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  #61  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2010, 8:09 AM
BCPhil BCPhil is offline
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Originally Posted by van-island View Post
CPR still owns the land. Vancouver isn't doing anything with that land without paying A LOT of money to CPR.

My compromise:

Streetcars are just that, street cars. There's no point in running them in a separated right-of-way where there are no shops, home, and community centres close by. You WANT streetcars to run in the streets, not only for the proximity to the destinations that they serve, but for the added traffic calming/transportation demand management (read: making it tougher to drive) and pedestrianization attributes that they bring.

So: CPR want to develop, Vancouver wants a streetcar. The only place that a streetcar would have a tough time is where the Arbutus Line doubles back to make the hill (Quilchena Park area).

So:

Vancouver allows CPR to develop the land, all except for the Quilchena Park hill climb area, and a narrow right-of-way to build a greenway across the city north-south.

In exchange for the development rights, CPR in part funds the construction of the IN STREET rail lines from Granville Island to Marpole (or elsewhere).

So is everyone happy or what?
In case you've never really noticed, a majority of the Arbutus ROW runs right next to the street. Between Broadway and 70th (except a few blocks where it climbs the hill) it's right next to Arbutus, or right between West and East Blvd. The ROW follows almost all of the #16 bus route within 100 feet.

The advantage of running "trams" in separate ROW's is that they are unaffected by traffic conditions. There is no need for trains to be stuck at a red light, or to devise extra lanes and special lights to get them through choke points. This gives them a higher average speed.

The ROW also has far fewer crossings than Arbutus and East/West Blvds have intersections. If you look at the maps, there are a lot of turns you can make off those roads, which streetcars would have to contend with. On the ROW, very few roads south of 16th cross the actual ROW. In fact, in a 55 block span, the tram would only need to contend with 10 crossings on the ROW (vs. all of them on the streets). It would be very safe and fast for a tram.

And the actual ROW barley touches the "affluent" part of Shaughnessy, most of the ROW is row houses or newer condos. You have to remember, back when the region was developed, it was still a functioning RR, and living right close to it was actually a step down on the social ladder. Back then there were a lot of much nicer places to live besides living next to a ROW used by freight trains and commoners on the interurban. People who act all self important now are just phonies (or don't actually live close to it).

Besides, the #16 bus is a very busy bus line. Kerrisdale is a very built up part of town and one of the denser areas south of Broadway. The streetcar/tram wouldn't be for bringing people TO them, it would be for brining these urbanites to their jobs downtown and on Broadway. If anything, people in Kerrisdale are trendy, and trams are super trendy, so in a few years they'll all be clamoring for it.
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  #62  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2010, 8:46 AM
deasine deasine is offline
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Agreed. The only part of the streetcar that should be running on the street is between 37th Avenue and King Edward so that it can be closer to the route, which means it is closer to the mall. That turn on the CPR ROW is also quite narrow. Bringing the streetcar to the street will give room for a bike/pedestrian pathway.
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  #63  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2010, 9:11 AM
BCPhil BCPhil is offline
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Originally Posted by deasine View Post
Agreed. The only part of the streetcar that should be running on the street is between 37th Avenue and King Edward so that it can be closer to the route, which means it is closer to the mall. That turn on the CPR ROW is also quite narrow. Bringing the streetcar to the street will give room for a bike/pedestrian pathway.
It's not that much of a mall, it's a Safeway and liquor store (with a good parking lot). That section of Arbutus, where it's twisty, narrow, and steep, is the best part to use he ROW to avoid. And, the Safeway would be only a block walk from a stop on the ROW at Nanton & Maple. It's not that big a deal, but if that's too far a walk for some, they can ride the tram a few more stops to Broadway and go to the IGA Marketplace. (And the building of the tram would encourage more retail along the line anyway).

It would really, really cut down on the cost to build the system if the ROW is used and as little is put on the streets as possible. And we all know how long it takes City crews to work on roads around here
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  #64  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2010, 10:07 AM
ozonemania ozonemania is offline
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Originally Posted by BCPhil View Post
It's not that much of a mall, it's a Safeway and liquor store (with a good parking lot). That section of Arbutus, where it's twisty, narrow, and steep, is the best part to use he ROW to avoid. And, the Safeway would be only a block walk from a stop on the ROW at Nanton & Maple. It's not that big a deal, but if that's too far a walk for some, they can ride the tram a few more stops to Broadway and go to the IGA Marketplace. (And the building of the tram would encourage more retail along the line anyway).

It would really, really cut down on the cost to build the system if the ROW is used and as little is put on the streets as possible. And we all know how long it takes City crews to work on roads around here
I remember reading a while back about plans for redevelopment of the Arbutus Mall site. Something about residential development plus mixed use. Did that idea run cold? Or a figment of my imagination...
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  #65  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2010, 2:04 PM
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jlousa jlousa is offline
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The mall is most likely finally going to get redeveloped I posted the details a while back in the general Vancouver thread.

In my opinion it doesn't make sense to remove the street car from the ROW, like it's been said it's 100ft away, that's no different then if the Millennium line travelled under 10th instead of Broadway and there doesn't seem to be an issue there.
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  #66  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2010, 3:36 PM
twoNeurons twoNeurons is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BCPhil View Post
It's not that much of a mall, it's a Safeway and liquor store (with a good parking lot). That section of Arbutus, where it's twisty, narrow, and steep, is the best part to use he ROW to avoid. And, the Safeway would be only a block walk from a stop on the ROW at Nanton & Maple. It's not that big a deal, but if that's too far a walk for some, they can ride the tram a few more stops to Broadway and go to the IGA Marketplace. (And the building of the tram would encourage more retail along the line anyway).

It would really, really cut down on the cost to build the system if the ROW is used and as little is put on the streets as possible. And we all know how long it takes City crews to work on roads around here
From Arbutus ROW(Maple) @ Nanton to the mall is ~150-250m.

That's not much different than Lougheed to its mall, or even between Metrotown and the nearest grocery store.

Or for that matter, between Newport Village in Port Moody and the closest [future] station.
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  #67  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2010, 6:00 PM
jsbertram jsbertram is offline
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Originally Posted by agrant View Post
They've been through there before... but I'm sure if we were to go back, then yes - people would freak out with the huge train engines and loud whistles.
When CPR was running several freight trains daily, the locals just got used to it - including the mandatory horn at each street crossing. After all, CPR was there since early 1900's; people & houses came later. Certainly the trains weren't as long as the mainline trains running through the mountains, but even with a yard shunting engine and almost a dozen cars and caboose, it was enough to remind people that this was an industrial area along the tracks.

However, since the locals haven't had to deal with daily freights rolling past their homes and offices for over a decade, I agree they will have to get used to the 'ding ding' of a tram rolling by a few times per hour. By the time Arbutus gets sorted out, hopefully the Downtown Streetcar will be running and Vancouverites will be re-learning how to live, work, bike, walk and drive with trams on (or near) their streets.
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  #68  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2010, 8:00 PM
BCPhil BCPhil is offline
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Originally Posted by jsbertram View Post
When CPR was running several freight trains daily, the locals just got used to it - including the mandatory horn at each street crossing. After all, CPR was there since early 1900's; people & houses came later. Certainly the trains weren't as long as the mainline trains running through the mountains, but even with a yard shunting engine and almost a dozen cars and caboose, it was enough to remind people that this was an industrial area along the tracks.

However, since the locals haven't had to deal with daily freights rolling past their homes and offices for over a decade, I agree they will have to get used to the 'ding ding' of a tram rolling by a few times per hour. By the time Arbutus gets sorted out, hopefully the Downtown Streetcar will be running and Vancouverites will be re-learning how to live, work, bike, walk and drive with trams on (or near) their streets.
Most of the crossings on the Arbutus ROW are very straight forward. The tracks cross perpendicularly near most intersections. Most crossings will be safe with nothing more than lights. I highly doubt a tram would need to ding except in situations where the driver feels people are being unsafe (walking on the track oblivious to the approaching train). I mean, buses don't honk their horns when they are going through every intersection. The intersection on the Olympic line was very quiet, even when the train blew the horn it wasn't any louder than the noise emitted by average car horns or even the tweet of the cross walks for the seeing impaired.

Freight trains need to be loud and announce their arrival at crossings because everything needs to be out of their way when they get there. Freight trains are rather heavy and can't stop reasonably well. Streetcars/trams are completely different. They're able to stop as quickly as a big bus and are thus able to handle unexpected situations better than actual trains. If a car stops in a crossing, the tram can put on it's breaks and easily stop.

People seem to have this mindset that the streetcar would be cruising down the street dinging the bell so all can hear, like some 1930's cliche, screeching as it slows down for every corner. The Olympic Line was insanely quiet. Even when it did ding, it was no louder than the acceleration of a diesel bus, and when it passes you, it's eerily quiet. It's like it's not even there. Hybrid cars are louder. It's noises are distinct, and noticeable on that level, but it is not louder than anything else in the streetscape environment.

I used to live a half block from the 49 route, and every 10 minutes my apartment would shake as the diesel bus accelerated. That far away, on the opposite side of the building I could feel and hear it. That's part of urban life. But I would have given anything to have a streetcar glide past in it's place. I would take a few dings over the rumbling of diesel engines anyday.
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  #69  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2010, 9:01 PM
officedweller officedweller is offline
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Originally Posted by twoNeurons View Post
From Arbutus ROW(Maple) @ Nanton to the mall is ~150-250m.

That's not much different than Lougheed to its mall, or even between Metrotown and the nearest grocery store.

Or for that matter, between Newport Village in Port Moody and the closest [future] station.
Plus when Arbutus Village is built out to the street, the distance won't seem nearly as far.
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  #70  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2010, 9:05 PM
whatnext whatnext is offline
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Ironically, when Gordo shut down BC Rail, their fleet of self-propelled rail cars would have come available. They could have been converted into high density configuration and run on this route.
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  #71  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2010, 9:14 PM
officedweller officedweller is offline
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Yeah, the Budd cars - that's what SNC Lavalin had proposed to use for the Blue 22 Toronto airport express train. Basically a diesel mulitple unit.
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  #72  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2010, 11:44 PM
SpikePhanta SpikePhanta is offline
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love reading your opinions everytime!
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  #73  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2010, 1:25 AM
jsbertram jsbertram is offline
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Originally Posted by BCPhil View Post
Most of the crossings on the Arbutus ROW are very straight forward. The tracks cross perpendicularly near most intersections. Most crossings will be safe with nothing more than lights. I highly doubt a tram would need to ding except in situations where the driver feels people are being unsafe (walking on the track oblivious to the approaching train). I mean, buses don't honk their horns when they are going through every intersection. The intersection on the Olympic line was very quiet, even when the train blew the horn it wasn't any louder than the noise emitted by average car horns or even the tweet of the cross walks for the seeing impaired.

Freight trains need to be loud and announce their arrival at crossings because everything needs to be out of their way when they get there. Freight trains are rather heavy and can't stop reasonably well. Streetcars/trams are completely different. They're able to stop as quickly as a big bus and are thus able to handle unexpected situations better than actual trains. If a car stops in a crossing, the tram can put on it's breaks and easily stop.

People seem to have this mindset that the streetcar would be cruising down the street dinging the bell so all can hear, like some 1930's cliche, screeching as it slows down for every corner. The Olympic Line was insanely quiet. Even when it did ding, it was no louder than the acceleration of a diesel bus, and when it passes you, it's eerily quiet. It's like it's not even there. Hybrid cars are louder. It's noises are distinct, and noticeable on that level, but it is not louder than anything else in the streetscape environment.

I used to live a half block from the 49 route, and every 10 minutes my apartment would shake as the diesel bus accelerated. That far away, on the opposite side of the building I could feel and hear it. That's part of urban life. But I would have given anything to have a streetcar glide past in it's place. I would take a few dings over the rumbling of diesel engines anyday.
that reminds me of an electric motorcycle that was sold a few years go in Europe. The bike was so quiet the manufacturer had to install a speaker to make 'revving engine sounds' because pedestrians were walking in front of the drivers.
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  #74  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2010, 2:19 AM
twoNeurons twoNeurons is offline
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Didn't they add a backup beep to the Prius because it was too quiet backing up?
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  #75  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2010, 5:33 AM
jsbertram jsbertram is offline
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I've found some images of European LRTs / Streetcars / Trams in settings that aren't too different from what could be done with the Arbutus Corridor.

Metro Regional Tram in Madrid, Spain:

From http://ttctransit.blogspot.com/

LRT in Bordeaux, France:

From http://ttctransit.blogspot.com/

LRT in Barcelona, Spain:

From http://ttctransit.blogspot.com/

LRT in Strasbourg, France:

From http://ttctransit.blogspot.com/


From http://mtbu.kcg.gov.tw/html/lightrail/evolution.html


From http://mtbu.kcg.gov.tw/html/lightrail/evolution.html

LRT in Melbourne, Australia

From http://ttctransit.blogspot.com/

LRT in Amsterdam, Holland

From http://mtbu.kcg.gov.tw/html/lightrail/evolution.html

It shows that with proper designing and planning you can have streets, transit corridors, pedestrian sidewalks, nearby short and tall buildings, and even flowerbeds.

I wouldn't expect a new LRT / Streetcar / Tram along the Arbutus Corridor to include so much sunshine though ....
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  #76  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2010, 4:28 PM
Zassk Zassk is offline
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^ I have to admit that the grass looks really nice, although there must be considerable upkeep cost.
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  #77  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2010, 7:36 PM
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trofirhen trofirhen is offline
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In Paris there are several tramway lines that do a semi circle around the city "intra muros" (within the Périphérique). The only trouble is, they're not very fast unless there's a long stretch where they can pick up speed.

For the Arbutus Corridor, though, something like this might work well.
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  #78  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2010, 7:48 PM
twoNeurons twoNeurons is offline
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^ I have to admit that the grass looks really nice, although there must be considerable upkeep cost.
No more than your average park.
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  #79  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2010, 11:47 PM
SpikePhanta SpikePhanta is offline
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I like the Bordeux one!
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  #80  
Old Posted May 16, 2010, 4:31 AM
jsbertram jsbertram is offline
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An article on the Arbutus Corridor in the recent Vancouver Courier with some background on CPR vs City, and a plan to get the biking and jogging trails fixed up along the corridor.

http://www.vancourier.com/business/t...683/story.html
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