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  #41  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2010, 2:24 AM
van-island van-island is offline
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CPR still owns the land. Vancouver isn't doing anything with that land without paying A LOT of money to CPR.

My compromise:

Streetcars are just that, street cars. There's no point in running them in a separated right-of-way where there are no shops, home, and community centres close by. You WANT streetcars to run in the streets, not only for the proximity to the destinations that they serve, but for the added traffic calming/transportation demand management (read: making it tougher to drive) and pedestrianization attributes that they bring.

So: CPR want to develop, Vancouver wants a streetcar. The only place that a streetcar would have a tough time is where the Arbutus Line doubles back to make the hill (Quilchena Park area).

So:

Vancouver allows CPR to develop the land, all except for the Quilchena Park hill climb area, and a narrow right-of-way to build a greenway across the city north-south.

In exchange for the development rights, CPR in part funds the construction of the IN STREET rail lines from Granville Island to Marpole (or elsewhere).

So is everyone happy or what?
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  #42  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2010, 3:25 AM
Zassk Zassk is offline
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^ I like how you think, but they would also have to keep the south slope right-of-way since there is no through road south of 50th or so. Also, I think CPR should pay for all of the line in exchange for those condos. That said, I would still prefer a completely segregated line running something like Flexity.
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  #43  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2010, 4:10 AM
jsbertram jsbertram is offline
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CPR may own the land, but City controls the land zoning, which is what the City vs. CPR court case was all about. City wanted a transit-oriented redevelopment of the lands after CPR officially abandoned the tracks; CPR wanted edge-to-edge condos and retail, and wanted to force the City to make zoning changes to accommodate CPRs development plans. CPR has usually gotten its way since the first trains arrived here almost 125 years ago, so they were p*ssed when the City dared to say no to them. CPR even went so far as creating models and maps of their redevelopment plans and shopping them around the area to gain community support for the CPR and against the City.

The case went to Supreme Court, and City won - City gets to make land use zoning changes even if CPR doesn't agree with them.

City can now keep zoning as railway industrial, buy the land from CPR cheap ($100 million last I heard), rezone the way they want, slice & dice the land into pieces, develop some land as parks or transit, and make other parts available on 99-year leases, and add a transit improvement levy to the area to pay for a new streetcar from the Fraser River to False Creek.
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  #44  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2010, 4:32 AM
jsbertram jsbertram is offline
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More info to read on rainy windy Easter weekend

City of Vancouver:
Arbutus Corridor Official Development Plan
http://vancouver.ca/COMMSVCS/Bylaws/odp/ac.pdf


SPEC BC:
All Aboard the Arbutus Corridor
http://www.spec.bc.ca/ArbutusCorridor/index.html


Google vancouver "arbutus corridor"
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  #45  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2010, 7:46 PM
whatnext whatnext is offline
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Originally Posted by Conrad Yablonski View Post
I've lived within a block or two of those tracks since the late 70's and have walked from Granville Island to Marpole on them, biked quite a bit too.

As to streetcars IMO that will never happen in the lifetime of anyone posting on this thread-I also know a lot of people who live in Kerrisdale and they have no interest/none in having people from other parts of the city visit (and in fact there's very little to see) nor are they so impecunious as to take transit themselves.

And believe me when you pay as much property tax as those people do City Hall listens carefully.

Then there's the pretty little award winning Community Gardens that have sprung up all along the ribbon-who's going to bulldoze those?
Its brings to mind the Pacific Great Eastern (later BC Rail) tracks that ran though West Vancouver but were abandoned in the 1920's. The residents got the shock of their lives when WAC Bennet resurrected the railroad in the mid-50's. Especially those who had illegally built their houses and gardens onto the right of way in the intervening 30 years!
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  #46  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2010, 8:22 PM
cornholio cornholio is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbertram View Post
CPR may own the land, but City controls the land zoning, which is what the City vs. CPR court case was all about. City wanted a transit-oriented redevelopment of the lands after CPR officially abandoned the tracks; CPR wanted edge-to-edge condos and retail, and wanted to force the City to make zoning changes to accommodate CPRs development plans. CPR has usually gotten its way since the first trains arrived here almost 125 years ago, so they were p*ssed when the City dared to say no to them. CPR even went so far as creating models and maps of their redevelopment plans and shopping them around the area to gain community support for the CPR and against the City.

The case went to Supreme Court, and City won - City gets to make land use zoning changes even if CPR doesn't agree with them.

City can now keep zoning as railway industrial, buy the land from CPR cheap ($100 million last I heard), rezone the way they want, slice & dice the land into pieces, develop some land as parks or transit, and make other parts available on 99-year leases, and add a transit improvement levy to the area to pay for a new streetcar from the Fraser River to False Creek.
Common sense would say that the city wouldn't be able to do that, CPR lawyers would be quick to take that to court and they would win compensation. If the city doesnt allow CPR to rezone the land and then because of that buys it for cheap only to rezone it and profit, especially after they even presented their case in court, they are going to be setting themselves up for a lawsuit. And CPR would gladly take that on as they still have huge land holdings in Vancouver and at some point in the future they will want to redevelop those too, and they wont want to go through all these problems again.
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  #47  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2010, 11:52 PM
jsbertram jsbertram is offline
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Originally Posted by cornholio View Post
Common sense would say that the city wouldn't be able to do that, CPR lawyers would be quick to take that to court and they would win compensation. If the city doesnt allow CPR to rezone the land and then because of that buys it for cheap only to rezone it and profit, especially after they even presented their case in court, they are going to be setting themselves up for a lawsuit. And CPR would gladly take that on as they still have huge land holdings in Vancouver and at some point in the future they will want to redevelop those too, and they wont want to go through all these problems again.
CPR and City have already had this legal fight, and City won.

A nice synopsis by the Expropriation Law Centre:
http://www.expropriationlaw.ca/news/news.asp?id=69

The BC Court of Appeals ruling:
http://www.courts.gov.bc.ca/jdb-txt/...0192.corr1.htm
(the Supreme court refused hear the appeal of this ruling, so it stands)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eminent_domain

As long as CPR is compensated for the land in it's existing condition and zoning, they have no grounds to sue (although we all know they'll try). What City may or may not do with the lands after buying them from CPR can't be challenged by CPR after the sale is finalized.

In a similar situation, I don't hear former owners of the SEFC (Olympic Village) lands coming forward and complaining that their industrial lands bought by the City, and now redeveloped into housing, are now more valuable so therefore because they are the former owners they should get more compensation due to the increased value of their former land.

What's to stop CPR from now claiming they need more compensation for the sale of their old railway yards on False Creek? The BC Gov't bought (some say expropriated) the land from CPR and built BC Place and later Expo 86, then resold the land to Concord for condos, and Concord has made a handsome profit.
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  #48  
Old Posted Apr 4, 2010, 12:07 AM
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It is a different situation completely, and I believe should the city attempt to rezone it, it would get sued and almost definitely lose. I believe it's all a non-issue anyways as the city plans on keeping it as a ROW.
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  #49  
Old Posted Apr 4, 2010, 6:37 PM
jsbertram jsbertram is offline
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Got myself a little ahead of what CPR vs City was all about.

CPR wanted to rezone all their land along Arbutus to build condos / retail / commercial &tc.

City was worried that allowing that would prevent future use as greenspace, rail-oriented transit, bike trails &tc., so they passed a by-law "Arbutus Corridor Official Development Plan" that codified the City's desire to have the CPR lands used as a public thoroughfare for rail, transit, and greenspace for pedestrian / urban / heritage trails and cycling paths, but not for motor vehicles, and not for elevated transit -naming SkyTrain as an example.

CPR sued claiming the by-law froze their options for using the land; City counter-claimed that the by-law doesn't stop CPR from continuing to use the land as they have for over 100 years (as a railway), but it is also a guide to future use of the land. As an Official Development Plan, the By-Law doesn't commit the City to undertake any developments as part of the ODP, but it also prevents others from undertaking any developments that are contrary to the ODP. It is meant to be a statement of what the City intends for future use of the Arbutus corridor, while at the same time allowing CPR to continue using the lands as a railway. CPR also now knows that future use of the lands is intended by the City to be greenspace and transit - not condos / retail / commercial redevelopments.

As a by-law and an ODP there is nothing preventing a future City Council from changing these plans and intentions, but this was the City's way of letting the public and CPR know what the City's intentions were at the time.

Now, if the City continues to use this ODP as the basis for negotiations with CPR to purchase the land for use as "greenspace, rail-oriented transit, bike trails &tc.", and then after the purchase a future City Council changed the ODP to allow building condos / retail / commercial on portions that didn't fit the purposes of the original ODP, I can see the CPR crying 'FOUL' and suing.
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  #50  
Old Posted Apr 4, 2010, 7:28 PM
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I believe that the Arbutus line should be reserved for some kind of HSR or heavy rail. There is only so many of those lines remaining so we need to make good use of them. Street cars can go on... streets
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  #51  
Old Posted Apr 4, 2010, 8:52 PM
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Originally Posted by NetMapel View Post
I believe that the Arbutus line should be reserved for some kind of HSR or heavy rail. There is only so many of those lines remaining so we need to make good use of them. Street cars can go on... streets
With all the street crossings, especially the closer to downtown you get, I'm sure the speed would be very limited. Forget HSR. I'm not sure why it seems people get so tied-up in terminology with streetcars. It isn't like they are meant for streets specifically. Think of it as a short train.
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  #52  
Old Posted Apr 4, 2010, 9:30 PM
jsbertram jsbertram is offline
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Henceforth they shall be called Arbutus Corridor Trams.
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  #53  
Old Posted Apr 4, 2010, 10:32 PM
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has anyone ever been there? the tracks are very close to the buildings I can't imagine a heavy rail train there people would freak out
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  #54  
Old Posted Apr 4, 2010, 11:18 PM
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has anyone ever been there? the tracks are very close to the buildings I can't imagine a heavy rail train there people would freak out
They've been through there before... but I'm sure if we were to go back, then yes - people would freak out with the huge train engines and loud whistles.
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  #55  
Old Posted Apr 4, 2010, 11:40 PM
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... the future of the Arbutus Corridor

It's easy .... put a deep-level skytrain metro under the Arbutus Corridor, keep the top as a bike, walking path with exotic floral plantings along the side, and perhaps some limited, discrete, high density development (to be debated later).

The deep-level metro would go downtown under False Creek, have a stop near Granville Island, one at 41st Avenue, naturally, one at the foot of the drive to connect with commuter rail, and continue on, undergound, to YVR ............
after we discover large offshore oil deposits and the billions start flowing in. Case closed.
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  #56  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2010, 10:09 PM
jsbertram jsbertram is offline
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Originally Posted by trofirhen View Post
It's easy .... put a deep-level skytrain metro under the Arbutus Corridor, keep the top as a bike, walking path with exotic floral plantings along the side, and perhaps some limited, discrete, high density development (to be debated later).

The deep-level metro would go downtown under False Creek, have a stop near Granville Island, one at 41st Avenue, naturally, one at the foot of the drive to connect with commuter rail, and continue on, undergound, to YVR ............
after we discover large offshore oil deposits and the billions start flowing in. Case closed.
The oil and gas is there off the BC coast and may be bigger than the Hibernia field - possibly greater than the North Sea fields. However with the "don't explore, don't drill" moratorium in place by the Feds for the last 3 decades, nobody knows just how much is sitting there because modern exploration techniques can't be used right now.

There's a delicate dance going on between the Feds and BC Gov't on how to lift the moratorium just enough to explore the extent of the fields, but at the same time keep it eco-friendly.

I won't be surprised if the US is doing some arm-twisting to get BC gas & oil flowing to the US West Coast to make up for dwindling Alaska production, since the Prudhoe Bay field peaked in 1988 (2 Million barrels daily), and is now running at less than 1 Million barrels daily with over 75% of the field depleted. What remains in the Prudhoe Bay field is getting harder to retrieve and it's estimated that it will be shut down after 2030.

Sometime in the next two decades the US will start agitating to get Alaska oil & gas replaced with another friendly source - from the BC Coast.


To get this back on topic: bring the oil tankers into False Creek, fill up railway tank cars at Granville Island and use the Arbutus Corridor to ship the oil to the Airport where it can be trans-shipped onto airplane tankers & delivered to New Orleans for processing.

(just kidding)

Last edited by jsbertram; Apr 6, 2010 at 6:49 AM.
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  #57  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2010, 11:22 PM
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oil and gas?



Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Interesting ......................
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  #58  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2010, 12:50 AM
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We could open up off shore exploration tomorrow, there would not be the money needed to complete our transit fantasies. Everyone and everything would be demanding money for their causes and at the end of the day there is improvements but nothing all that significant. Look at Alberta for a case study, decades of oil and still no HSR between Edmonton and Calgary, but at least they have no PST.
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  #59  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2010, 1:03 AM
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Originally Posted by jlousa View Post
but at least they have no PST.
And is that even really a good thing?
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  #60  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2010, 3:42 AM
twoNeurons twoNeurons is offline
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And is that even really a good thing?
PST is only good if I don't see it.

I don't understand why they don't make it hidden. I really don't
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