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  #8761  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2017, 8:46 PM
blueandgoldguy blueandgoldguy is offline
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What Berklon says about the Arizona Coyotes and Carolina Hurricanes is true. This is being discussed in detail in a few threads on the HFboards. Several posters, including some from Raleigh and Phoenix, are providing updates on the proceedings on those prospective proceedings.

Carolina owner Pete Karmanos has been unable to find a potential buyer in North Carolina willing to pay the $400 + million he has demanded. He has been losing tens of millions in recent years with crowds averaging around 12,000 per game the past 3 seasons. If he cannot find a local buyer soon willing to meet his demands he might look towards another market that will.

Right now, the only city that appears to have both an NHL-arena ready and an ownership group probably willing to pay the $400 + million for the privilege of owning a team is Quebec. Portland has an arena but the owner is unlikely willing to pay the asking price, Seattle might have an interested ownership group lead by Hansen but are far from resolving the arena issue. A team could play at Key arena but due to the arena configuration (basketball arena like Barclays) it would have only 11,000 seats available for hockey. The team would bleed serious coin. Houston has had little interest in bringing hockey to their city as the owner of the Rockets, Alexander, has had little desire since the 90s when his bid was rejected...plus he has lost significant net worth, at least that is my understanding.

The only thing that may complicate matters with moving the Canes to Quebec City is the lease with their current arena. I believe there are 7 years remaining on it so breaking it would require a significant payout. Perhaps $25-$35 million. I guess that could be worked out though and with each year that passes, the lease will be cheaper to break.

The Coyotes are in even worse trouble as their pseudo-ownership group led by Anthony LeBlanc (or as he is affectionately known on the HfBoards, LeBluster) no longer receives a subsidy from the city of Glendale as of 2015 thanks to a technicality that allowed the city to break the lease. The team was already losing large amounts of money even with the subsidy so those losses have only grown in the past few years.

So far their search for a mostly (or completely?) subsidized new arena and new sucker..I mean city of the Greater Phoenix Area in which the team can relocate has come up empty as Arizona State university recently decided not to partner with them on a new arena in Tempe and the state has so far rejected their proposals for subsidies for the proposed new arena.

Bettman also released an official statement that the Coyotes are no longer viable in Glendale despite all attempts to make the team viable in that location . That is pretty much the kiss of death right there. I'm pretty sure this proposed new bill with the state for new funding will not pass either as they have in all probability finally wisened up. Having seen the mess they have left in Glendale, leaving that city with a huge debt on a mere 13 year old arena which is more than capable of hosting an NHL team for the next 20 years, it is unlikely government officials will make the same mistake twice...or at least one can hope.

Given these two immediate critical situations in Raleigh and Phoenix, and an apparent lack of options, I would be surprised if the fallout doesn't result in one of these franchises relocating to QC. Remember folks, Quebecor is in good standing with Bettman and the BOG. There is a reason a member of the potential Quebec City ownership group was standing next to Bettman during the announcement of the Las Vegas expansion team last year folks. It's only a matter of time....
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  #8762  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2017, 9:08 PM
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It's worth remembering that only about a week before the Thrashers moved to Winnipeg, Bettman was adamant that the team wasn't going anywhere.

So what he says right now means nothing. It's his job to say that all teams are stable and have no chance of moving.

The real business (if there is any on this front) is happening behind the scenes.

If and when it happens it will go down fairly quickly and out of the blue, I suspect.

Of course, there are better times for a deal and an announcement than others. During the season or when a team is in the playoffs is no good as it could hurt ticket sales.

Anytime a sad sack team is out of the playoffs, and also the off-season, are likely times for an announcement though. Once the season starts again it's unlikely though.
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  #8763  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2017, 9:09 PM
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Neither the Coyotes nor the Hurricanes seem likely to make the playoffs.
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  #8764  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2017, 9:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
This is true but only to a point. Following up on what wave just noted, the least valuable Canadian team in the NHL is Winnipeg. There are 10 U.S. teams less valuable than the Jets, all of them in larger markets than Winnipeg. In many cases, the markets are exponentially larger than Winnipeg.
These sports valuations are arbitrary. Forbes makes up the bogus list each year which takes some good guesses. It is a good reference point but it isn't gospel.

Many teams are over or undervalued. The best way to know if a team is worth is to figure out what assets it has. Teams that have assets such as their building, real estate, TV networks, etc all add into the pot.

In the end, a sports franchise is only worth what the next person is willing to pay for it. The LA Clippers are not worth $2 Billion, but Steve Balmer thought they were.

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Originally Posted by wave46 View Post
True, but corporate money is diluted in the US among the major sports leagues - the NHL, NFL, MLB and NBA all 'compete' for the same corporate sponsors. Outside of the Toronto market, the NHL is the only game in town in Canada and by far the most popular sport here (token acknowledgement of the CFL). That is what helps with making a case for our smaller cities.
Even when diluted USA corporate money still is an avalanche versus the snowfall that is here in Canada.

If the CFL was in America and its current status as the "#2 league" in America it would be swimming in money. Look at the NBA, as #2 it has so much money thrown at it does not know what to do with it. The league is an ATM right now as so much money is being poured into the business. The CFL would be paying players in the millions if it was the "#2" in America.
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  #8765  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2017, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by osmo View Post
If the CFL was in America and its current status as the "#2 league" in America it would be swimming in money. Look at the NBA, as #2 it has so much money thrown at it does not know what to do with it. The league is an ATM right now as so much money is being poured into the business. The CFL would be paying players in the millions if it was the "#2" in America.
The NBA is bigger than MLB? What criteria is that based on?
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  #8766  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2017, 10:13 PM
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The NBA is bigger than MLB? What criteria is that based on?
The average player is taller....
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  #8767  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2017, 10:24 PM
blueandgoldguy blueandgoldguy is offline
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Originally Posted by Corndogger View Post
The NBA is bigger than MLB? What criteria is that based on?
No, MLB produces far greater revenues at $10 billion. If you take the typical MLB team's regional tv contract and combine it with their share of the national tv contract it is far greater than a typical NBA's team regional tv deal + share of national tv deal. Also, despite the higher average ticket price for NBA games, MLB teams typically have larger gate revenues thanks to an average attendance of approx. 30,000 for 81 games vs. an average attendance of 17,000 for 41 home games for an NBA team.

NBA revenues are estimated to be $8 billion this season by the way.

Last edited by blueandgoldguy; Mar 20, 2017 at 11:24 PM.
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  #8768  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2017, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy View Post
No, MLB produces fare greater revenues at $10 billion. If you take the typical MLB team's regional tv contract and combine it with their share of the national tv contract it is far greater than a typical NBA's team regional tv deal + share of national tv deal. Also, despite the higher average ticket price, MLB teams typically have larger gate revenues thanks to an average attendance of approx. 30,000 for 81 games vs. an average attendance of 17,000 for 41 home games for an NBA team.

NBA revenues are estimated to be $8 billion this season by the way.
I was quite sure that MLB was a lot bigger which is why I asked.
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  #8769  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2017, 10:42 PM
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Not bad Edmonton

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  #8770  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2017, 1:38 AM
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I actually think if the CFL slowly and steadily expanded into the U.S it could be very lucrative for them. When the league expanded in 1993-1995 In the U.S. they were on death's door but with their much better health and resources I could see 6-8 Northern U.S. based teams being quite successful. The revenue streams it could produce would be a TV deal on ESPN 2, new expansion fees for the league between say 10-20 million per club. If the league expanded into mid size U.S. cities with a rough composition of US West: Portland OR, St Paul MN or Fargo ND, Boise ID and Salt Lake City UT. US East teams of: Syracuse NY or Buffalo NY, Hartford CT, Akron OH and Detroit MI. Most of these cities have near perfect CFL sized stadiums that house NCAA football teams in their cities or their suburbs.
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  #8771  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2017, 2:10 AM
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Quote:
SaskScraper
Quebec City's airport is same size as Saskatoon's
Quebec City's only year-round permanent air connection is to NYC, nothing non-stop even to a city like Boston. Saskatoon has year-round to Minni PLUS even more American connections during NHL season.
[/QUOTE]

Don't teams charter all their flights these days ?
Maybe airport connections aren't as important as they once were ?
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  #8772  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2017, 2:28 AM
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Don't teams charter all their flights these days ?
Maybe airport connections aren't as important as they once were ?[/QUOTE]

Yes, they use charters. I think all 7 Canadian clubs have contracts with Air Canada.
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  #8773  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2017, 3:37 AM
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  #8774  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2017, 4:05 AM
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Re: Number 2 league

I am talking viewing eyes. NBA is the second most popular sport in the USA out of the Big 4 leagues.

People are cherry picking numbers as well. Regional TV monies do not get distributed league wide in MLB. What is there core league revenues (?), that is what is important. Each team will vary widely from their own local revenue sources that don't count towards league revenues.

Also, MLB gets good money from its assets such as BAM media. MLB makes good money and is profitable but it is not the number 2 league in the USA. NBA dominates the number 2 position, it isn't close (I say this as an MLB fan myself).

MLB just like the NBA is in a bubble. Regional TV money that is inflating MLB teams isn't sustainable. At least with the NBA the money is league wide and the water will bring down all the boats together and is manageable from a league level. MLB some teams will be under water while some teams float. Arizona Diamondbacks are a good example of a bloated TV deal. I believe the Rangers have a hot air TV deal as well.
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  #8775  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2017, 4:32 AM
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What is more intesting to me is the NBA ever comes back to Canada with a second team. Vancouver was a good market for the long term. A young and ethic population base with lots of Asian-Canadians who are fans of basketball she NBA botched it by not connecting with the grassroots and community groups. There is enough sentimental value for the old Grizzlies brand in Vancouver but the NBA let the trademark move away. I could see the NBA return there in my lifetime but only after Seattle gets a team back.

The next market I think that could potentially do well would be Calgary as it has a corporate base and a younger population that is much more diverse. I see more potential in Calgary being able to support to major teams over a Ottawa.

The Raptors have shown it's a long term game with markets and you need some luck of course. Vince Carter was the sole reason for many young fans who are now adults and are diehard Raptors fans. During the VC era he brought a excitement to the Raptors brand that help sell tickets and make the brand a viable attention grabber. Now the patience has paid off as the Raptors will soon start bringing more revenues each year than the Leafs.
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  #8776  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2017, 4:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craner View Post
Don't teams charter all their flights these days ?
Maybe airport connections aren't as important as they once were ?
I didn't think airport was an issue either but Blueandgoldguy seemed to think it was.. I know Sask Rush charters flights too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy View Post
...The airport is another issue with its lack of connecting flights even more problematic than Winnipeg. It's something that tends to get glossed over when discussing the logistics of an NHL team in Saskatoon...
SaskTel Centre in Saskatoon is younger than Saddledome but talks have already begun last year for a downtown Saskatoon replacement.

http://saskatoon.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId=852483

Ed Sheeran last week sold out concert in 30 mins for SaskTel Centre, his second appearance at the facility in two years. The centre has served it purpose well but its become outgrown & a larger replacement will likely come in a decade or two.

http://thestarphoenix.com/entertainm...sasktel-centre
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  #8777  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2017, 4:06 PM
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Out of all the leagues.. NBA players make the most. No questions there.

As there are fewer personal on the team, and they share almost 50/50 revenue/profits with the owners.
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  #8778  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2017, 4:53 PM
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^ Maybe on average but MLB rosters are huge compared to NBA ones. Of the very highest paid MLB players make more than NBA players.
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  #8779  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2017, 6:42 PM
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^ Yea and nearly all of the highest paid athletes are baseball players:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...orts_contracts

MLB teams also make far more money overall and on a per player basis than the NBA:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ues_by_revenue
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  #8780  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2017, 7:09 PM
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Originally Posted by FFX-ME View Post
^ Yea and nearly all of the highest paid athletes are baseball players:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...orts_contracts

MLB teams also make far more money overall and on a per player basis than the NBA:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ues_by_revenue
Interesting link. I had no idea baseball players dominated so much. Straight up they might be the richest athletes in the world... even though some of the top F1 racers and boxers make more money, I'm guessing that they have far more overhead, someone like Kimi Raikonnen probably supports dozens of staff with his earnings, has to pay the immense costs of moving everyone and their gear around, etc. Conversely, Mike Trout probably pays for himself, his agent and a trainer and then for the occasional services of a bunch of random professionals like accountants, lawyers, etc.
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