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  #61  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2009, 6:25 AM
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in certain cases yes. motor vehicles are highly regulated because they have the potential to cause serious damage and loss of life. bikes are a lot different from a car. first off they are much more maneuverable and nimble than a car. they also do not have the ability to cause nearly as much damage.

bikes are also human powered. it takes a lot of energy to stop and then start again at every block. in a car its as easy as gas, break. im not saying that bikes should never have to stop, but minimizing stops helps me to make good time, and im not endangering anyone else's life.

heres an example. eastbound at 10th and manitoba there is a 4 way stop followed by a block of moderate grade uphill. if i roll up to the stop at 10kmh and the intersection is clearly vacant then i can start hammering and get my speed up to about 25kmh for the uphill climb. if i have to stop at the sign. which i would do if there were potential hazards such as a car, pedestrian, other cyclist, etc. if i had to stop i would probably have to climb the hill at about 5kmh as i wouldnt have enough time to build momentum before the grade steepens. this means that i have to go much slower and use more energy. its a loose loose situation. of course its the right thing to do if theres a potential road space conflict, but when theres not, stopping is next to futile.
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  #62  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2009, 6:35 AM
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The only reason we perceive cycling to be safer is because there are less cyclists. As well, I am certain that one cyclist can do as much damage to a pedestrian as a car can do to a cyclist. There is only so much force needed to seriously injure someone.

If, for example, we had as many cyclists as Copenhagen, you would surely see how many cycling accidents there would be (given a similar cycling attitude or behaviours as seen in Vancouver).
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  #63  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2009, 6:37 AM
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Originally Posted by worldwide View Post
in certain cases yes. motor vehicles are highly regulated because they have the potential to cause serious damage and loss of life. bikes are a lot different from a car. first off they are much more maneuverable and nimble than a car. they also do not have the ability to cause nearly as much damage.

bikes are also human powered. it takes a lot of energy to stop and then start again at every block. in a car its as easy as gas, break. im not saying that bikes should never have to stop, but minimizing stops helps me to make good time, and im not endangering anyone else's life.

heres an example. eastbound at 10th and manitoba there is a 4 way stop followed by a block of moderate grade uphill. if i roll up to the stop at 10kmh and the intersection is clearly vacant then i can start hammering and get my speed up to about 25kmh for the uphill climb. if i have to stop at the sign. which i would do if there were potential hazards such as a car, pedestrian, other cyclist, etc. if i had to stop i would probably have to climb the hill at about 5kmh as i wouldnt have enough time to build momentum before the grade steepens. this means that i have to go much slower and use more energy. its a loose loose situation. of course its the right thing to do if theres a potential road space conflict, but when theres not, stopping is next to futile.
You could make the same argument for the efficiency of a car. "Officer, I didn't stop because I don't want global warming." Regardless of whether or not you are using your own physical energy, there is clearly some cost to stopping (although less so if you have regenerative braking).
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  #64  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2009, 6:48 AM
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As well, I am certain that one cyclist can do as much damage to a pedestrian as a car can do to a cyclist. There is only so much force needed to seriously injure someone.
while this is clearly true, bikes are highly maneuverable, take up less space, and can fit through very tight spaces. in addition to this, while biking you are in a raised state of awareness regarding your surroundings, and you also have no blind spots. i think its fair to say that bikes can avoid accidents while bending the rules a whole lot more effectively than cars.
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  #65  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2009, 6:54 AM
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The only reason we perceive cycling to be safer is because there are less cyclists. As well, I am certain that one cyclist can do as much damage to a pedestrian as a car can do to a cyclist. There is only so much force needed to seriously injure someone.
I'm not so sure about that. The energy with which you hit someone (kinetic energy) is a function of mass and velocity. Bikes are a lot lighter than cars, and they can never pick up the same speed as cars. I've never heard of anyone getting killed from a bike crashing into them (without some other factor such as the person being hit then falling and hitting their head hard on the pavement or something), but certainly no deaths just from force of impact.

I'd much rather get hit by a bike while walking than get hit by a car while biking.
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  #66  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2009, 6:58 AM
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Do they have stop signs in Copenhagen? They use yield signs instead in the Netherlands.


People don't follow laws that don't really make sense. Bikes don't stop at stop signs. Cars don't go 50 in the 50 zone. Pedestrians don't wait for lights when there's nobody coming. These things don't really matter. But there are problems with people breaking rules that really do need to be followed, and those need to be enforced.

I think poor cycling behaviour here is a product of the lack of basic cycling infrastructure. Unless you're on the seawall, you often get to choose between which of two laws to break or between a legal or safe manoeuvre. A lot of people just say fuck it and do whatever they like. If there were reasonable paths to follow, we wouldn't see so many idiots making the rules up as they go.
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  #67  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2009, 6:58 AM
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With the weather we have here, I don't see how biking is actually a viable form of transportation for most individuals that may consider the option. How many people want to go to work all wet, tired out, and sweaty?.....if anything, all this biking infrastructure being built would only see demand in late-spring to early-fall; 5 months of a year.

From what I know, European bike trips are relatively quite short.
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  #68  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2009, 7:05 AM
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Hitting your head on the pavement is usually the cause of death if one dies from being hit by a bike, but that still counts as the bike accident causing death.

Quote:
i think its fair to say that bikes can avoid accidents while bending the rules a whole lot more effectively than cars.
I don't agree with this, i think it completely depends on the driver or cyclist, some people can do amazing things with cars in tight places and short times, the same is true for bikes, while other drivers are slow, arrogant to danger or freeze completely upon trouble, and the exact same is true for cyclists again. I have seen some cyclists freeze on the spot when it comes to a collision. They had plenty of time to maneuver, but they simply do not have to skills to respond.

I don't mind if cyclist do rolling yields on quiet side streets, but when i see cyclists blowing red lights on such streets as Hastings and Burrard they are asking for trouble!
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  #69  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2009, 7:16 AM
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Originally Posted by mr.x2 View Post
With the weather we have here, I don't see how biking is actually a viable form of transportation for most individuals that may consider the option. How many people want to go to work all wet, tired out, and sweaty?.....if anything, all this biking infrastructure being built would only see demand in late-spring to early-fall; 5 months of a year.

From what I know, European bike trips are relatively quite short.

If there was to be a growth in bike ridership, it would likely come from regular joes like you and me instead of commuter cyclists in spandex. To get us to ride our bikes, we need safe infrastructure and easy-to-follow and well-signed routes. And distances of <5 km to our destination or a train/skytrain station.

The weather in the Netherlands is not much different from here. It rains about half the days of the year.
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  #70  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2009, 7:50 AM
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wet - bring a change of clothes

sweaty - see above

tired out - perhaps if youre coming from langley.

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Originally Posted by Metro-One View Post
I don't mind if cyclist do rolling yields on quiet side streets, but when i see cyclists blowing red lights on such streets as Hastings and Burrard they are asking for trouble!
do you mean blowing lights like nyc bike messenger style, or do you mean stopping and proceeding when safe, or do you mean blasting an orange and getting caught up in a bit of red. these are all very different

most cyclists you see downtown during the day are couriers. they arent on a sunday cruiser, they are on the job, working for commission. im not gonna justify them doing anything illegal. just keep that in mind.
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  #71  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2009, 4:56 PM
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I can recall a collision between a speeding cyclist (reports that he was going 50+) and a rollerblader in North Van some years ago... the cyclist died of serious head injuries and the rollerblader was quite hurt.

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Originally Posted by worldwide View Post
most cyclists you see downtown during the day are couriers. they arent on a sunday cruiser, they are on the job, working for commission. im not gonna justify them doing anything illegal. just keep that in mind.
So are taxi drivers, couriers in cars and trucks, delivery trucks, etc.
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  #72  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2009, 6:01 PM
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So I will assume you think double standards are OK.
There are some jurisdictions that recognize that car and bicycles are quite different. They realize that riding a bike is significantly less dangerous than driving a car.

For example, in Idaho cyclists are allowed to do rolling stops at stop signs and are allowed to go through red lights after stopping.

see: http://www.moscow.id.us/police/Operations/bicycles.htm
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  #73  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2009, 7:55 PM
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Translink has really been agressive on the bike front recently. Yet another RFP with the propose of expanding the cycling network/infrastructure.

http://www.translink.bc.ca/files/pro...NetBkStudy.pdf
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  #74  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2009, 9:10 PM
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Originally Posted by jlousa View Post
Translink has really been agressive on the bike front recently. Yet another RFP with the propose of expanding the cycling network/infrastructure.

http://www.translink.bc.ca/files/pro...NetBkStudy.pdf
That's good. Bike Infrastructure is inexpensive and is the cheapest way to get people moving.

Let's start to fizzle our discussion between cars and bikes now. It's starting to get out of hand. This topic is for sharing our biking experiences (not cars vs bikes in general), suggestions in improving bike routes, and developments with regards to biking infrastructure.
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  #75  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2009, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by b5baxter View Post
There are some jurisdictions that recognize that car and bicycles are quite different. They realize that riding a bike is significantly less dangerous than driving a car.

For example, in Idaho cyclists are allowed to do rolling stops at stop signs and are allowed to go through red lights after stopping.

see: http://www.moscow.id.us/police/Operations/bicycles.htm
ah... are you sure about the part about going through the red lights after stopping?... reading carefully.. it doesn't say anything about proceeding through after stopping, just that they can ROR without stopping.

A person operating a bicycle or human-powered vehicle approaching a steady red traffic-control signal shall stop before entering the intersection, except that a person after slowing to a reasonable speed and yielding the right-of-way if required, may cautiously make a right-hand turn without stopping or may cautiously make a left-hand turn onto a one-way highway without stopping.
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  #76  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2009, 11:50 PM
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.. it doesn't say anything about proceeding through after stopping, just that they can ROR without stopping.
Thanks for pointing that out. It looks like the link I used is missing a line or has been changed. The statute is also found here: http://www.legislature.idaho.gov/ids...erFriendly.htm

It states, "Once the person has yielded, he may proceed through the steady red light with caution."

Last edited by b5baxter; Jan 14, 2009 at 11:50 PM. Reason: syntax
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  #77  
Old Posted Jan 15, 2009, 2:41 AM
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A lot of drivers don't even know the rules about red lights - i.e. you can turn right or left onto a one-way street on a red light if it is clear to do so (even if you are on a two-way street).

The rule about proceeding through a red light also applies to cars at a pedestrian-controlled signal in BC (i.e. mid-block with no cross street) - I read that in the Vancouver Sun traffic column a number of years ago - but I wouldn't actually execute the move in case there's an uninformed cop around.
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  #78  
Old Posted Jan 15, 2009, 3:37 AM
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Originally Posted by officedweller View Post
A lot of drivers don't even know the rules about red lights - i.e. you can turn right or left onto a one-way street on a red light if it is clear to do so (even if you are on a two-way street).
I knew that! I am also appalled that not many drivers know about this. Makes me wonder what else they missed from the New Drivers manual.
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  #79  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2009, 10:08 PM
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Okay lets keep this thread on topic from now on.

Update on the Carrell St Greenway, it's going really slow, but it's finally getting there.

City crews have completed the blocks between Expo and Pender (500 - 600 blocks) and are working to complete the Pender to Hastings block (400 block) by the end of January. Construction in the Cordova to Powell block (200 block) will begin in mid January resulting in street closure to traffic in this block. The anticipated completion date for the 200 block is the end of April. Upon completion of the 200 block, construction will begin in the Hastings to Cordova block (300 block).

The scope of work for the Cordova to Powell section includes:
- new brick sidewalk and narrowed roadway;
- new dedicated recreational paths on both sides of the street;
- new streetscape improvements including a granite channel to collect storm water;
- new street trees and landscaping;
- upgrade of the street lighting and pedestrian scale lighting.

400 Block Carrall
Completion: end of January 2009
Activities: full street reconstruction from property line to property line requiring full closure to traffic

200 Block Carrall
Start: mid January 2009
Project End: end of April 2009
Activities: In mid January, for sewer construction work traffic will be restricted during work hours but will be re-opened to southbound traffic after hours when feasible. Starting in late January, the 200 block will be closed to traffic for full street reconstruction.

The projected completion date for the greenway is Summer 2009. During construction, every effort will be made to minimize the impact of the work and to maintain pedestrian access.
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  #80  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2009, 8:15 AM
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What's going on with Maple Tree square?

I thought they were going to redevelop it as part of this Carrall greenway. But it seems to have turned into a separate project. It would be great if they blocked off the traffic and turned it into a proper pedestrianised square; a place filled with tables and chairs where you can while away the afternoon watching people go by... but I know that's not likely.
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