HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForumSkyscraper Posters
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Global Projects & Construction > Highrise & Supertall Proposals

    

Transit Terminal Tower in the SkyscraperPage Database

Building Data Page   • Comparison Diagram   • Philadelphia Skyscraper Diagram
Philadelphia Projects & Construction Forum
            
View Full Map

Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #121  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2017, 12:46 PM
City Wide City Wide is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 339
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caruso975 View Post
This is an important, perhaps the most important point for all to understand regarding the timing of Schuylkill Yards and the implementation of the 30th Street Station master plan. Ultimately, it will all be determined by market demand and nothing else. Drexel will seed an initial building or renovation with some classroom space but from there forward it will be the market. A developer has not even been selected for either the Cira 2 site nor the Amtrak rail yards. There is no design yet for any building, other than a master plan vision. Initial development on the land controlled by Amtrak will likely start with the corner of 30th Street and JFK (aka Cira 2). Probably, under the best of circumstances, a 2019 start. I would assume a mixed use tower because there is not sufficient demand for all 900,000 sf to be office. This will also be the most expense tower built in the city due to the site characteristics, so it will have to be a tenant or user willing to pay a top rent.
I think that what you and the prior post, #117, are saying is probably true. But that begs the question of why would Amtrak and others go through the exercise of a master plan when very little if anything is actually planned? Its not like the plan came up with any radical ideas, like moving the exits ramps from I-76 or putting the suburban train lines under ground (both should have been considered), that would need long term planning to see them through.

And like you mentioned the Cira 2 site that is suggested would be built over existing tracks making its construction highly expensive and very doubtful, as long as there is other less complicated sites in the area to build on.

As much as I enjoy the prospect of what the master plan presents and the drawings/dreams that were released, in a nut shell it basically is saying the obvious---when market conditions call for it, the first buildings will be built on land not presently used for tracks, and then after that land is used up somebody could build over the tracks. What might actually get built is so far out in the future just about anything could have been proposed.

If another plan came out of the blue---the 76'ers wanting to build their own, basketball only dream arena over the tracks, or Google wanting to build an east coast campus----I'm quite sure Amtrak would be thrilled to sell them or anybody else, the air rights.

My prediction is that sometime in the next 5+ years SEPTA will work with others on rebuilding the underground connection to the station and that as construction starts up along JFK Blvd. that maybe there will be a push to move the buses to a built space somewhere around the station. Other then that I believe that this plan will just join the other past plans collecting dust. Whatever the market needs are, the plans Drexel has in its Schuylkill Yards concept will be able to handle them for a very long time. And its not like center city is full!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #122  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2017, 12:38 AM
Londonee Londonee is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: London
Posts: 941
Quote:
Originally Posted by City Wide View Post
I think that what you and the prior post, #117, are saying is probably true. But that begs the question of why would Amtrak and others go through the exercise of a master plan when very little if anything is actually planned? Its not like the plan came up with any radical ideas, like moving the exits ramps from I-76 or putting the suburban train lines under ground (both should have been considered), that would need long term planning to see them through.

And like you mentioned the Cira 2 site that is suggested would be built over existing tracks making its construction highly expensive and very doubtful, as long as there is other less complicated sites in the area to build on.

As much as I enjoy the prospect of what the master plan presents and the drawings/dreams that were released, in a nut shell it basically is saying the obvious---when market conditions call for it, the first buildings will be built on land not presently used for tracks, and then after that land is used up somebody could build over the tracks. What might actually get built is so far out in the future just about anything could have been proposed.

If another plan came out of the blue---the 76'ers wanting to build their own, basketball only dream arena over the tracks, or Google wanting to build an east coast campus----I'm quite sure Amtrak would be thrilled to sell them or anybody else, the air rights.

My prediction is that sometime in the next 5+ years SEPTA will work with others on rebuilding the underground connection to the station and that as construction starts up along JFK Blvd. that maybe there will be a push to move the buses to a built space somewhere around the station. Other then that I believe that this plan will just join the other past plans collecting dust. Whatever the market needs are, the plans Drexel has in its Schuylkill Yards concept will be able to handle them for a very long time. And its not like center city is full!
Yeah the cynic in me agrees. These "master plans" - of which the city has commissioned dozens (my favorite being the once every 5 years "Penns Landing Master Plan") - just seem to be an easy way to spend grant money. And SOM, or whatever architectural firm commissioned - is only happy to accept the enrichment. The money (hundreds of thousands - millions of dollars) probably helps subsidize some of their actual high profile projects that may be less profitable and more or less goes to young 3D artists/designers who spit out these beautiful, polished compositions that make skyscraper/development geeks like us salivate.

The extent of these master plans seems to me, and particularly this one: let's build some decks over the tracks, and then build some cool looking skyscrapers on said decks. I'll see you guys in 10 years.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #123  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2017, 11:34 AM
gttx's Avatar
gttx gttx is offline
Urban Explorer
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: New York, New York
Posts: 2,030
Quote:
Originally Posted by Londonee View Post
Yeah the cynic in me agrees. These "master plans" - of which the city has commissioned dozens (my favorite being the once every 5 years "Penns Landing Master Plan") - just seem to be an easy way to spend grant money. And SOM, or whatever architectural firm commissioned - is only happy to accept the enrichment. The money (hundreds of thousands - millions of dollars) probably helps subsidize some of their actual high profile projects that may be less profitable and more or less goes to young 3D artists/designers who spit out these beautiful, polished compositions that make skyscraper/development geeks like us salivate.

The extent of these master plans seems to me, and particularly this one: let's build some decks over the tracks, and then build some cool looking skyscrapers on said decks. I'll see you guys in 10 years.
Ultimately the cynic in you may win out, but I can tell you that what you described is not what happened here. This was the latest in a long line of plans that have thus far been unrealized, but the impetus was to recognize what went wrong before and try to correct for that - in this case, by marshaling the key stakeholders to produce a joint planning effort, which has not happened before. Between Amtrak, SEPTA, Drexel, PennDOT, and Brandywine, every parcel around 30th Street Station and within the rail yards is accounted for, and they are the organizations who ultimately shaped the plan, even if SOM actually put pen to paper to draw it.

If it isn't already obvious, I am very close to this project. It wasn't some little thing just to subsidize more important work - this, in itself, is important, high-profile work. Sure, the final renderings are a bit pie-in-the-sky, but you ultimately need something to talk about and market beyond just a thick planning book (there are big technical appendices in addition to the public plan which document the facility, transportation operations, and economics). The renderings are a tiny fraction of the cost of a 2+ year effort by consulting firms.

Beyond that, I will just ignore the word "enrichment," because, well, ever been an architect?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #124  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2017, 2:08 PM
Boku Boku is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by gttx View Post
Ultimately the cynic in you may win out, but I can tell you that what you described is not what happened here. This was the latest in a long line of plans that have thus far been unrealized, but the impetus was to recognize what went wrong before and try to correct for that - in this case, by marshaling the key stakeholders to produce a joint planning effort, which has not happened before. Between Amtrak, SEPTA, Drexel, PennDOT, and Brandywine, every parcel around 30th Street Station and within the rail yards is accounted for, and they are the organizations who ultimately shaped the plan, even if SOM actually put pen to paper to draw it.

If it isn't already obvious, I am very close to this project. It wasn't some little thing just to subsidize more important work - this, in itself, is important, high-profile work. Sure, the final renderings are a bit pie-in-the-sky, but you ultimately need something to talk about and market beyond just a thick planning book (there are big technical appendices in addition to the public plan which document the facility, transportation operations, and economics). The renderings are a tiny fraction of the cost of a 2+ year effort by consulting firms.

Beyond that, I will just ignore the word "enrichment," because, well, ever been an architect?
Thank you for this. Obviously the renderings are meant to catch your eye and draw you to the text, and there may well never be a 1200-foot tall building there to grace the skyline, but to dismiss the entire plan as unrealistic, or that it was created just to line someone's pockets, isn't fair.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #125  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2017, 3:01 PM
City Wide City Wide is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 339
Quote:
Originally Posted by gttx View Post
Ultimately the cynic in you may win out, but I can tell you that what you described is not what happened here. This was the latest in a long line of plans that have thus far been unrealized, but the impetus was to recognize what went wrong before and try to correct for that - in this case, by marshaling the key stakeholders to produce a joint planning effort, which has not happened before. Between Amtrak, SEPTA, Drexel, PennDOT, and Brandywine, every parcel around 30th Street Station and within the rail yards is accounted for, and they are the organizations who ultimately shaped the plan, even if SOM actually put pen to paper to draw it.

If it isn't already obvious, I am very close to this project. It wasn't some little thing just to subsidize more important work - this, in itself, is important, high-profile work. Sure, the final renderings are a bit pie-in-the-sky, but you ultimately need something to talk about and market beyond just a thick planning book (there are big technical appendices in addition to the public plan which document the facility, transportation operations, and economics). The renderings are a tiny fraction of the cost of a 2+ year effort by consulting firms.

Beyond that, I will just ignore the word "enrichment," because, well, ever been an architect?
Since you are close to this plan I'm glad that you weighting in.
Can you comment on my post above, #121. Or better yet, in a sentence or two, say what your take is on the end result of this plan and how it will be used for anything going forward? As an example, meaning, out of the discussions and in the plan itself is talk about improving the connection between the station and SEPTA, and I hope that starts tomorrow. But lets face it, a multi party, many month long planning exercise wasn't needed to realize that improvement was needed. What do you think will or might come out of this plan that wouldn't have happened in the natural course of development?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #126  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2017, 3:18 PM
gttx's Avatar
gttx gttx is offline
Urban Explorer
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: New York, New York
Posts: 2,030
Quote:
Originally Posted by City Wide View Post
Since you are close to this plan I'm glad that you weighting in.
Can you comment on my post above, #121. Or better yet, in a sentence or two, say what your take is on the end result of this plan and how it will be used for anything going forward? As an example, meaning, out of the discussions and in the plan itself is talk about improving the connection between the station and SEPTA, and I hope that starts tomorrow. But lets face it, a multi party, many month long planning exercise wasn't needed to realize that improvement was needed. What do you think will or might come out of this plan that wouldn't have happened in the natural course of development?
The biggest thing that can come out of it is that the people who need to coordinate will do so, and that they will be all working from the same script.

With respect to the subway connection, for example, I think everyone intuitively knew that this was a priority, but just how much people wanted it - when compared to a long list of other priorities - was unclear. The plan helped shake out what the real near-term projects should be, with the goal of then setting up longer-term projects. Will it all happen exactly this way? No, of course not. But actions taken now should always be done with the goal of enabling future work, not getting in its way. It also galvanized the principle organizations to coordinate when seeking funding for projects from an array of sources, where alone they might be competing or even at odds with each other. I think the biggest "win" from the plan was that all 5 principles announced early phase projects when the plan was published last summer. I hope that make good on those promises.

Here is a more concrete example of the value of this sort of planning: Cira Centre is a project that is the realization of an older master plan for this district. While most of what was planned back then didn't happen, this early phase did. Unfortunately, since the plan was not done in concert with the broad group of stakeholders represented here, it stopped at that one building. What's more, the building is sited in a place that enabled simple development (ie, it avoids all rail infrastructure), but which ultimately complicates development within the rail yards, since the extension of 30th Street north just leads into the Cira Garage. If we ultimately want that road extending into the rail yards, it needs to perform some gymnastics that could have been avoided if everything had been agreed to, in concept, before Cira was built. The hope is that projects moving forward can always keep one eye on the future.

Another way to look at it might be that no one is willing to act without some guarantee that others will do the same.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #127  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2017, 4:18 PM
Gonzo the Great's Avatar
Gonzo the Great Gonzo the Great is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: the Henson Galaxy
Posts: 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boku View Post
Thank you for this. Obviously the renderings are meant to catch your eye and draw you to the text, and there may well never be a 1200-foot tall building there to grace the skyline, but to dismiss the entire plan as unrealistic, or that it was created just to line someone's pockets, isn't fair.


Yes and just like the other terminal tower plan , I envision this 1200' day dream to be the result of someone snorting cocaine with a
trench shovel . That's not to say NOTHING will be built but , for a lot of other proposed projects it's been the Alice in Wonderland
" eat me " shrinking cake , and over the 10/20 year development stage this is advertised to take I won't be surprised if the whole
fairytale ends up a few 300' high rise ......... Now , prove me wrong .
__________________
...... I had that weird dream again !
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #128  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2017, 7:24 PM
mcgrath618 mcgrath618 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gonzo the Great View Post
Yes and just like the other terminal tower plan , I envision this 1200' day dream to be the result of someone snorting cocaine with a
trench shovel . That's not to say NOTHING will be built but , for a lot of other proposed projects it's been the Alice in Wonderland
" eat me " shrinking cake , and over the 10/20 year development stage this is advertised to take I won't be surprised if the whole
fairytale ends up a few 300' high rise ......... Now , prove me wrong .
There's another Terminal Tower Plan?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #129  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2017, 7:27 PM
summersm343's Avatar
summersm343 summersm343 is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 10,679
We should be hearing more about the first development in this plan (Cira II site at the Northwest corner of 30th and JFK above the rail tracks) within the next few months.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #130  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2017, 7:27 PM
summersm343's Avatar
summersm343 summersm343 is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 10,679
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcgrath618 View Post
There's another Terminal Tower Plan?
I think he means Schuylkill Yards.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #131  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2017, 1:18 AM
TechTalkGuy's Avatar
TechTalkGuy TechTalkGuy is offline
@TechTalkGuy (Twitter)
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,262
............
__________________
The taller, the better
Reply With Quote
     
     
End
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Global Projects & Construction > Highrise & Supertall Proposals
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 7:19 AM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.