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  #41  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2013, 9:27 PM
saffronleaf saffronleaf is offline
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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
One can talk about every extenuating circumstance in the book or slice it 1000 different ways, but it doesn't change the fact that the Leafs are the only hockey team that's well supported. And comparing Toronto to other cities doesn't change the reality either. If 100,000 Torontonians attended CHL/NHL each weekend that would constitute good support. The Leafs at 19,000 and Mississauga bringing in 3,000 does not.

All I hear are reasons why attendance is POOR. That doesn't mean it's good, now does it? All you're showcasing is that poor support for sports isn't just a Toronto issue.
The Leafs are well supported (best supported hockey franchise in the world). The GTHL is the best development league in the world -- so participation in hockey is very high. It's just that intermediary leagues (like OHL and AHL) are not well supported.

Part of it might be the perception among Torontonians that Toronto is a 'major' city and people will only spend money on the 'big leagues.' Perhaps that also explains why the CFL is not supported in Toronto -- people consider it 'minor league' -- similar to AHL or OHL.

And attendance isn't the only way to determine support for the Leafs -- look at the high ticket prices, the nearly 100% season ticket renewal rate, the lengthy waitlist for prospective season ticket buyers, the massive TV ratings. There's a reason the CBC shows Leafs games in the prime time 7PM EST time slot every Saturday night while ignoring other Canadian teams. It's their crown jewel for TV ratings.

Plus, there's NBA and MLB in Toronto -- something other markets in Canada aren't familiar with / probably don't know of.
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  #42  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2013, 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by saffronleaf View Post
The Leafs are well supported (best supported hockey franchise in the world). The GTHL is the best development league in the world -- so participation in hockey is very high. It's just that intermediary leagues (like OHL and AHL) are not well supported.

Part of it might be the perception among Torontonians that Toronto is a 'major' city and people will only spend money on the 'big leagues.' Perhaps that also explains why the CFL is not supported in Toronto -- people consider it 'minor league' -- similar to AHL or OHL.

And attendance isn't the only way to determine support for the Leafs -- look at the high ticket prices, the nearly 100% season ticket renewal rate, the lengthy waitlist for prospective season ticket buyers, the massive TV ratings. There's a reason the CBC shows Leafs games in the prime time 7PM EST time slot every Saturday night while ignoring other Canadian teams. It's their crown jewel for TV ratings.

Plus, there's NBA and MLB in Toronto -- something other markets in Canada aren't familiar with / probably don't know of.
Pretty sure most sports fans outside the GTA are aware of the existence of the Blue Jays, Raptors, NBA and MLB.
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  #43  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2013, 2:30 AM
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Some CFL news: apparently David Braley isn't taking his CFL teams to the grave!

http://www.tsn.ca/cfl/story/?id=432325

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Current BC Lions and Toronto Argonauts owner David Braley told TSN's Dave Naylor he would like to sell at least one and maybe both of his teams in the next three years.

According to a report in the Hamilton Spectator, the 72-year-old Ontario Senator told supporters at a Progressive Conservative fundraiser in Hamilton that he will sell his two CFL franchises by the time he is 75.

Braley said he has seven people interested in buying the Lions and three people interested in the Argonauts. Selling the financially stable Lions will be easy but it could be a different story with the Argos, with the team still losing money.
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  #44  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2013, 3:49 PM
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Originally Posted by saffronleaf View Post
It's just that intermediary leagues (like OHL and AHL) are not well supported.
.
I don't know how many times I have to repeat that the Marlies have been one of the best supported teams in the AHL in the past few years....

I'll just repeat it.

The Marlies have been one of the best supported teams in the AHL the past few years.

The Marlies have been one of the best supported teams in the AHL the past few years.

The Marlies have been one of the best supported teams in the AHL the past few years.

This is such an annoying misconception that people seem to refuse to get into their heads.
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  #45  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2013, 4:26 PM
Allan83 Allan83 is offline
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Originally Posted by saffronleaf View Post
The Leafs are well supported (best supported hockey franchise in the world). The GTHL is the best development league in the world -- so participation in hockey is very high. It's just that intermediary leagues (like OHL and AHL) are not well supported.

Part of it might be the perception among Torontonians that Toronto is a 'major' city and people will only spend money on the 'big leagues.' Perhaps that also explains why the CFL is not supported in Toronto -- people consider it 'minor league' -- similar to AHL or OHL.
O dear again. The GTHL is the best development league in the world? How so? I doubt very much that it develops the most players on a per capita basis. Television ratings for the CFL are just as high in Toronto as they are elsewhere. This insecurity about being a “major league” really just exists within a certain subculture in Toronto, including the Toronto media. But world class cities have their own identities and they’re confident in them, and ironically the fact that this particular segment feels that it needs to cling to American cultural institutions to make itself feel “world class” only proves that it isn’t world class, because it doesn’t have an identity of its own.

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And attendance isn't the only way to determine support for the Leafs -- look at the high ticket prices, the nearly 100% season ticket renewal rate, the lengthy waitlist for prospective season ticket buyers, the massive TV ratings. There's a reason the CBC shows Leafs games in the prime time 7PM EST time slot every Saturday night while ignoring other Canadian teams. It's their crown jewel for TV ratings.
From my perspective putting the Leafs on at 5PM means that I never see them play. That’s too early for me. The prime time game at 8PM is generally when the Flames play (although truth be told I don’t watch much hockey anymore in any timeslot).
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  #46  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2013, 8:03 PM
saffronleaf saffronleaf is offline
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Originally Posted by Allan83 View Post
From my perspective putting the Leafs on at 5PM means that I never see them play. That’s too early for me. The prime time game at 8PM is generally when the Flames play (although truth be told I don’t watch much hockey anymore in any timeslot).
Haha, frankly, the mountain timezone is irrelevant.

If anyone has important programming, they put it at primetime in the Eastern timezone. This is the same in the US and Canada. It's all about the population.

Ontario and Quebec are in the eastern timezone; that's nearly 2/3rds of Canada. If you include the Atlantic timezone and NFLD, that amounts to more than 2/3rds.
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  #47  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2013, 8:25 PM
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Originally Posted by saffronleaf View Post
Haha, frankly, the mountain timezone is irrelevant.

If anyone has important programming, they put it at primetime in the Eastern timezone. This is the same in the US and Canada. It's all about the population.

Ontario and Quebec are in the eastern timezone; that's nearly 2/3rds of Canada. If you include the Atlantic timezone and NFLD, that amounts to more than 2/3rds.
If we are talking about HNIC here (which I assume we are), then the 2/3 of its market/target population being in Ontario and Quebec is seriously exaggerated.

Quebec is not a significant market for HNIC. On Saturday nights people in Quebec watch the Habs on RDS, as opposed to the Leafs on HNIC. HNIC might get a higher blip in Quebec and drain a few viewers away from RDS if they actually show the Habs, but if not their ratings are super-low here.
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  #48  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2013, 8:46 PM
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You and Acajack are mocking Toronto by suggesting that we would try to get a team in an American based sports league, MLC. The only alternative would be trying to create a Canadian cricket league from scratch, which would be a much larger endeavor and unlikely to succeed.
Why bother even trying, right? That's the spirit! At least this way Toronto will have a team while the rest of the country's cricket enthusiasts can go pound sand!

(I should point out that I'm being tongue-in-cheek on this... the MLC thing has been dead for years judging by the wiki page)

Last edited by esquire; Oct 16, 2013 at 8:57 PM.
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  #49  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2013, 8:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Ramako View Post
I genuinely hope it succeeds, but MLC is probably the safer bet.
Is that even a thing?

Judging by the fact the website hasn't been working since 2007 - I'm guessing no
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  #50  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2013, 9:08 PM
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Originally Posted by esquire View Post
Why bother even trying, right? That's the spirit! At least this way Toronto will have a team while the rest of the country's cricket enthusiasts can go pound sand!

I think it's very ambitious of this guy to try and start a league in Canada, and I genuinely hope he succeeds, but I certainly wouldn't blame him nor fans of cricket in Toronto for simply wanting to acquire a MLC franchise. The average Joe who watches cricket in Toronto isn't thinking about issues of national or civic identity. They're just thinking, "I wish I could watch good competitive cricket in my town." I don't buy the theory that Toronto prefers American leagues to Canadian leagues.
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  #51  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2013, 9:10 PM
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Originally Posted by FrankieFlowerpot View Post
Is that even a thing?

Judging by the fact the website hasn't been working since 2007 - I'm guessing no
I have no idea. esquire said it's starting from scratch, so perhaps they're re-launching.
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  #52  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2013, 9:12 PM
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Originally Posted by esquire View Post
(I should point out that I'm being tongue-in-cheek on this... the MLC thing has been dead for years judging by the wiki page)
Well, if a cricket league couldn't survive in the States, I'll be amazed if it survives in Canada, but godspeed to them.
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  #53  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2013, 9:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Ramako View Post
I think it's very ambitious of this guy to try and start a league in Canada, and I genuinely hope he succeeds, but I certainly wouldn't blame him nor fans of cricket in Toronto for simply wanting to acquire a MLC franchise. The average Joe who watches cricket in Toronto isn't thinking about issues of national or civic identity. They're just thinking, "I wish I could watch good competitive cricket in my town." I don't buy the theory that Toronto prefers American leagues to Canadian leagues.
I think Canadians in general prefer to belong in American leagues.

People from outside Toronto will criticize Toronto because, unlike Arctic outposts like Edmonton, Toronto actually has a chance of getting into American leagues.

That said, MLC is dead.

As a cricket fan, I've thought of how a T20 Cricket League could be done in North America. The only population centers with enough people from South Asia, England and Australia that could support a team with a few million in payroll would be: Toronto, NYC, DC on the East and Vancouver, San Francisco/San Jose, and Los Angeles. Beyond that, there's possibility for Chicago, Dallas and Houston.
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  #54  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2013, 9:21 PM
saffronleaf saffronleaf is offline
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Well, if a cricket league couldn't survive in the States, I'll be amazed if it survives in Canada, but godspeed to them.
While I don't think Canada can run its own cricket league, you have to consider immigration policies.

Toronto has about as many South Asians as NYC, which is crazy when you consider that NYC is multitudes larger than Toronto.

Vancouver has more than LA.

And I use South Asian populations as a proxy for cricket success because that is where cricket is most popular -- although it's also quite popular in England, Australia, and South Africa.

Toronto is by far the most 'Indian' city I've been to outside of India. Places like Mississauga and Brampton are like cultural wormholes into South Asia.

Personally, I would never go back to live in Mississauga or Brampton, partly because of their suburban nature, but also because it's way too Indian. I'm Indian (well, born in India but Canadian citizen), but I prefer a nice mix of cultures like you see in Toronto downtown compared to ethnic enclaves like Markham / Brampton.
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  #55  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2013, 9:39 PM
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Originally Posted by saffronleaf View Post
I think Canadians in general prefer to belong in American leagues.

People from outside Toronto will criticize Toronto because, unlike Arctic outposts like Edmonton, Toronto actually has a chance of getting into American leagues.

That said, MLC is dead.

As a cricket fan, I've thought of how a T20 Cricket League could be done in North America. The only population centers with enough people from South Asia, England and Australia that could support a team with a few million in payroll would be: Toronto, NYC, DC on the East and Vancouver, San Francisco/San Jose, and Los Angeles. Beyond that, there's possibility for Chicago, Dallas and Houston.
People outside of TO Criticizing Toronto? then calling Edmonton an Arctic Outpost ? btw, I'm not from Edmonton. Odd perspective.
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  #56  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2013, 9:48 PM
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Originally Posted by saffronleaf View Post
I think Canadians in general prefer to belong in American leagues.
Wrong. The insecure Canadians prefer to belong in American leagues.
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  #57  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2013, 9:50 PM
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Yup. And New Yorkers don't complain that the Jets and Giants are in the same league as Green Bay and Jacksonville.
No one in the UK complains that Swansea and Hull have teams. In fact, the opposite is true. The entire basis the league is built upon is the fact that ANY football club can reach the premiership. Rivalries are based upon the club, not the city. It's a far better system than the North American system where teams like the Maple Leafs can suck year after year and maintain their big league status. If the NHL employed the same system, any city could have an NHL team if the right team was built. It's far more exciting to see teams move up and down than see the same teams year after year.
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  #58  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2013, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by esquire View Post
Why bother even trying, right? That's the spirit! At least this way Toronto will have a team while the rest of the country's cricket enthusiasts can go pound sand!

(I should point out that I'm being tongue-in-cheek on this... the MLC thing has been dead for years judging by the wiki page)
I love how on this thread multiple posters take on the default "the American league is better" position when the American league has been dead for six years. Says a lot about how Canadians think.

The Major League Cricket Facebook page has 45 likes
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  #59  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2013, 10:34 PM
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I love how on this thread multiple posters take on the default "the American league is better" position when the American league has been dead for six years. Says a lot about how Canadians think.
Not better. Bigger.

Size matters when it comes to the sustainability of a professional sports league.
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  #60  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2013, 10:38 PM
GreatTallNorth2 GreatTallNorth2 is offline
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Not better. Bigger.

Size matters when it comes to the sustainability of a professional sports league.
Australia with its lower population and still a large land mass has a few sustainable leagues.
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