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  #81  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2014, 2:00 PM
MusicMan84 MusicMan84 is offline
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Snooze. Fest.
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  #82  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2014, 3:24 PM
Philly Fan Philly Fan is offline
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Originally Posted by MusicMan84 View Post
Snooze. Fest.
Definitely.

I suppose it's a question of cost, but the previous design would have made a dramatic statement about the neighborhood and its community (and the entire city, actually). The revised design is a major step down in that regard, and quite disappointing by comparison.
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  #83  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2014, 3:26 PM
VikingDutchman VikingDutchman is offline
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sigh...

The original would have been great. This is just... a boring too short building with some big empty space around it.
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  #84  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2014, 4:19 PM
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SJBadger SJBadger is offline
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I loved the original design. This is a major disappointment.
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  #85  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2014, 6:23 PM
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Cro Burnham Cro Burnham is offline
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This is fine. Simple, blends into the background. Clearly alot cheaper, which it needed to be given all the subsidy it will require.

And we'll be lucky if they can pull this off at all, so there's not alot of point in whining about it.
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  #86  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2014, 6:58 PM
3rd&Brown 3rd&Brown is offline
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It looks like a Ramada Inn on Rt 70 in Marlton.

I'd rather they build nothing at all.

I'm not one of those people who thinks every project needs to be stunning, nor am I a person who thinks Philadelphia should build anything at any cost because it's better than nothing...

But this is just TERRIBLE.

My farts are more interesting than this.
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  #87  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2014, 7:12 PM
jsbrook jsbrook is offline
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I don't have as much of an issue with the design here as some. But I agree it's a real downgrade. Disappointing. I'd still rather it get built than not, and the downgrade was probably necessary to make the numbers work.
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  #88  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2014, 9:41 PM
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josef josef is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown View Post
It looks like a Ramada Inn on Rt 70 in Marlton.
Hey, at least there's a sidewalk that goes somewhere in front of this building.
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  #89  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2014, 9:59 PM
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summersm343 summersm343 is offline
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This design is lame compared to the original. However, this project will still be huge for the area. Maybe someone can scoop the design and use it for another project elsewhere? haha
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  #90  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2014, 9:59 PM
Insoluble Insoluble is offline
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While I agree that the new rendering is disappointing compared with the original design, keep in mind the context of the area in which this is being built. There are dozens of surface parking lots surrounding this, and the only other relatively modern looking tower with any sort of prominence is Goldtext. Unlike the snoozefest being built at 1919 Market, this will actually have a pretty big impact for its size. I'll take a relatively bland 20 story building over a surface lot in this location any day.

Edit: Summers beat me to it!

Last edited by Insoluble; Nov 13, 2014 at 10:00 PM. Reason: post colision
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  #91  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2014, 10:15 PM
allovertown allovertown is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown View Post
It looks like a Ramada Inn on Rt 70 in Marlton.

I'd rather they build nothing at all.

I'm not one of those people who thinks every project needs to be stunning, nor am I a person who thinks Philadelphia should build anything at any cost because it's better than nothing...

But this is just TERRIBLE.

My farts are more interesting than this.
Really???

Just a reminder. THIS is what the view shown in the renderings looks like now:


This isn't exactly a tony corner. In case you can't realize from the rendering the little public plaza in the foreground sits atop the vine street expressway.

If you walk out the front door of this place that little plaza will be in front of you to the left but then to the right is the highway sound barrier for 676!!!

10th street is one of the main corridors through Chinatown and yet starting at wood street and then heading south down to winter street, there is not a single residence or place of business. There is nothing but parking lots, highway barriers and a the mostly blank windowless wall of a catholic school.

Do you really think that we'd be better off if they didn't build a 21 story tower interjecting people and businesses and a community center and a pulse to this part of china town?

Just ridiculous. Go walk down there at 11PM on Tuesday and tell me if you really think we'd be better off with nothing here.

Don't mean to be harsh. But some of this criticism is just unwarranted and not in touch with reality. This is still a great project.

Also while the design is a huge step back from the super ambitious original, everyone knew from the get-go that the design was totally improbable to ever happen and way too ambitious. This design doesn't come close to that but it is far above anything in marlton nj. depending on the materials used I think could look great.

If it didn't start out with such unrealistic initial rendering people would be a lot less disappointed now. This design is not as good as the first one, but it's still far from terrible.

EDIT: everyone beat me to it
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  #92  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2014, 10:23 PM
iheartphilly iheartphilly is offline
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The most significant change in the design is that they removed the "raised" panels of the look of the building. The shape of the building is really left untouched. I agree that with the right exterior mix of glass and other material to clad the building, it should look good. Who knows, this might not be the final rendering since we do not know if it was signed off or not.
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  #93  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2014, 10:33 PM
TallCoolOne TallCoolOne is offline
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Curious... what did the Chinese lettering going down the side mean??

They should bring that back... I liked it for some reason.

我真的很喜歡它!(I really liked it).
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  #94  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2014, 10:45 PM
McBane McBane is offline
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This new design is UGLY!

But, let's look at the context here. If this was the original design, we'd all say boring but hey better than a parking lot. I think a lot of the disappointment comes from the fact that we've been teased by a really gorgeous design only to be let down.

For me, this is better than a parking lot yes, but on the other hand, the "better than a parking lot" thing is getting a bit old. Toss this in the pile along with Southstart, the new courthouse, 1919 Market, 1900 Arch, and the Homes2Suites.

EDIT: To add that this Chinatown project is not 19th and Market where I personally think that something bigger and better could be built. Yes it's bland, but 10th and Vine is not an obvious choice for the next big tower or even a tower period. There's a ton of parking lots in this area and the demand isn't such that we can expect all of them to be developed into high rises.

Last edited by McBane; Nov 13, 2014 at 10:59 PM.
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  #95  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2014, 2:32 AM
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philatonian philatonian is offline
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No! Why couldn't they have just shortened the building and kept the original design if they wanted to make it smaller? The original design was so cool.
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  #96  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2014, 12:24 PM
ConstructStudent ConstructStudent is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philatonian View Post
No! Why couldn't they have just shortened the building and kept the original design if they wanted to make it smaller? The original design was so cool.
The original design was around $6 million more than this design. If you were to just shrink the building the original design would not have a WOW factor that it did before.
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  #97  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2014, 2:49 PM
Insoluble Insoluble is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McBane View Post
This new design is UGLY!

But, let's look at the context here. If this was the original design, we'd all say boring but hey better than a parking lot. I think a lot of the disappointment comes from the fact that we've been teased by a really gorgeous design only to be let down.

For me, this is better than a parking lot yes, but on the other hand, the "better than a parking lot" thing is getting a bit old. Toss this in the pile along with Southstart, the new courthouse, 1919 Market, 1900 Arch, and the Homes2Suites.

EDIT: To add that this Chinatown project is not 19th and Market where I personally think that something bigger and better could be built. Yes it's bland, but 10th and Vine is not an obvious choice for the next big tower or even a tower period. There's a ton of parking lots in this area and the demand isn't such that we can expect all of them to be developed into high rises.
Pretty much agree with this whole post 100%, but the bold part in particular is so true. I think that if we had never been presented with the original renderings we would all have nothing but positive things to say about this. We are comparing this to a fairy tail rendering instead of the reality of what is there in the here and now. With this, Goldtext, and several other smaller scale developments going on North of Vine, it's only a matter of time before the area fills out and we start to see more dynamic proposals that are actually viable.
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  #98  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2014, 3:16 PM
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Cro Burnham Cro Burnham is offline
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I never understand why developers come up with unaffordable designs like the original for this building. It was so over the top for essentially low / mod income housing and acommunity center. There's no one to pay for design frills when you're begging for construction subsidies from every corner of government.
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  #99  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2014, 3:49 PM
iheartphilly iheartphilly is offline
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Well then, this is a case of...a developer's damned if you do, and damned if you don't. LOL.

I like to think the EB-5 game plan got a lukewarm response from overseas investors. If the EB-5 was robust, I think they could of stuck to the original design.
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  #100  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2014, 5:01 PM
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Cro Burnham Cro Burnham is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartphilly View Post
Well then, this is a case of...a developer's damned if yo. The puu do, and damned if you don't. LOL.

I like to think the EB-5 game plan got a lukewarm response from overseas investors. If the EB-5 was robust, I think they could of stuck to the original design.
As far as I understand Philly's EB-5 program, it mainly serves as a very low cost construction lending program. Essentially, I think the EB-5 investors are not in an individual project after permanent financing kicks in.

So I don't think lukewarm EB-5 interest makes a big difference here beyond its impact or lack thereof on reducing interest expense during construction.

High construction costs need to be paid back via debt service on permanent financing.

This requires sufficient NOI. Insufficient NOI? Then you have to reduce perm financing. Therefore you have to cut project costs or get more government grants for construction which are in very short supply.

I don't think EB-5 is the driving factor here. But I may well be wrong.
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