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  #41  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2010, 1:58 AM
Waders Waders is offline
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A 2nd CTV article on Canada Line. Also watch the CTV news report video.
The article didn't mention when new car will be bought. "Tweaking" the existing system would not be sufficient.

Quote:
Seats hard to come by on popular Canada Line
By: ctvbc.ca
Date: Wednesday Jun. 2, 2010 5:20 PM PT

Ten months after the first train left the station, the Canada Line SkyTrain is already packed with riders, and TransLink is fighting to keep up with the demand.

Since starting up last August, the line has exceeded even the wildest ridership expectations, averaging about 5,300 passengers every hour.

Original projections had 100,000 riders taking the line every day by 2013. Less than a year into operation, that landmark number is already very close in sight.

"We thought we'd carry in the mid-80s -- about 80,000 people a day. In fact, for the month of May, we're averaging about 95,000 people a day," TransLink Executive Vice President Doug Kelsey told CTV News.

TransLink has said that it will order more cars to keep up with the demand, but for now, all it can do it tweak the existing system to try to keep people moving.

"We're going to be doing a review here in the not-too-distant future, and as part of that review we'll be looking at what adjustments can we make around the frequency between trains," Kelsey said.

More existing trains could also be put into service -- currently, 14 of 20 Canada Line trains are in operation. By the end of next summer, 16 will be running.

TransLink is optimistic the line's success might help fast-track other projects, like the long awaited Evergreen Line to Coquitlam. Despite being announced more than a decade ago, the $1.4-billion project remains stuck in the planning stage.

Minister of Transportation Shirley Bond said that the roaring success of the Canada Line has reinvigorated the province's interest in the Evergreen Line.

"We are far exceeding targets that were expected and I can assure you it gives us renewed motivation to build the Evergreen Line," she told CTV News.

With a report from CTV British Columbia's Stephen Smart
Source: http://www.ctvbc.ctv.ca/servlet/an/l...shColumbiaHome
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  #42  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2010, 2:20 AM
WBC WBC is offline
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This all just makes a super clear case that Broadway extension should be sky train and nothing else. They should just stop the retarded "studies" about trams and get with it. What are you going to do when this city has 3 or 4 mill people? Run 3 level trams?
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  #43  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2010, 2:20 AM
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Quote:
"We're going to be doing a review here in the not-too-distant future, and as part of that review we'll be looking at what adjustments can we make around the frequency between trains," Kelsey said.

More existing trains could also be put into service -- currently, 14 of 20 Canada Line trains are in operation. By the end of next summer, 16 will be running.
It's almost as if Kelsey were describing a driver-operated system.

It's an automated system for god's sake! And there are 6 trains not in use!
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  #44  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2010, 2:47 AM
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Comments from the Vancouver Sun section:


Cunctator
11:39 PM on June 1, 2010

I get on at Yaletown heading for City Centre and it's jam packed most mornings around 8am. If they ran every 3 minutes instead of 4, like they did at peak times during the Olympics, this would greatly alleviate the problem. There have been a couple of occasions recently where I have thought, I'll catch the next train instead, so dread to think what it'll be like by this time 2011.


local boy
12:48 AM on June 2, 2010

The answer is simple, return the suburban bus routes to their original downtown stops. Stop redirecting them to Bridgeport until the crowding is solved. I'd bet most suburban riders would approve of this, and this buys Translink time to figure out the next move. Win, Win!




csunz
1:41 AM on June 2, 2010

How does Translink come up with their (inaccurate) predictions?

Fact is the Canada Line goes across Vancouver north to south and vice versa. To funnel all the suburb riders onto SkyTrain meant Translink would have a good estimate of how many would (be forced to) take the train.

Canada Line also goes up Cambie Street which means Vancouverites who live near the line will be more inclined to use it. Canada Line was built in a developed city, unlike the Expo Line which was built when the suburbs were expanding.

Now, why the hell did Translink build a line which they cannot expand capacity easily such as adding an extra couple of cars like the Expo and Millennium Line? They will need to spend more money to reconstruct each station to allow for this. Is this a case of maximizing profits for P3s?

Also, what's with Canada Line running every 12 or more minutes in the evening from Richmond? This was never the case for the Expo Line and it was virtually empty in the evenings back in the early 90s. T






anonymous
2:57 AM on June 2, 2010

What a load of rubbish. Take a look at the Canada Line train at either end of the line on any peak hour you like and you'll find that people are taking it several stations the wrong way just so they can be sure to be on it when it heads in the other direction. The only alternative for these people is to watch packed trains pass them by.
Personally, I take the train from Brighouse to Bridgeport and get off so I can get an empty Airport train downtown - but there are so many people doing that now, it usually still means you're standing wedged between people all the way in.
And let's be clear - this isn't about people whining that they can't get a seat, it's about people having to watch train doors open and close without being able to squeeze on, because for whatever reason, Translink has 4 of it's 20 trains (20% of the fleet!) sitting unused at peak hour times.
Why not just use the trains already? They paid for them, they don't need to pay a driver - just let us on the damn things.





Gummivore
8:41 AM on June 2, 2010

say .... what happened to all those people who predicted this line will run empty for years .... oh yeah, the same people who gripped about how much of a failure the olympics will be.




Helen Highwater
10:52 AM on June 2, 2010

Well that was rather poor planning wasn't it. I guess the planners really don't understand how many people want to use public transportation when it is made available.




McMillan84

1:49 PM on June 2, 2010

When I read the opening sentence I couldn't help but be thrilled then disgusted. I was thrilled that so many people were using the Canada line but then I was disgusted when I saw that they expected this to happen in 3 years. Three years! Are you serious? How bloody short sighted is that? That's not even a full term for dictator Campbell. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to realize that if it's going to be at capacity in three years to build the line bigger to accommodate more people. I don't think there is anything that was done correctly with this line.




anonymous
3:15 PM on June 2, 2010

The RAV line was poorly designed right from the start. The platforms are too small, which makes adding longer trains impossible, thus crippling later expansion to meet increased demand. Why was this system designed this way? One reason: profit margins. Just imagine how inadequate the RAV line will be in five years... almost useless. The answer is light rail, above ground, which can be built for 1/3 of the cost. Engineering problems should not be at the whim of any politician (i.e. Campbell demanding a subway to be built) ... but rather by technical people who are experts in their fields.











And then, we have zwei:

Evil Eye
10:35 AM on June 2, 2010

Gee Whiz, I see that the BC Government subsidizes SkyTrain by over $230 million annually, how can it pay its operating costs?

Only 9,300 riders a day going to and from the airport daily, doesn't look like the 200,000 car trips taken off the road daily isn't going to happen too soon.

We tried using the Canada Line for commuting, but it increased our travel times so much that using the car is much faster, easier and is only a little more expensive.



Evil Eye
1:26 PM on June 2, 2010

This comment is hidden because you have chosen to ignore Evil Eye. Show DetailsHide Details

So we have spent about $2.5 billion on a metro, which is at capacity when it hits 100,000 passengers a day, yet Calgary has spent under $1 billion on light rail, which carries over 300,000 passengers a day.

No wonder BC is in massive deficit!

Isn't it interesting that TransLink doesn't say how many new (I repeat new) transit riders are because of the Canada line as it seems all what has happened is that we have forced bus riders onto the Canada Line and sing whoopee, its at capacity already, let's spend more money on transit!

No wonder we are the worlds laughing stock!

Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/t...#ixzz0pkpX6wBc




Canada Line Metro Reaches Capacity of 100,000 riders a day? Really, that little?

June 2, 2010 by zweisystem


Here we have a classic Vancouver Sun ‘puff story’ about the Canada line, where real questions are not asked and $150 thousand a year man, the classic spin doctor himself, Ken Hardie shows why he is paid such a stipend.

The real question should be; “We just spent $2.5 billion on a metro and its capacity is a mere 100,000 a day, what bloody genius thought that one up?”

It seems only in Vancouver, metro systems pay their operating costs with such little ridership and one wonders why more cities don’t built subways? The answer of course is that they don’t and the entire article is one of stuff an nonsenses, that should have been printed on April 1, not June 1!

What the article does show is that TransLink is desperate for positive spin on the Canada Line and the Sun will print it almost verbatim what the highly paid TransLink spin-doctors claim.

Certainly Hardie, doesn’t say how many bus riders are funneled onto the Canada Line, nor how TransLink apportions fares, if they even bother to or how TransLink factors in the deep discounted U-Pass used by Langara and UBC bound students, very important calculations that must be done before any claims of “paying its operating costs“, can be made. Certainly the claim that SkyTrain pays its operating costs is laughable because the province subsidizes the proprietary metro to a tune of over $230 million annually!

What is not surprising is the weak ridership numbers that go to YVR, which are in line with what other transit systems servicing airports carry.

The quote: “Hardie didn’t have a total count of how many new riders are taking the train……” is TransLink speak for, “The Canada Line is getting over 90% of its ridership from bus riders.” It must be remembered that 80% of SkyTrain’s customers first take a bus to the metro. In effect, we are giving bus riders a $2.5 billion metro ride, which for many, increases travel times.

What this story is all about is TransLink’s desire to build more metro and to fool the public in thinking that metro is doing a wonderful job, so let’s fund the Evergreen Line and the Broadway – UBC subway.

The sad fact is, if LRT were to have been built instead, it would be carrying more passengers to more destinations at a far cheaper cost; but of course no one would ever hear that from TransLink. 100,000 passengers a day is child’s play for LRT, yet it seems a big strain for a very expensive metro costing three times as much!

It is high time for BC Auditor General to audit TransLink and its metro operations to get at the real truth!






I think someone needs to write a really good letter to the editor or editorial to the Vancouver Sun about why the Canada Line is a good example for why Broadway and Evergreen must be SkyTrain. Sometimes, don't you just wish that zwei was some deer on a highway?...step on the gas.

Last edited by mr.x; Jun 3, 2010 at 3:01 AM.
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  #45  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2010, 5:41 AM
aberdeen5698 aberdeen5698 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by excel View Post
What happens in 2020 when the line is at capacity for trains and passengers?
Translink buys another 20 trainsets to double the capacity of the line.
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  #46  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2010, 5:45 AM
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Originally Posted by aberdeen5698 View Post
Translink buys another 20 trainsets to double the capacity of the line.
...but then decides to use only 10 of those new trains.
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  #47  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2010, 8:03 AM
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Quote:
Here we have a classic Vancouver Sun ‘puff story’ about the Canada line, where real questions are not asked and $150 thousand a year man, the classic spin doctor himself, Ken Hardie shows why he is paid such a stipend.

The real question should be; “We just spent $2.5 billion on a metro and its capacity is a mere 100,000 a day, what bloody genius thought that one up?”
This quote from zweisystem is exactly the reason why I was so irate with the original newspaper article. The Canada Line's capacity is well beyond 100,000, with only 20 2-car trains. I think that if all 20 trains were in service, the actual capacity would be close to 200,000. I think someone on this board estimated thay by adding the 10-metre extension to each double-car, and doubling the number of cars in service, the capacity would be over 400,000. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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  #48  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2010, 8:21 AM
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What is the ultimate capacity of the OMC for the Canada line with A-C-B train sets, and what is the max in service trains possible with maximum headway possible?
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  #49  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2010, 8:43 AM
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Quote:
I get on at Yaletown heading for City Centre and it's jam packed most mornings around 8am. If they ran every 3 minutes instead of 4, like they did at peak times during the Olympics, this would greatly alleviate the problem. There have been a couple of occasions recently where I have thought, I'll catch the next train instead, so dread to think what it'll be like by this time 2011.
Now I realize that some people may find it difficult walking. So assuming this person does not have trouble walking.

Why don't they just walk from Yaletown to City Centre.
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  #50  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2010, 3:00 PM
WarrenC12 WarrenC12 is offline
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All this tells me is that the Canada Line was a massive success compared to the last line built, the M-Line.

We can jam this ridership into the naysayer's faces, and hindsight is always 20/20, but we would never have gotten something with M-Line station sizes built. Period.

This just shows that rapid transit is popular, and should be a priority. And hopefully Translink has learned something about negotiating P3 contracts.

I've been on the C-line more lately since I'm very close to Yaletown station. It's busy during rush hour, big surprise. I've never been passed up at any station. mr. x your panic doesn't help.
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  #51  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2010, 4:18 PM
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By running trains at 2 minute frequencies on the main line and having an A-C-B configuration, we could reach 14,000 ppphd. The current capacity is just a bit above 5,700 ppphd. The Expo Line from Columbia to Waterfront is currently at 16,000+ ppphd.
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  #52  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2010, 5:26 PM
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If they just had 30 train sets and operated with 10% spares . that would 27-28 trains in service & about sub 3 min headways. this would satisfy capacity needs for quite a while.

Shirley Bond & the senior people @ translik need to sit down and dealwith a long term funding model that will allow proper setvice levels throughout the system.

Zwei will never support skytrain tpye technology he is totally in love with Light Rail
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  #53  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2010, 5:38 PM
aberdeen5698 aberdeen5698 is offline
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Originally Posted by DKaz View Post
By running trains at 2 minute frequencies on the main line and having an A-C-B configuration, we could reach 14,000 ppphd.
With the current stations, that would require a substantial overhang at each end with some of the doors programmed to remain closed. Do any existing systems actually do this? It seems like there would be a safety issue if the train had to be evacuated in an emergency.
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  #54  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2010, 6:07 PM
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Most cities should only hope to have this problem, so any rapid transit nearing its design capacity bodes well for mass transit in general. Having said that they should have built for 3-car capacity.

Edmonton did the same thing when opening up its South LRT branch a few years ago. A few of the recently opened stations (Health Campus, I believe and possibly South Campus) were only constructed for 4-car service, although the rest of the line can in theory (platform/station design, not electrical capacity which is the main probelm right now) handle 5-car trains. The city said they are hoping to upgrade the system this summer, but still.
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  #55  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2010, 7:07 PM
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Building mini-platforms with "toy" trains of two cars was a bit silly, even despite the cost predictions. If you're going to do something, do it right.

However, we're stuck with it, and rather than sceaming that the sky is falling, it seems a much more logical option to buy - however many - four? six? eight? -new trains and increase the capacity, and the frequency that way. Two minutes between trains is not uncommon in many European cities.

Ce n'est pas une situation incontournable. Il reste quand-même des solutions pratiques et pas affreusement chères.
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  #56  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2010, 7:07 PM
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As many people have said many many times before in this thread, but doesn't seem to be sinking in with some, the number of trains and platform sizes are largely a political decision.

As a politician knows they can never please all of the people, it's far better to have the complaints be "There are not enough trains! Buy More!" than have the complaints be "Why did the government waste so much money buying all of these half-empty trains!?"

One scenario is easier to solve and makes you more popular.
The other scenario is much harder to solve and it's unclear whether it will make you more popular.

The money to pay for these things will come and go - you raise taxes, you cut services, but that's still political.
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  #57  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2010, 7:34 PM
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The line being 2-car "toy trains" is not the problem. The frequency is the problem and the solution. Until the frequency has increased to match Expo Line, we should be looking at adding more trains. Frequent trains are more convenient than longer trains, and there is no need to pay for larger stations until much later. We just need to get an order in for more trains in the near future (given there will probably be a 3-year wait time). An announcement in 2013 for the election would be fine.
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  #58  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2010, 7:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Zassk View Post
The line being 2-car "toy trains" is not the problem. The frequency is the problem and the solution. Until the frequency has increased to match Expo Line, we should be looking at adding more trains. Frequent trains are more convenient than longer trains, and there is no need to pay for larger stations until much later. We just need to get an order in for more trains in the near future (given there will probably be a 3-year wait time). An announcement in 2013 for the election would be fine.
In essence that's what I said in my post: buy more trains and increase the frequency. However, I think you're exactly right.
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  #59  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2010, 7:52 PM
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Whoa Whoa whoa people..

"The SkyTrain is falling! The SkyTrain is falling!"

First of all... IIRC, I believe Translink did not expect it to be at capacity in 2013, they expected it to reach its 100,000 ridership levels in 2013. Very different ideas.

Thus, they made an agreement that staged new trains into the system.

BCPhil made the best ( and hilarious ) comment, that trains don't run on Unicorn farts.

Every km a train travels is one km closer to its next scheduled maintenance. Automated trains have strict maintenance schedules.

I think the P3 is an advantage in this case. Translink can deflect criticism onto the Private partner. I think they can handle the media better in this case, personally. Simply asking the public if they'd like to raise taxes to pay the private partner to run more trains would quell a lot of criticism.

The line only seems to be at capacity because we're not running all the trains, as per the agreement. It's not like we have to order and wait for trains. We know when relief will come and unless the public wants Translink to start subsidizing extra riders, we don't need to pay more to run more trains.

Besides, this is a problem any transit agency would KILL to have. Getting people used to not being guaranteed a seat from the beginning will also make people more open to future options like transverse seating that flips up during the rush.

Doesn't anyone remember when all the pundits were saying that 100,000 was an extremely optimistic number for a new line and that we'd have Translink paying RavCo for the extra ridership?

Be happy people. We'll cope. It's only 12 months away.
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  #60  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2010, 9:34 PM
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Originally Posted by cabotp View Post
Now I realize that some people may find it difficult walking. So assuming this person does not have trouble walking.

Why don't they just walk from Yaletown to City Centre.
Agreed, but don't knock'em - TransLink would make the most money off people riding one stop! ... unless they have a pass.
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