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  #41  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2014, 2:34 PM
Insoluble Insoluble is offline
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Originally Posted by Kidphilly View Post
As much as I like this new tower from the 2nd floor up, Inga is absolutely on point here. This thing makes absolutely no attempt to integrate itself with the neighborhoods to the east. Granted the Naval Square development right next to this already kills a lot of the urbanity leading up to the waterfront, but this development would completely finish the job. I'm really hoping they reconsider their site plan after Civic Design Review.

This also points out the need for improved public transportation options around here.
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  #42  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2014, 2:49 PM
Kidphilly Kidphilly is offline
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Originally Posted by Insoluble View Post
As much as I like this new tower from the 2nd floor up, Inga is absolutely on point here. This thing makes absolutely no attempt to integrate itself with the neighborhoods to the east. Granted the Naval Square development right next to this already kills a lot of the urbanity leading up to the waterfront, but this development would completely finish the job. I'm really hoping they reconsider their site plan after Civic Design Review.

This also points out the need for improved public transportation options around here.
agreed (on really all your points)

Am wondering if the opportunity exists to plan for a PT option that leverages a lot of existing underground/dedicated ROW - like a new Light Rail line that could use the current rail ROW from 30th - this could also be planned to incorporate into any rail yard development/improvements above 30th - and potentially link to the Zoo and along Fairmont out to Bala replacing the current RRR line there

with links to basically all PT at 30th, the girard trolly at Girard - and potentially extending down to the new proposed South bank development in Point Breeze (plan and build the PT infrastructure now or even further like back to the DE but still we need to start planning on how to link these new potential job and growth areas for the future)

In theory this line could split at Girard to the other side of the river and use the Pennsy row back toward the Art Museum area or even into the loft district and around to Ind Mall etc.
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  #43  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2014, 3:18 PM
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It's such an amazingly drastic difference seeing how European cities treat their rivers compared to American ones. I wonder if any of these developers even go over there to see it.
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  #44  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2014, 3:29 PM
MusicMan84 MusicMan84 is offline
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Notably, the University City rail stop is a short walk across the south Street bridge...
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  #45  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2014, 3:58 PM
Philly Fan Philly Fan is offline
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It's such an amazingly drastic difference seeing how European cities treat their rivers compared to American ones. I wonder if any of these developers even go over there to see it.
No need to go to Europe--just head to American cities like San Antonio (Google San Antonio River Walk if you're unfamiliar with it).
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  #46  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2014, 4:53 PM
blorkishdork blorkishdork is offline
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I second that opinion Kidphilly, especially the need for better public transportation in the area and the city as a whole. I think it is time for the city & septa actually look into how to expand our transportation network, specifically our subway network. With a growing job center around the hospitals and the vertical expansion of the callowhill neighborhood (between vine and spring garden streets). It makes sense to expand rail service to serve these growing areas.

I'm not saying build it right away, but at least plan for the future. Even a quick little line from 30th street to the medical center would do wonders for traffic in the area or expanding patco (first making it part of septa....) into west philly via spruce or south into graduate hospital via graysferry would be a huge improvement for the cities transit infrastructure! The city drastically need to put a plan together for the future otherwise we'll continue to have more and more parking garages for office buildings and residential buildings not within a few blocks of the BSL and MFL.
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  #47  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2014, 5:27 PM
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No need to go to Europe--just head to American cities like San Antonio (Google San Antonio River Walk if you're unfamiliar with it).
That's true. Providence does well with its river too, actually. I forgot about that one. Waterfire there pulls in tons of people.
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  #48  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2014, 6:49 PM
ichigo ichigo is offline
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So, from what I gather, there is some sort of approval meeting on April 1st? Any idea when Phase 1 is planned to begin (if approved)?
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  #49  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2014, 7:36 PM
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summersm343 summersm343 is offline
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So, from what I gather, there is some sort of approval meeting on April 1st? Any idea when Phase 1 is planned to begin (if approved)?
This summer.
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  #50  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2014, 4:41 PM
Kidphilly Kidphilly is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Insoluble View Post
As much as I like this new tower from the 2nd floor up, Inga is absolutely on point here. This thing makes absolutely no attempt to integrate itself with the neighborhoods to the east. Granted the Naval Square development right next to this already kills a lot of the urbanity leading up to the waterfront, but this development would completely finish the job. I'm really hoping they reconsider their site plan after Civic Design Review.

This also points out the need for improved public transportation options around here.
So taking this on a rainy day I decided to create my own new Fantasy map to tie new potential infrastructure and job centers (UCity/30th St Railyard/CHOP S Street/South Bank). In addition a loop in Center City; extension on Columbus Blvd and us of the Pennsy Cut.

My grand plan (fantasy) also has extensions as follows:

Parkside Ave and an extension of the Bala RR Line (only now Light rail) through the park to Bala and using the existing bridge to terminate in Manyunk on Main Street.

Another that extends from the Pennsy cut at Girard up 33rd street to eventually use the Chestnut Hill West RR Row to make thi line from RR to Light Rail.

There is also an extension of the same line as above through CC (on Market) and north on Columbus to Girard.

The loop would include either the Bala/Manyunk extension (terminate at Market/Columbus) or the CH West to Girard Line which would run through the Pennsy Cut and down Market to Columbus.

The Loop would run across the Girard bridge over to the zoo.

There would be new key stops to include potentially:

Attractions
Zoo
Art Museum(Prison)
Parkway (Barnes/Franklin Inst)
Mann
ME/RTM/Conv Center
Independence Mall
Penns Landing
Italian Market
(Potentially Reading Viaduct which it will use)


Job Centers
30th Street
ME
Ind Mall
South Street (Both ends)
South Banks
Loft District (To me to be a zoned development site)

Nabes Linked
U City
Parkside
Bala
Manyunk
CH West
Fishtown/No Libs
De River Waterfront
ME
Old City
QV Pennsport
Bella Vista/Passyunk Sq
Point Breeze/GHo
etc.

Subway/Trolly/CR Links
30th Street
Broad
Federal/Ellsworth
Market
Market East
Girard (Both ends)
Spring Garden (but see no reason to directly connect)


It would also leverage a fair amount of exiting Higher speed ROW to include:

Pennsy Cut
30th Street Railyard and extension to South Bank
Fairmount Park (Both sides)
Bala RR Line
CH West RR Line
Columbus Ave Median

It would have both visitor site seeing benefits and job center benefits

I could see each line runnin peak on 15 minute headways; making for 5-10 (max) headways in the core loop. Also could see this as being a 21 hour line (esp on weekends to help better serve core areas.

Just one mans rainy day Fantasy but the more I think of this the more I really how this would significantly enhance PT options in the core

So here it is

<iframe style="height: 270px; width: 450px;" src="http://www.mapquest.com/embed?hk=P4uwaW" marginwidth="0" marginheight="0" frameborder="0" scrolling="no"></iframe>

http://mapq.st/P4uwaW
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  #51  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2014, 10:47 AM
Insoluble Insoluble is offline
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I like the concept. This does a nice job of linking some heavily populated central neighborhoods with the job centers in University City. The only two critiques I can think of are 1) this makes use of a portion of the Reading Viaduct East of Broad that is slated to become a park, and 2) Wouldn't Washington Ave make more sense than Elsworth and Federal? You could still easily make a connection with the BSL and the right of way is much wider which I imagine would make construction easier. Great plan though! I wish we had the money and leadership top make something like this happen.
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  #52  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2014, 12:23 PM
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Delete.
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  #53  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2014, 2:20 PM
Kidphilly Kidphilly is offline
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Originally Posted by Insoluble View Post
I like the concept. This does a nice job of linking some heavily populated central neighborhoods with the job centers in University City. The only two critiques I can think of are 1) this makes use of a portion of the Reading Viaduct East of Broad that is slated to become a park, and 2) Wouldn't Washington Ave make more sense than Elsworth and Federal? You could still easily make a connection with the BSL and the right of way is much wider which I imagine would make construction easier. Great plan though! I wish we had the money and leadership top make something like this happen.

I thought about Washington - the more I think about it I think Fed/Els may actually work better for street LRT - Wash is sort of commercial street for many trucks

Fed and Els would move pretty well - in theory you could add lights synced for flow of the rail - biggest rub is these are residential streets mostly.

On the Eastern side of the Pennsy, I think half could still be park and preserve the dedicated row.

If you scroll down to first picture I believe this is the spur section toward Broad - wide enough for two tracks and an ample walking trail IMHO. The other side could be park (or even another potential route through the Loft district which could have some good TOD development opps basically from scratch.

I also think the airport line could be converted to use this ROW as well allowing for easier trunks out that way as well..

http://readingviaduct.org/
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  #54  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2014, 2:54 PM
blorkishdork blorkishdork is offline
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The problem with putting a light-rail down Federal and Ellsworth is that Ellsworth doesn't go all the way through. It becomes a very small street east of Passyunk and disappears entirely at the parks that are bound by 5th, 3rd, Washington and Federal. There is a reason the 64 does not go on Ellsworth and Federal. Now if we are talking subgrade, we might be able to work something out. But above ground would not work on those streets. Plus Washington ave is changing from a contractor's area (mostly west of broad) to a mix of apartments offices and shops and is a wider street and would be able to accommodate the added traffic. Light-rail would add a lot to Washington Ave and would make it much more appealing to more than just the Vietnamese immigrants currently inhabiting the block.
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  #55  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2014, 3:06 PM
Kidphilly Kidphilly is offline
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The problem with putting a light-rail down Federal and Ellsworth is that Ellsworth doesn't go all the way through. It becomes a very small street east of Passyunk and disappears entirely at the parks that are bound by 5th, 3rd, Washington and Federal. There is a reason the 64 does not go on Ellsworth and Federal. Now if we are talking subgrade, we might be able to work something out. But above ground would not work on those streets. Plus Washington ave is changing from a contractor's area (mostly west of broad) to a mix of apartments offices and shops and is a wider street and would be able to accommodate the added traffic. Light-rail would add a lot to Washington Ave and would make it much more appealing to more than just the Vietnamese immigrants currently inhabiting the block.

Fair - though tried to re-configure the route using street that flow through

And Washington could work as well IMHO - just sort of thought but obviously nothing set in stone - even in my own head which is a far as this proposal has gone

And well I quite like the Pho there on Washington

Cant imagine submerged TBH


I actually do like the concept and think it could be very beneficial - but that and a couple of bucks only really gets a cup of coffee...
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  #56  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2014, 4:14 PM
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summersm343 summersm343 is offline
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This thread will now only be about the first phase of the CHOP Schuylkill Ave complex which will be 23 floors at 375 feet. Any future phases will have a new thread created for them when they are officially announced.
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  #57  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2014, 2:25 AM
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summersm343 summersm343 is offline
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Article on this from the Philadelphia Business Journal:

http://www.bizjournals.com/philadelp...new-tower.html
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  #58  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2014, 3:49 PM
Mappy Mappy is offline
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Between the CHOP blight-wall, the CSX derailment(s), and the many other development proposals along the Schuylkill - It's probably time to make some bigger picture planning decisions about the various modes of transport along the river here, and how to design for a future with them in mind. The 2012(?) Ed Bacon Competition even evoked this challenge, however most submissions seemed to take a myopic approach to just the 30th St station area and/or I-76.

At the crux of all this is the CSX/Conrail and Amtrak lines coming in and out of a compact area, using bridges that are in need of maintenance, and ROWs that Amtrak would like to improve, relocate, realign, or widen for higher speed and high capacity travel.

Looking out http://www.dvrpc.org/webmaps/phillyfreightfinder/# there are basically 4 main routes in/out of the city (Delair, Trenton, Harrisburg, and Wilmington), but there are redundant lines for freight on either side of the Schuylkill. the El through UCity, and the CSX on the eastern banks (next to proposed CHOP).

Im thinking if the City mediated the benefits to each Rail companies and got other fed/state funds they could build these three connections in Yellow and allow for the removal of freight use from all of the lines in Red.

Tell me if Im missing something, but I think all the areas that use freight still have access, Amtrak and SEPTA could get some additional space in NE Philly, 25th St El could be razed or retrofitted for transit, and the eastern banks of the Schuylkill could be cleared for Much improved open space access or re-purposed for trolleys or other transit, but either way opening things up for the new CHOP design, Riverwalk, Penn's expansion area. There would also be three old rail bridges that could be tied into the trail system.

Let me know what you think.



Note the lines only indicate freight use. Obviously there are lots of other rail lines in the area, some of which overlap with these ROWs

Last edited by Mappy; Apr 1, 2014 at 4:26 PM.
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  #59  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2014, 6:03 PM
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josef josef is offline
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Originally Posted by Mappy View Post
Between the CHOP blight-wall, the CSX derailment(s), and the many other development proposals along the Schuylkill - It's probably time to make some bigger picture planning decisions about the various modes of transport along the river here, and how to design for a future with them in mind.
Definitely agree, especially if we're going to start getting North Dakota shipments coming through now too.

To be honest, I don't know all that much about freight movements through the city, beyond "hey the 25th Street viaduct is crumbling" and "those freight trains get in the way of the Schuykill River Trail". Why is there duplication of tracks both west and east of the Schuykill there? One of those is the highline and one is the tracks that run parallel to the river trail, right? I know they're both used, but I'm not sure in what capacity. Does the 25th Street viaduct really just send trains south to the refineries?

I'm also wondering what effect this'll have on passenger traffic. Does it positively affect Amtrak/SEPTA/NJTransit traffic entering and leaving the city just by getting freight out of the way? If so, awesome. I wonder if it would facilitate faster Amtrak service in particular, since that's a big goal of theirs over the coming decades.

Can the green lines take on the extra capacity that might be necessary once freight is shifted over from the red ones? I imagine if it negatively affected their throughput, they'd do all they could to fight against it.

Annoyingly, I have more questions than anything, but I love the idea of getting freight trains out of the densest parts of the city, possibly for inclusion as part of new passenger service. In a dream world, I'd like to see SEPTA improve rail access along as many ROWs as it can in the city, especially because it's hard to go diagonal via a one-seat side here. Overall really interesting, I would be interested in hearing the pros and cons of this and why it could or couldn't be done.
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  #60  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2014, 7:45 PM
ichigo ichigo is offline
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Does anybody know the decision of the planning committee yet? Did phase I get approved?
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