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  #81  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2007, 4:26 AM
officedweller officedweller is offline
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Yeah, I noted that afterwards (amended my post a couple of times). I think that would work - and it only needs to be a railing / fence shoulder height.

Also mentioned that at VCC the retail space is flexible so that could be pared back to widen the concourse. I think they'll need it there.

The other ones of concern would be anywhere with a bus loop - Bridgeport/Marine/Brighouse especially.

Another option for some stations would be to move the ticket machines outside into a new secure enclosure i.e. behind rolldown shutters (granted they do have money in them and would be theft targets) and then the entire area at the base of the escalators could be behind gates. That would work for Joyce.
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  #82  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2007, 5:18 AM
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Article from the Vancouver Sun on-line:

Quote:
Faregates for SkyTrain
TransLink hopes to add entry and exit barriers at the stations in 2008

Kelly Sinoski and Doug Ward, Vancouver Sun
Published: Thursday, November 08, 2007

The SkyTrain system will likely be overhauled in the new year with faregates and smart cards in a bid to boost safety and reduce crime and fare evasion along the line.

TransLink chairman Malcolm Brodie said today the new "controlled access" system - using entry and exit barriers at the stations - is expected to be installed in 2008. But he said it's still unknown how much it will cost, or where the money will come from.

He estimates retrofitting the Canada and Millennium lines with faregates would carry a capital cost of between $15 million and $20 million apiece per year, while the Expo line would be "substantially more."

Unlike the other two lines, the Expo line - the first leg of the SkyTrain - was not designed to accommodate controlled access, Brodie said.

Besides the gates, the stations would require attendants and maintenance staff.

"We have to understand how the system is going to be paid for; we need funding to cover the capital costs and the operating costs," said Brodie, who met with Transportation Minister Kevin Falcon a few weeks ago about the option but wasn't sure when an official announcement would be made.

"Costs will be a major factor whether you want it system wide or on just one line."

Falcon did not return calls today.

But Brodie said he supports the notion of faregates - used in major cities like London - to deter crime and reduce fare evasion.

The SkyTrain system has been operating under a proof-of-payment system and TransLink has estimated that it loses $6 million to $7 million a year in revenue through fare evasion. This includes people who ride SkyTrain without a ticket or slip in the backdoor of a bus plus those who buy a ticket for one zone and ride through three.

It was estimated in 2004 that 36.6 million people boarded SkyTrain and that roughly eight per cent didn't pay.

Fares account for only 37 per cent of revenue. SkyTrain officials have said previously that turnstiles were too expensive to be viable. The cost of a retrofit would be $90 million to $120 million, according to earlier estimates.

The province is also considering smart cards, which would allow commuters to buy a card - with a certain amount of money on it - and just scan it to get through the gates.

© Vancouver Sun
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  #83  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2007, 5:19 AM
deasine deasine is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by officedweller View Post
Another option for some stations would be to move the ticket machines outside into a new secure enclosure i.e. behind rolldown shutters (granted they do have money in them and would be theft targets) and then the entire area at the base of the escalators could be behind gates. That would work for Joyce.
That would work for many SkyTrain stations actually... Actually thinking about that: Edmonds station, one of the ticket machines are outside: as seen in this picture:



I'm going to use my first post of this thread to post the latest updates btw. I think i have too much time on my hands =P

From Officedweller who posted this on SCC
Quote:
Faregates for SkyTrain
TransLink hopes to add entry and exit barriers at the stations in 2008

Kelly Sinoski and Doug Ward, Vancouver Sun
Published: Thursday, November 08, 2007

The SkyTrain system will likely be overhauled in the new year with faregates and smart cards in a bid to boost safety and reduce crime and fare evasion along the line.

TransLink chairman Malcolm Brodie said today the new "controlled access" system - using entry and exit barriers at the stations - is expected to be installed in 2008. But he said it's still unknown how much it will cost, or where the money will come from.

He estimates retrofitting the Canada and Millennium lines with faregates would carry a capital cost of between $15 million and $20 million apiece per year, while the Expo line would be "substantially more."

Unlike the other two lines, the Expo line - the first leg of the SkyTrain - was not designed to accommodate controlled access, Brodie said.

Besides the gates, the stations would require attendants and maintenance staff.

"We have to understand how the system is going to be paid for; we need funding to cover the capital costs and the operating costs," said Brodie, who met with Transportation Minister Kevin Falcon a few weeks ago about the option but wasn't sure when an official announcement would be made.

"Costs will be a major factor whether you want it system wide or on just one line."

Falcon did not return calls today.

But Brodie said he supports the notion of faregates - used in major cities like London - to deter crime and reduce fare evasion.

The SkyTrain system has been operating under a proof-of-payment system and TransLink has estimated that it loses $6 million to $7 million a year in revenue through fare evasion. This includes people who ride SkyTrain without a ticket or slip in the backdoor of a bus plus those who buy a ticket for one zone and ride through three.

It was estimated in 2004 that 36.6 million people boarded SkyTrain and that roughly eight per cent didn't pay.

Fares account for only 37 per cent of revenue. SkyTrain officials have said previously that turnstiles were too expensive to be viable. The cost of a retrofit would be $90 million to $120 million, according to earlier estimates.

The province is also considering smart cards, which would allow commuters to buy a card - with a certain amount of money on it - and just scan it to get through the gates.

© Vancouver Sun
Updated front page

Last edited by deasine; Nov 9, 2007 at 5:32 AM.
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  #84  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2007, 5:33 AM
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Transit takes tech fast-lane
By Matt Kieltyka, 24 hours

The Lower Mainland's public transit system doesn't exactly scream "high-tech," but that's about to change.

On Wednesday, New Westminsterbased Novax Industries was awarded a lucrative contract from TransLink to modernize the region's transit system with a wireless system it says will revolutionize municipal wireless capabilities.

In August, 24 hours reported on Novax's "TransPod," a wireless broadband system that gives transit vehicles priority through signalized intersections, remote telemetry and enhanced communication.

The technology also allows for information stations at bus stops that show riders where the nearest bus is and estimate its time of arrival, and even allow riders to access the Internet from a bus.

At the time, it seemed like a vision into the future.

But now that they have the green light from TransLink, Novax president Dave Atnikov told 24 hours that the infrastructure for the wireless mesh could begin to go up in a matter of months, starting with a 31-intersection "showcase" project down Main Street.

"Now it's real," said Atnikov. "[TransLink] has put their belief in municipal wireless and what it can do for infrastructure development in the region."

Before transit users start checking their e-mail on a bus, TransLink must decide whether to make the service available, which is not guaranteed.
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  #85  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2007, 5:40 AM
deasine deasine is offline
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So does that mean Main St. will be the second bus route in Vancouver to incorporate real time displays and automated messages on the bus then?

I noticed that there are more nad more electric buses that have digital led signs in the front now.
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  #86  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2007, 7:34 AM
deasine deasine is offline
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CTV says it would be completed by 2010 (the gates).
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  #87  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2007, 7:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deasine View Post
CTV says it would be completed by 2010 (the gates).
lol, i saw that too on their online recording. i initially thought it was just for dramatic event, since they are the 2010 host broadcaster. is it just me or whenever the anchors/reporters on CTV say "2010", they over pronounce it or put a huge emphasize in it. haha, subliminal messaging.

afterall, we did hear Global say "2008".
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  #88  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2007, 8:02 AM
officedweller officedweller is offline
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That seems more reasonable.
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  #89  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2007, 8:13 AM
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i saw something on the Global news - sounds like the losses are a lot higher than they would ever admit to - about time to stop fare evaders...

what about setting up a free zone?

i was just in portland and the max and the street cars and busses have a "fareless square" where you can ride without paying

but the whole system itself is honour based like ours and only once did I see an officer with a ticket book get on our car and I don't think he even asked anyone to see their ticket
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  #90  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2007, 8:18 PM
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Crackdown on transit crime
Transportation minister plans transit security measures to deter cheaters

John Bermingham, With a file by John Colebourn, The Province
Published: Friday, November 09, 2007

The B.C. government wants to take the crime train out of SkyTrain.

Transportation Minister Kevin Falcon unveiled ideas yesterday to radically overhaul the transit system to make it a safer ride -- and to stop fare evaders in their tracks.

His sweeping plans include:

- Installing electronic turnstiles at every SkyTrain and Canada Line station before the 2010 Olympics, along with more closed-circuit cameras.

- Launching a smart-card system to be used on trains and buses, which can be recharged at vending machines or on the Internet.

- Pursuing fare evaders with criminal prosecutions and on-the-spot fines.

- Boosting security outside SkyTrain stations.


- Improving safety for bus drivers.

Falcon said he was impressed by the London Underground and the Dutch Metro system in Rotterdam during a trip to Europe in September.

After talking with senior security officials in London, he became convinced SkyTrain needs to install turnstiles and more closed-circuit TV.

"The personal safety of commuters improves dramatically in a closed system," he told The Province.

"Women, in particular, feel safer and are safer. It's a controlled area and criminals generally stay out."

Falcon said turnstiles weed out the hang-arounds and reduce the chance of an act of terrorism.

The head of the Dutch transit system told Falcon that prior to installing its gated system, 60 per cent of all violence and assaults were caused by people who didn't pay fares.

After the turnstiles went in, fare evasion fell from 20 per cent to two per cent and ridership rose by almost 30 per cent.


Turnstiles have been priced at $100 million plus, but Falcon hopes to find a private partner to build and operate the system on a revenue-sharing basis.

A smart-card system would allow passengers to pay as they go by touching their card on an electronic reader. The card automatically debits the fare and can be topped up at stations or on the Internet.

"It's very easy to use," said Falcon. "It actually grows your ridership dramatically. It's really convenient."

Falcon called current fare-evasion enforcement in B.C. "a joke," with evaders giving bogus names and refusing to pay $173 fines.

Transit cops in London criminally charge evaders if they give wrong names and levy on-the-spot fines. Falcon wants a similar system here.


"Your fare-evasion figures drop to single figures overnight," he said. "The fact is, it's too easy for people not to pay today. It has a corrosive effect on the honest people."

Fare-evaders cost TransLink up to $7 million a year.

Falcon said he's also relying on municipalities to increase police presence around SkyTrain stations.

TransLink chairman Malcolm Brodie welcomed the turnstiles, smart-card system and toughening the fare-evasion regimen.

"I believe it's a matter of safety and security," he said. "And the perception and the reality of security will increase with the gated system."

Brodie said smart cards are "inevitable."

"Not only will the smart-card system support the turnstile system, I believe it will result in greater fare collection, and it will result in greater convenience to the public."

Meanwhile, commuters at the Waterfront SkyTrain station yesterday said the proposals make sense.

"I think turnstiles are a good idea," said SkyTrain rider Sharon Farrar, 50, of Port Coquitlam.

"Too many people are getting a free ride," she added.

Farrar also said more security cameras and more transit cops are welcome.

"There's no problem with more security if you aren't doing anything wrong," she said.

Jason Beck, 26, uses the SkyTrain regularly and wonders if fare cheats will be stopped by turnstiles.

"I think a lot of people will jump over the turnstiles," he said.

And he said he has more safety concerns when on buses.

"I think buses are worse than SkyTrains," he said.

"The stations are secure and most of the attacks are happening outside of the SkyTrain stations," he pointed out.

Summerland resident Krista Plomish, 35, in Vancouver on business, said she prefers to use the SkyTrain rather than her car.

She likes the system but knows ugly incidents happen.

"I have concerns about taking the SkyTrain at certain hours. More security is a good idea."

Falcon said he doesn't know the final cost of the security measures but will make sure TransLink gets the money to pull it off.

- Falcon also said he is thinking of starting random checks of vehicles and passengers prior to boarding B.C. Ferries to thwart terrorists.

"You can't check every vehicle and car," he said. "But there are random checks that could be undertaken. There are different ways you could approach it, that create real nervousness amongst people that have nefarious intentions."

jbermingham@png.canwest.com
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  #91  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2007, 9:21 PM
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I'm glad to hear London, New York, Paris, etc. have been able "to stop fare evaders in their tracks."

However I seem to remember Translink and others have done studies that find a proof-of-pavement system yields a rate of fare evasion that is statistically comparable to those with turnstiles. The cost of closing the gap would be well in excess of the revenue saved. Plus, come on, the people who are cheating are going to do so no matter what. What we need are more Transit Police and staff at each station and not a fortress mentality where every opening is closed with bars except the turnstiles. I think that approach would do far more harm than good to the public good because it would send the message that the problem is so bad we needed to resort to this. Instead our current system sends the message that the rules are being followed and random spot tests will be used to find the handful of cheats.

It's like walking into a bank and having a security guard there. If he were to pull a gun on you and pat you down as you enter, that would be the turnstile system. If he were to nod and say hello then the deterrence would be there without resorting to treating everyone like a criminal. In transit the turnstiles aren't the deterrent, its the staff and police who are.

I've got no problem at all with additional CCTVs. The ones they've got now look ancient, only one or two steps removed from film cameras.

Here is my biggest concern about turnstiles, there isn't room in our stations for the lineups that will inevitably form to pass through them. Commercial Drive/Broadway Station regularly has two or three full 99 B-Line 60-foot articulated buses arrive simultaneously. It is not unusual at all to have two or three hundred people streaming into the station in a matter of moments while a similar number make their way out of the station or to the out-bound 99 B-Line stop. There is only room for three or, maybe, four turnstiles side by side at each entrance in each direction, and if I'm not mistaken you have to use your smart card again as you exit a station to end the trip calculation. This means that at any given time there could be upwards of four or five hundred people trying to stream through narrow entrances and exits to use their smart cards at this station and it just wasn't designed to have the immense mezzanine to accommodate such a crowd. And what about strollers, wheelchairs, buggies, and bikes? Will there even be room to install a barrier-free entrance? Will that have to be staffed? Will we need staff at each barrier free entrance in each station throughout the system??

I'm all for fare enforcement but this is a dead horse that is being beaten. Fare evasion is low and we have a cost effective system of enforcement through spot checks and dragnets using staff that provide additional assistance and wayfinding help. We should have more transit police and SkyTrain staff at each station but I have yet to hear a compelling argument for installing turnstiles in our system.

Lastly, the people who are busted for fare evasion are almost universally deadbeat addicts or foreigners who probably couldn't read the signs. The former should be put into stocks and the latter should be let off with a warning and a quick demonstration of purchasing a fare. The machines function in many languages other than english and once someone with a language barrier learns how to access their own language or can memorize how to buy a fare, then the problem is solved.
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  #92  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2007, 9:32 PM
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^ IMO, vancouver is unique in that the the people who do drug-driven crime are rootless, shiftless and very fluid. they don't worry about spot checks, they don't worry about fines or penalties. I've been to vienna, and although they have an honor system, they do not have this demographic that we have here. london underground-style gates provide some deterent to this, notperfect, but I think that people will notice a sharp difference once this is in.

As well, as I've mentioned before, with turnstiles we may be able to get rid of ridiculous zone boundaries and try to use a more fair 'pay for distance' model. many people I know in by joyce station would rather drive to metrotown instead of using skytrain.
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  #93  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2007, 1:01 AM
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Originally Posted by SFUVancouver View Post
I'm glad to hear London, New York, Paris, etc. have been able "to stop fare evaders in their tracks."

...

It's like walking into a bank and having a security guard there. If he were to pull a gun on you and pat you down as you enter, that would be the turnstile system. If he were to nod and say hello then the deterrence would be there without resorting to treating everyone like a criminal. In transit the turnstiles aren't the deterrent, its the staff and police who are.
Pity about your analogy, but BC has one of the highest rate of bank robbery in Canada. And BC is precisely where the "security guard" system is in place. Last I heard, there were about 350 bank robberies in BC per year (I think the stat was for 2006). Robberies were way higher in the "nod and say hello" BC than they were in the "pat you down" east - I know at least Royal Bank has the staff behind bulletproof glass barriers in some branches. See the Statscan website for exact stats, but I remember it being something like 150 robberies for Vancouver and 100 robberies for Toronto, per year.

As I said in another thread, in fact in 2 other threads, regarding crime on buses and crime in and around skytrain, a lot of crime is opportunistic. If people think they can get away with it they will try. If you prevent them from doing so in the first place, YES it makes your business look less friendly, but it can save pain, expense and often lives.

And the fact that Translink is doing such a massive U-Turn on the subject of turnstiles supports this theory.
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  #94  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2007, 1:18 AM
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Didn't Amsterdam see a 30% increase in subway use after fare gates were installed? Surely, we'd see similar results with SkyTrain and the additional ridership could offset the new operating costs of those fare gates.

Don't forget that fare gates on SkyTrain will likely be another one of Falcon's private sector ventures.

----

These gates will have to be installed sometime in the future anyway, might as well make it now. It'll eliminate much of the crime that's rampant on the system and it'll give the public a sense (or false sense) of safety - either way, it's good since the image of SkyTrain isn't all that great right now....but i do agree with SFU Vancouver's concerns about bottlenecks. I'd assume any fare gate installation would be accompanied by expanding the mezzanine/concourse areas of the station.

For e.g., as posted before, look at how narrow the C-Line's City Centre Station is....from what i can see, there's a ridiculous 4 turnstiles in the diagram.....that's some nice planning -

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  #95  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2007, 2:51 AM
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And the fact that Translink is doing such a massive U-Turn on the subject of turnstiles supports this theory.
TransLink did not do a u-turn. Kevin Falcon came back from a trip, said he wants turnstiles, and is now pushing TransLink to okay the idea. TransLink will not be the one to pay for it - as has already been reported, Falcon wants to do a P3, where the private corporation will get a pecentage of revenue (It's not clear whether this is fare revenue, or evasion ticket revenue). TransLink has always been of the position that the cost to benefit ratio does not make fiscal sense for them to invest in a turnstile system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.x2 View Post
It'll eliminate much of the crime that's rampant on the system and it'll give the public a sense (or false sense) of safety - either way, it's good since the image of SkyTrain isn't all that great right now
Crime is not rampant on SkyTrain. Our rail system is one of the safest around. It does not conjure up images of ghetto drug dealers and homeless people (that's only late at night on weekdays in Surrey). Generally speaking, it's a very nice looking, brightly-lit, and security patrolled system that nary anyone should feel scared about using. It's all about perception though, and those who don't ride SkyTrain are the ones who think it's like the New York Subway.
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  #96  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2007, 2:59 AM
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Originally Posted by mr.x2 View Post
For e.g., as posted before, look at how narrow the C-Line's City Centre Station is....from what i can see, there's a ridiculous 4 turnstiles in the diagram.....that's some nice planning -
Maybe for the size of our system, 3-4 turnstiles should be enough? I remembered some time ago there were 2 transit polices manually inspecting tickets at the entrance (before escalator) of metrotown station during afternoon peak, and I don't recall there's any back up of people who are trying to enter the station..

[On a side note.. I don't think they'll catch any invader this way as the tvm just right beside them...]
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  #97  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2007, 6:40 AM
deasine deasine is offline
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Maybe for the size of our system, 3-4 turnstiles should be enough? I remembered some time ago there were 2 transit polices manually inspecting tickets at the entrance (before escalator) of metrotown station during afternoon peak, and I don't recall there's any back up of people who are trying to enter the station..

[On a side note.. I don't think they'll catch any invader this way as the tvm just right beside them...]
great... as if a downtown Canada Line station only needs 4 turnstiles =.="
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  #98  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2007, 6:49 AM
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great... as if a downtown Canada Line station only needs 4 turnstiles =.="
i actually miscounted, make it three turnstiles.
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  #99  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2007, 6:51 AM
deasine deasine is offline
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I don't know how the hell the Canada planners were doing:
1) Platform Sizes
2) Ticket Concourse Sizes
3) NVM I CAN THINK OF SOO MANY MORE BUT THIS IS JUST MAKING ME FEEL SAD
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  #100  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2007, 6:57 AM
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I don't know how the hell the Canada planners were doing:
1) Platform Sizes
2) Ticket Concourse Sizes
3) NVM I CAN THINK OF SOO MANY MORE BUT THIS IS JUST MAKING ME FEEL SAD
politicians, planners, and businessmen were counting their pennies.
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