from the east. It just seems like a more realistic way to go about it, based on what has been written and presented on in the recent past.

Anyway, for those interested... I've attended some of these events in the past as part of a previous consulting gig and found them to be very informative on the topic of collaboration in the Pittsburgh-Cleveland region.

The upcoming one is in Cleveland, but it will be held again at CMU in April.

CMU and Case Western NEO - Trustbelt Symposium 2013
Date: 2/20/2013
Time: 6:00 PM
Location: Case Western Reserve University
Thwing Ballroom
10900 Euclid Avenue
Cleveland, OH 44106

http://alumni.cmu.edu/s/1410/alumni/...=13&calcid=664

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by themaguffin

I think Youngstown appears often - my guess is churn specifically with Beaver County . . . . While I do think that Cleveland's MSA is really significantly understated as it leaves off Akron and even Canton, there is a lot more to be gained from the East Coast for the reasons you stated.

I'm actually more than willing to argue for both sides. The NEC is an obvious top prize for any city within range for economically competitive high speed rail service. But connecting to a hypothetical Great Lakes network centered on Chicago would be an important secondary prize, particularly since with sufficiently fast service both ways it would place Pittsburgh right between those two systems.

And even just moderately upgraded and more regular service between Pittsburgh and Cleveland with an intermediate stop in Youngstown (of the sort pitched by Strickland and Rendell) would be quite useful, and good bang for the buck.

So on the one hand, I think we can be realistic about how different possible goals are ranked. But on the other, there is no reason not to pursue action on any worthwhile goal as long as it meets a reasonable threshold in cost/benefit terms (including the potential benefits of starting along certain upgrade paths).

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Private Dick

My main thing is that the chances of actually getting that done in the forseeable future seem slim

As far as getting something actually done is concerned, two things will need to align:

(1) There will need to be sufficient federal dollars allocated to passenger rail upgrades such that these projects can potentially get funding; and

(2) The relevant state governments must be willing to apply for and then accept that federal funding, which will likely include significant state expenditures on an ongoing basis.

Right now neither of these conditions are met for either project. The first condition is common to both, so is more or less a wash. It is really the second condition that gets interesting.

One obvious point is that the eastern route only requires one state government to be on board (PA), while the western route requires two (PA and OH), so one could argue that the former is necessarily more likely than the latter.

However, prior PA governments have shown a tendency to favor passenger rail upgrades in the eastern half of the state over the western half, but Pittsburgh to Cleveland was a bit of an exception, in part just because Ohio would likely be picking up a majority of the state funding component, and generally at least the first stages of the project would be relatively inexpensive.

So it is possible that a combination of an Ohio government and a PA government willing to support the western route is as likely, or even more likely, to reemerge than a PA government willing to support the eastern route on its own.

But that's all speculative. My main point is just that from a Pittsburgh perspective, we should be prepared to support either or both of these projects, because it is hard to tell at this point which is most likely to start advancing first.

[markson33]

I like the idea of Cleveburgh - and think it should be worked toward.

That being said, I think Brian is right. To me the most important connection we as a city could make would be to DC. I already know a few people who work in DC and live(ed) in Pittsburgh. The cost of living/quality of life issues in DC make Pittsburgh (and Martinsburg/Cumberland even moreso) a great satellite location.

I realize it is a pipe dream, but I would love to see a HSR system from Pittsburgh/Cumberland/Martinsburg/DC. That would rock.

[Private Dick]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

As far as getting something actually done is concerned, two things will need to align:

(1) There will need to be sufficient federal dollars allocated to passenger rail upgrades such that these projects can potentially get funding; and

(2) The relevant state governments must be willing to apply for and then accept that federal funding, which will likely include significant state expenditures on an ongoing basis.

Right now neither of these conditions are met for either project. The first condition is common to both, so is more or less a wash. It is really the second condition that gets interesting.

One obvious point is that the eastern route only requires one state government to be on board (PA), while the western route requires two (PA and OH), so one could argue that the former is necessarily more likely than the latter.

However, prior PA governments have shown a tendency to favor passenger rail upgrades in the eastern half of the state over the western half, but Pittsburgh to Cleveland was a bit of an exception, in part just because Ohio would likely be picking up a majority of the state funding component, and generally at least the first stages of the project would be relatively inexpensive.

So it is possible that a combination of an Ohio government and a PA government willing to support the western route is as likely, or even more likely, to reemerge than a PA government willing to support the eastern route on its own.

But that's all speculative. My main point is just that from a Pittsburgh perspective, we should be prepared to support either or both of these projects, because it is hard to tell at this point which is most likely to start advancing first.

Overall... agreed. I never really looked at this as some definite either-or case. A high-speed rail connection to the East Coast would be top priority for just about any city in the interior northeastern/mid-Atlantic US. I just have my doubts about how fruitful of an effort by Pittsburgh that could turn out to be... even though greater alignment overall with the eastern cities may be the future for Pittsburgh.

Considering the current situation (with the strong regional ties between Pittsburgh and Cleveland being inarguable -- I listed just some of the obvious economic/commerce connections on the previous page) and the ongoing work being done to strengthen the economic ties of the region, including past high-speed rail efforts between the cities, the Cleveland-Pittsburgh line just seems a more realistic proposition currently. Particularly when there are established initiatives composed of highly-influential regional players like the Techbelt already garnering significant federal funding for cooperative regional economic development, and since there have been previous political efforts for connecting the 2 cities via high-speed rail.

Unfortunately, Ohio has almost been alone in that effort to get federal funding, with Pittsburgh (and all of PA, really) coming very late to the table, and with PA seemingly uninterested in anything beyond the Philly-Harrisburg connection (no surprise there though). PA has just never organized to the level other states have in pursuing high-speed rail, and will find itself at a very big disadvantage when it comes to getting any federal funding if it is to happen.

I think you make good points in your last two paragraphs above, though we have already seen Ohio put major support behind the Cleveland-Pittsburgh link, prompting Pittsburgh to actually take an interest in any of it. This has been going on for about 3 years now. So it's not completely speculative as to which will will start advancing first, since there have been significant resources spent on the Cleveland-Pittsburgh line already... again, overwhelmingly by Ohio. I of course think that Pittsburgh should support either or both lines... I just look at what has and has not been done and said, and find it hard to come to the conclusion that an HSR line to Harrisburg has any realistic chance of seeing the light of day... hence, my focus on the Cleveland-Pittsburgh line.

Originally Posted by markson33

I like the idea of Cleveburgh - and think it should be worked toward.

That being said, I think Brian is right. To me the most important connection we as a city could make would be to DC. I already know a few people who work in DC and live(ed) in Pittsburgh. The cost of living/quality of life issues in DC make Pittsburgh (and Martinsburg/Cumberland even moreso) a great satellite location.

I realize it is a pipe dream, but I would love to see a HSR system from Pittsburgh/Cumberland/Martinsburg/DC. That would rock.

As above, I don't think it's ultimately a case of one or the other. Just a matter of what is realistic to focus on now and in the near future. Making the lines to Harrisburg and DC high-speed is ideal for Pittsburgh... and what we all really want... but all indicators (especially in the case of an HSR line to Harrisburg) seem to suggest that it's not going to happen.

[Austinlee]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

I agree connections with Cleveland will increase, and we should be fostering those connections. But I disagree that proximity makes Cleveland a higher priority than NY, Philly, and DC combined.

Perhaps a reminder of the actual scale we are talking about is worth providing. The Cleveland MSA has about 2.1 million people. DC is about 5.7 million, Philly about 6.0 million, and NY 19.0 million. Even accounting for Cleveland's proximity, that is about 15 times more people collectively, which is bound to make connections to those cities combined more important.

In fact, the migration churn numbers really show that. Collectively NY, Philly, and DC have something like 6 times as much migration churn with Pittsburgh as Cleveland. Per capita, that means churn with Cleveland is very high, so there is a detectable proximity effect. But Cleveland is still just too small in comparison for that per capita/proximity advantage to make up for the massive 15 times difference in scale.

Of course you can do the same analysis with economic size. The Cleveland MSA has a GDP of about $106 billion. Philly is $347B, DC $425B, NY $1281B. That's about 19 times more collectively. Again, that means even a much smaller market share in those markets can add up to a lot more business.

Fortunately for Pittsburgh, it is in fact within range for high speed rail to matter to all of these East Coast cities. And because of their sheer scale, they matter more for Pittsburgh than Cleveland, notwithstanding Cleveland's relative proximity. But to be perfectly clear, we shouldn't blow off Cleveland--there is no reason not to be working in both directions.

Well comparing metro GDP's isn't really constructive. Of course the Bos-Wash corridor is the most important in total dollars for Pittsburgh commerce and I think like you said, DC, NY and Philly are currently the largest migration routes for moving Pittsburgh. (Also high up were LA, Chicago, North Carolina and parts of Florida (retirement mostly, I would think).

However on a regional basis, Cleveland and Pittsburgh are really complimenting each other. Companies off the top of my mind currently expanding are Howard Hanna (my brokerage) all through Cleveland and eastern Ohio. (I think HH now has something like 45% market share for Cleveland metro home sales, a share higher than even its hometown of the Pittsburgh metro). Also, HH has just expanded with its first offices in Philly and Columbus, two wealthy metros. HH is also now in Western NY, Harrisburg, Northern WV and Ann Arbor, MI.
Pittsburgh's dominant grocer, Giant Eagle is expanding throughout the Cleveland metro as well as Altoona's Sheetz higher end gas stations/rest stops format. Pittsburgh's PNC bank was there to purchase National City during the finance crisis which i'm sure Cleveland hates but at least many jobs were saved rather than moved out of state or dissolved if the company went completely under.
Cleveland's Eaton Corp has made a major expansion in the Pittsburgh's area recently. They are a great company. Cleveland's federal reserve bank handles the region including Pittsburgh, the two powerhouses of that federal district.
Esmark, a company located in Sewickley handles the Medical Rescue helicoptors contract for the Cleveland Clinic. And of course, although most all of our steel mills are closed there are still many, many specialty metals and fabrication businesses that do brisk business along the Pitt-Cleve corridor.

(If anyone else knows of any other good examples I missed, I would love to hear about them too)

In my opinion, these two industrial giants are not going anywhere and if we want our two cities to be as competitive and prosperous as possible we should continue to encourage as much cross-commerce as possible.

Also, if the medical mart/convention center plan in downtown Cleve is successful I can't help but think that Cleveland's world famous clinic and hospital system will mesh nicely with the juggernauts of medicine in Pgh: UPMC & West Penn.

[Private Dick]

^ Quoting oneself may be gauche... but hey... I guess great minds think alike

Originally Posted by Private Dick

Not sure about this. It's hard to say these days that Pittsburgh's primary markets for population and economic interchange are on the East Coast (certainly not from a passenger rail perspective). I can't see how that is possible, but I'd certainly be interested in hearing about it. Geographic proximity is obviously prime for commercial linkage... and the Cleveland/NE Ohio area seems to fit the bill far better than East Coast cities -- Philly or otherwise.

All we have to do is look at commercial connections... Cleveland is still one of PNC's largest markets, PPG's Cleveland-area coatings plant (now plants) is one of the company's largest in its largest business segment, Alcoa's Cleveland works has long been one of the company's major plants, Cleveland accounts for over half of Howard Hanna's business, US Steel just did a major expansion of its Lorain plant, the Cleveland area has more Giant Eagles than Pittsburgh area, Dollar Bank's operations are basically split half and half between Cleveland and Pittsburgh, Pitt Ohio Express... another one which basically is a dual-city company. And it goes the other way too, with Pittsburgh one of Forest City's largest markets, Pittsburgh's Fed branch being part of the Federal Reserve Bank of Cleveland, Pittsburgh being one of Cleveland-based Eaton Corporation's major centers -- accounting for a quarter of the global conglomerate's revenues and nearly 2000 employees, and I'm sure there's a number more I could list, but I'm more familiar with Pittsburgh's presence in NE Ohio than the other way around.

These types of connections don't exist between Pittsburgh and the East Coast like they do with it's closer neighbor. And this is to say nothing of the less obvious collaborations between such players as CMU, Cleveland Clinic, Case Western, Allegheny Conference, various foundations, Pgh Life Science Greenhouse, and many others in the "TechBelt" initiative, which was specifically founded because of the many commonalities and proximity.



And I don't look at it as Pittsburgh serving as some sort of terminus to a midwestern rail network. I primarily see the connection, and the potential for much greater connection, within and beyond the greater Pittsburgh-Cleveland region, resulting in part from developments fostered within. When you look at the region... with over 7 million people, 4th largest in industrial technology, 6th largest in academic R&D, top 10 in GDP, and with a particular timely focus in the life sciences and energy technologies... why shouldn't there be much greater connection -- especially since it is only around 130 miles in distance?

[Austinlee]

^Holy shit Private Dick; I somehow missed that post on the previous page and I am AMAZED by how similar our long posts are written and the examples used. That is freaky.
Cheers, on the "Great minds....." comment. I guess so!

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Private Dick

I think you make good points in your last two paragraphs above, though we have already seen Ohio put major support behind the Cleveland-Pittsburgh link

That's true, but keep in mind that was happening under Strickland. And the feds actually offered them $400 million for the first phase of 3C, and Kasich turned them down.

So it really depends on Ohio politics, and unfortunately, this whole episode shows that a long-standing effort can be derailed (no pun intended) at any step in the process if even just once the wrong sort of people get elected.

Conversely, things could change for the better in PA. In fact, at some point I think Western PA is going to wake up and realize it has the political leverage and economic prospects to demand better treatment from the state (unfortunately a lot of people in Allegheny County wrongly thought Corbett would be that sort of guy--hopefully that is a mistake we learn from and don't repeat).

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Austinlee

Of course the Bos-Wash corridor is the most important in total dollars for Pittsburgh commerce and I think like you said, DC, NY and Philly are currently the largest migration routes for moving Pittsburgh. . . . However on a regional basis, Cleveland and Pittsburgh are really complimenting each other.

Right. Like I said previously, it is not that the prospect of improving transportation links to Cleveland should be blown off, but that is consistent with recognizing the East Coast cities are fundamentally an even bigger prize, particularly as the Pittsburgh economy is evolving.

[BrianTH]

So PPS's marketing agent is recommending they take PMC's offer for Schenley (which is not a surprise given their criteria):

http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/...illion-673613/

[Jonboy1983]

Private Dick, thanks for providing all of that information to back why Pitt-Cleveland should be pursued. You articulated all of that better than I ever could have. And I have to agree with the statement that it's really not an either-or scenario here. PIT-Cleveland is just more realistic.

For kicks, I am mapping out a HSR alignment using Google Earth. I'm having parts of the existing PRR line in tact (with some upgrades, of course), but there are places where I think a whole new alignment is necessary, particularly between Johnstown and Harrisburg. I have a new alignment looping down through Bedford, paralleling the PA Turnpike for a little bit, and using the abandoned PA Turnpike through the Sideling Hill Tunnel. I have the remaining part of the segment following the ridges and valleys all the way to the Susquehanna River, just south of the Rockville Bridge. It would still be pricey, but probably not quite as pricey. For the record, I have only one new tunnel bored here, just east of Johnstown. The other tunnel is already existing as the abandoned Sideling Hill Tunnel. Of course, that's up to the PTC. Don't they still own that...?

Unfortunately, that would mean Altoona, Tyrone, Huntingdon, and Lewistown all get bypassed... Considering I'd be including a stop at a new Bedford station, the city and County of Bedford would be all over this... The segment from Bedford to the Susquehanns is roughly 80 or 90 miles, and I figure trains doing a top speed between 125 and 150, so that would mean that you could travel from Bedford to the State Capitol in roughly 35 to 45 minutes...

What is the current trip to Harrisburg from Johnstown? The new alignment is about 130 miles, and I think this could be tweaked further to be straighter and shorter. At 150 mph, that would mean you could get to Harrisburg in less than an hour, with that stop in Bedford, of course.



For the record, I actually went to Amtrak.com. The trip from Johnstown to Harrisburg is almost FOUR HOURS LONG! Imagine getting there in ONE hour!!

[Private Dick]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

That's true, but keep in mind that was happening under Strickland. And the feds actually offered them $400 million for the first phase of 3C, and Kasich turned them down.

So it really depends on Ohio politics, and unfortunately, this whole episode shows that a long-standing effort can be derailed (no pun intended) at any step in the process if even just once the wrong sort of people get elected.

Conversely, things could change for the better in PA. In fact, at some point I think Western PA is going to wake up and realize it has the political leverage and economic prospects to demand better treatment from the state (unfortunately a lot of people in Allegheny County wrongly thought Corbett would be that sort of guy--hopefully that is a mistake we learn from and don't repeat).

True... Kasich and Corbett being elected certainly was a big step backwards. Although, when Kasich turned the down the federal funding for the 3C, the Ohio group composed of politicians and businesspeople regrouped to focus on the Cleveland-Akron-Youngstown-Pittsburgh line, as vital to the region's future.

And they found willing allies in the TechBelt group who "identified transportation as a key component of the collaborative to improve mobility of the labor force, increase access to markets and provide low-cost supply of materials to and distribution for advanced manufacturing”. They generally feel, like Austin said above, that regional collaboration is necessary if either city is to be as competitive and prosperous as possible. They certainly have some horsepower to get stuff done when you look at the members:

http://www.techbelt.org/about/committees


However, like you say, efforts can be derailed by the wrong politicians. Like PA Rep. Bill Shuster of the 9th district, who just became chair of the House Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure late last year... and has specifically stated that funding for rail between Harrisburg to Pittsburgh is not an investment priority and that high-speed rail should be limited to the Northeast Corridor. So, with friends like him (who's district includes the vast majority of the Harrisburg-Pittsburgh line) and PennDOT who says that HSR connecting Pittsburgh to Harrisburg is "highly unlikely", who needs enemies?

[Jonboy1983]

Originally Posted by Private Dick

True... Kasich and Corbett being elected certainly was a big step backwards. Although, when Kasich turned the down the federal funding for the 3C, the Ohio group composed of politicians and businesspeople regrouped to focus on the Cleveland-Akron-Youngstown-Pittsburgh line, as vital to the region's future.

And they found willing allies in the TechBelt group who "identified transportation as a key component of the collaborative to improve mobility of the labor force, increase access to markets and provide low-cost supply of materials to and distribution for advanced manufacturing”. They generally feel, like Austin said above, that regional collaboration is necessary if either city is to be as competitive and prosperous as possible. They certainly have some horsepower to get stuff done when you look at the members:

http://www.techbelt.org/about/committees


However, like you say, efforts can be derailed by the wrong politicians. Like PA Rep. Bill Shuster of the 9th district, who just became chair of the House Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure late last year... and has specifically stated that funding for rail between Harrisburg to Pittsburgh is not an investment priority and that high-speed rail should be limited to the Northeast Corridor. So, with friends like him (who's district includes the vast majority of the Harrisburg-Pittsburgh line) and PennDOT who says that HSR connecting Pittsburgh to Harrisburg is "highly unlikely", who needs enemies?

That is quite a list of big-name players in the Greater Cleveland and Pittsburgh regions. In that second paragraph, I'm sure you mean "fiends," and not friends, right?

By the way, I did tweak my new alignment. It's still the same length, just a little straighter to allow for higher speeds. And, I have this thing hitting a top speed of 150, so i'm figuring an average speed of 100 to 120. Still, that's just over an hour to travel from Johnstown to Harrisburg. That versus 3 hours 50 minutes or the 2.5 hour drive, I say is very competitive.

Again, that's if they really wanted to make a push for HSR from Pittsburgh to Harrisburg. That's what I would suggest. I still suggest pushing for a Pittsburgh-Cleveland collaboration. It's more realistic for all reasons stated above.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Private Dick

Although, when Kasich turned the down the federal funding for the 3C, the Ohio group composed of politicians and businesspeople regrouped to focus on the Cleveland-Akron-Youngstown-Pittsburgh line, as vital to the region's future.

Also a good point. There is definitely a strong underlying constituency for this project in Ohio, and I personally think that sooner or later, the sort of political dynamic that put Kasich in the way will have run its course, and we'll get back to working on these things.

[Private Dick]

This would be awesome

ZipPitt plans to run zip line from Mount Washington to North Shore

http://www.popcitymedia.com/devnews/...=Ones+to+watch

Adam Young is one step closer to flying from Mount Washington to the North Shore. The Carnegie resident is proposing a zip line that would sail from near the Duquesne Incline to the Carnegie Science Center.

ZipPitt, as the project is called, was awarded a $1,000 Awesome Pittsburgh grant last week. The organization has also helped Young with strategizing and advising on how to make this dream of flight a reality.

“We think it will be pretty amazing taking in the view from that perspective,” Young says. “I think it would be great for the residents and people visiting Pittsburgh to immerse themselves into the essence of the cityscape.”

The half-mile proposed zip line would cross the Ohio River at 50 mph and with a 400 foot vertical drop. Young will use the grant funds to bring a national zip line company to Pittsburgh to conduct a feasability study.

Young says the project has verbal arrangements with property owners at the proposed take-off and landing sites. A landing platform would be constructed at the North Shore location with enough height to prevent interference with river traffic.

ZipPitt still needs approvals and permits from the City of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania Department of Environmental Protection, and the Army Corps of Engineers.

Young says currently the only urban zip line in the United States is in Las Vegas, where for five blocks riders sail between buildings in that city’s downtown skyline.

ZipPitt would cost customers approximately $30 to ride. Young believes it would of interest to city visitors, particularly those riding bikes or renting kayaks near other North Shore attractions, as well as city residents.

Awesome Pittsburgh, which awarded its most recent grant to ZipPitt, is a local chapter of the Awesome Foundation, whose goal it is to forward the “interest of Awesomeness” with $1,000 micro grants.