HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForumSkyscraper Posters
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Global Projects & Construction > Highrise & Supertall Proposals

Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #81  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2015, 2:32 PM
Philly Kid Philly Kid is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 50
http://www.phillymag.com/property/20...ty-living-yep/

A little over a year ago Philly Mag interviewed the VP of Toll Brother's city division, and he had some comments that addressed why they build high rises in NYC and not Philly.

Quote:
We would love to build mixed residential/commercial in this market,” says Brian Emmons, the vice president in charge of Toll’s City Living division, “but right now, [builders who do] can’t fill their retail. While everyone likes to live near commercial, the luxury demographic buyer chooses to live two to three blocks from it, not directly above it.”
Quote:
Another thing Philadelphians don’t go for, Emmons says, is high-rise density of the kind Toll builds in New York. Emmons rattles off a list of high-rise condo projects that came on the market both before and after the housing bubble burst: the Murano, 10 Rittenhouse, Waterfront Square–all of which ran into trouble, bankruptcy, or both.
Quote:
Construction costs in the city don’t help matters either, Emmons says: “In Philadelphia, it costs about $250-$300 a square foot to build [a place like Naval Square].” Meanwhile, luxury homes in the city sell for about $200 to $300 a square foot. You do the math. That doesn’t leave much room for error.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #82  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2015, 2:53 PM
Philly Fan Philly Fan is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,770
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philly Kid View Post
http://www.phillymag.com/property/20...ty-living-yep/

A little over a year ago Philly Mag interviewed the VP of Toll Brother's city division, and he had some comments that addressed why they build high rises in NYC and not Philly.
Thanks for posting that! These excerpts from that article, albeit not directly from the Toll Brothers VP, might be the most salient:

"Of course, as a publicly traded company, Toll Brothers must answer to shareholders who expect steady and rising returns, another reason the company plays it safe rather than pushes the boundaries when it comes to urban luxury residential development."

"Toll Brothers didn’t get to be the nation’s largest luxury home builder by getting ahead of its customers. And if what its customers want is suburban-style living with an urban address, then it will give it to them."

TRANSLATION: look for Toll Brothers to be in the rear guard of higher-density mixed-use development in Philly, and not on the leading edge.

Also, at least in this region, Toll Brothers generally doesn't build in the highest end of the market.

Last edited by Philly Fan; Feb 3, 2015 at 3:09 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #83  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2015, 7:31 PM
Londonee Londonee is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: London
Posts: 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philly Kid View Post
Construction costs in the city don’t help matters either, Emmons says: “In Philadelphia, it costs about $250-$300 a square foot to build [a place like Naval Square].” Meanwhile, luxury homes in the city sell for about $200 to $300 a square foot. You do the math. That doesn’t leave much room for error.
Emmons should probably get out of the suburbs and come into town and do some additional research. The building next door to this property is now commanding $1,000 per sf.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #84  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2015, 10:07 PM
jsbrook jsbrook is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 1,719
Quote:
Originally Posted by Londonee View Post
Emmons should probably get out of the suburbs and come into town and do some additional research. The building next door to this property is now commanding $1,000 per sf.
Emmons is probably talking about homes as in townhomes (that particular quote was regarding the Naval Square development). They sell for considerably less per square foot than condos. Compare the forthcoming Rittenhouse Estates to, say, 10 Rittenhouse. Of course, that only seems more reason to branch out into the world of condos. There is obviously a Phily market for luxury condos which command higher price per square foot. The only question is how deep it runs.

As far as the basis for their reluctance to build highrises...it's true that the Murano, 10 Rittenhouse, and Waterfront Square all ran into issues. By they are products of a particular time and place. I think it's a different market today.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #85  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2015, 10:23 PM
iheartphilly iheartphilly is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 865
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbrook View Post
Emmons is probably talking about homes as in townhomes (that particular quote was regarding the Naval Square development). They sell for considerably less per square foot than condos. Compare the forthcoming Rittenhouse Estates to, say, 10 Rittenhouse. Of course, that only seems more reason to branch out into the world of condos. There is obviously a Phily market for luxury condos which command higher price per square foot. The only question is how deep it runs.

As far as the other basis for their reluctance...it's true that the Murano, 10 Rittenhouse, and Waterfront Square all ran into issues. By they are products of a particular time and place. I think it's a different market today.
I'm of the mindset that they have enough experience with highrise condo from their NY portfolio to build a successful product, even in the Philly market. While they are considered a "luxury home builder" that brings cachet with it by virtue of their name (Toll Brothers), maybe they couldn't stomach the risks associated with one in Philly and the numbers didn't work for 1911 Walnut since they ultimately have to answer to shareholders. Maybe they were thinking Residences at Ritz Carlton by City Hall still had unsold units. In any case, I think it's a huge miss opportunity since Rittenhouse Square and luxury could go hand in hand. Plus, you got the one of best parks, great dining and shopping in this part of Philly.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #86  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2015, 12:12 AM
jsbrook jsbrook is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 1,719
Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartphilly View Post
I'm of the mindset that they have enough experience with highrise condo from their NY portfolio to build a successful product, even in the Philly market. While they are considered a "luxury home builder" that brings cachet with it by virtue of their name (Toll Brothers), maybe they couldn't stomach the risks associated with one in Philly and the numbers didn't work for 1911 Walnut since they ultimately have to answer to shareholders. Maybe they were thinking Residences at Ritz Carlton by City Hall still had unsold units. In any case, I think it's a huge miss opportunity since Rittenhouse Square and luxury could go hand in hand. Plus, you got the one of best parks, great dining and shopping in this part of Philly.
It's ok. It doesn't need to be them. I see things actually moving forward on that lot even if Southern Land Co. flips it and someone else does it. I think (hopefully) the tide has turned as far as the upscale Philly real estate market.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #87  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2015, 8:49 PM
summersm343's Avatar
summersm343 summersm343 is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 10,862
Andddd as well all though....

This lot is back on the market.

Looks like current owner just up-zoned it to resell for a profit. Hopefully the next owner is serious about developing something here.

http://www.bizjournals.com/philadelp...ment-site.html
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #88  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2015, 9:31 PM
iheartphilly iheartphilly is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 865
Drexel or Penn should snatch it up without hesitation and [co]develop it!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #89  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2015, 11:29 PM
mmikeyphilly mmikeyphilly is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 713
We all should have known by the developer's background. Their past projects weren't anywhere as grand as this. All of this time and effort on not just the developers part, but by the neighborhood association with the meetings, city council, etc. What a waste of everyone's time (and money) for Just more pie in the sky.
The developer building this up to look glamorous just to make a profit, or a bigger profit from the land. From now on, I'm judging EVERY developers plans ONLY when the first shovel of dirt is turned. What BS this turned out to be.
Anyone want a slice of Crap Pie?
__________________
whatever
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #90  
Old Posted Mar 6, 2015, 12:07 AM
Cro Burnham's Avatar
Cro Burnham Cro Burnham is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: delco
Posts: 2,396
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmikeyphilly View Post
What BS this turned out to be.
Anyone want a slice of Crap Pie?
Yup. Kind of predictable, I guess. That's why the the whatever it's called project across from Dave & Buster's by "Carl Marks Group" is so lacking in credibility. Complete pie in the sky by a tiny firm that has done nothing close to that scale or in such an urban location.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #91  
Old Posted Mar 6, 2015, 12:35 AM
cafeguy cafeguy is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 326
There are two types of speculators in this city... those who sit on land and let it fall apart until the neighborhood gets better and those with lots of money who sit on land and propose CRAZY ideas to sell it off.

I wish there was a way to curb speculators of the second sort. It over-inflates land values in a way that makes it impossible for future developers to work with... ie... see Castleway plot on Rittenhouse along with a bunch of plots of land along the waterfront.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #92  
Old Posted Mar 6, 2015, 1:09 AM
iheartphilly iheartphilly is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 865
Quote:
Originally Posted by cafeguy View Post
There are two types of speculators in this city... those who sit on land and let it fall apart until the neighborhood gets better and those with lots of money who sit on land and propose CRAZY ideas to sell it off.

I wish there was a way to curb speculators of the second sort. It over-inflates land values in a way that makes it impossible for future developers to work with... ie... see Castleway plot on Rittenhouse along with a bunch of plots of land along the waterfront.
How does Philly tax the land (i.e., does the City assess the value vs. the speculator's market value)? And, what other type of holding costs, if any? Thanks!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #93  
Old Posted Mar 6, 2015, 1:42 AM
cafeguy cafeguy is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 326
Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartphilly View Post
How does Philly tax the land (i.e., does the City assess the value vs. the speculator's market value)? And, what other type of holding costs, if any? Thanks!
Im pretty sure they don't tax land very much. That's the problem. Until they build, they are paying pennies no matter how much they inflate the value. Taxing the land would help create an incentive to use the land to create revenue. Without taxing the land, they could wait 20 years until a buyer comes along with millions.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #94  
Old Posted Mar 6, 2015, 3:26 AM
hammersklavier's Avatar
hammersklavier hammersklavier is offline
Your 2016 AAC Champs!
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Polis Philou Adelfou
Posts: 5,230
Quote:
Originally Posted by cafeguy View Post
There are two types of speculators in this city... those who sit on land and let it fall apart until the neighborhood gets better and those with lots of money who sit on land and propose CRAZY ideas to sell it off.

I wish there was a way to curb speculators of the second sort. It over-inflates land values in a way that makes it impossible for future developers to work with... ie... see Castleway plot on Rittenhouse along with a bunch of plots of land along the waterfront.
This lot's previous use was as a small railyard. So there are PCB issues hiding underneath that asphalt.

To be perfectly frank, it's gonna take a pretty fair-size project to break even with all the remediation they'll have to do.
__________________
Urban Rambles | Hidden City

Who knows but that, on the lower levels, I speak for you?’ (Ralph Ellison, Invisible Man)
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #95  
Old Posted Mar 6, 2015, 3:56 PM
Larry King Larry King is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 750
shouldn't be a surprise to anyone, i broke this news over a month ago

and

no reason to demonize the developer. the site is now zoned for a HUGE project that's appropriate for that lot. it's not exactly easy to get all that approved in philly, now it's ready for a big developer to come in and build by-right.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #96  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2015, 12:30 AM
summersm343's Avatar
summersm343 summersm343 is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 10,862
Developer and LSNA claim the lot is not up for sale.

Quote:
There was a report that this project site may be up for sale. However, it is not. Following contact with the developer NPI and their attorney, it was ascertained that NPI's superior may be splitting up or reorganizing. However, NPI still wants to go forward with this project.
https://docs.google.com/a/lsnaphilly...c1M2RlZGY2OWZj
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #97  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2015, 5:54 AM
Flyers2001 Flyers2001 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by summersm343 View Post
Developer and LSNA claim the lot is not up for sale.



https://docs.google.com/a/lsnaphilly...c1M2RlZGY2OWZj
I suppose this is somewhat good news. BUT, not having a time table kinda stinks.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #98  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2015, 3:03 PM
mmikeyphilly mmikeyphilly is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 713
yeah okay...uh huh

"There was a report that this project site may be up for sale. However, it is not. Following contact with the developer NPI and their attorney, it was ascertained that NPI's superior may be splitting up or reorganizing. However, NPI still wants to go forward with this project."

This is so funny it makes me sick.

Please stop wasting time. This makes it even funnier. Doesn't "splitting up and reorganizing" mean just a glamorous description for "Bankruptcy"?

Like I said in my post above: BS, let's "show me the money". I fell for "the sky is falling" one too many times.
__________________
whatever
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #99  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2015, 6:20 PM
wondertwinalpha wondertwinalpha is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 112
Samples?

Walked by this lot today and it looks like they are doing what I think is soil sampling. Maybe someone else knows for sure what this machine does. Maybe they really are hoping to move forward on this project.

Reply With Quote
     
     
  #100  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2015, 6:59 PM
1487 1487 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,774
It appears they are taking test bores. They did that at the W site several months ago. Its a sign of progress.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Global Projects & Construction > Highrise & Supertall Proposals
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 3:48 AM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.