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  #81  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2016, 1:09 PM
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Did they say something like 4,000 parking spots associated with this project? Clearly, they are not expecting many to actually live in Camden. At least not for some time.
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  #82  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2016, 2:29 PM
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I wonder if these garages/lowrises are being built to support towers in the future. If the project is successful the value of this land goes way up, but oops, now it is covered with lowrise parking.
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  #83  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2016, 3:11 PM
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Did they say something like 4,000 parking spots associated with this project? Clearly, they are not expecting many to actually live in Camden. At least not for some time.
As a Jersey native, I wish nothing but the best for Camden. But they have a loooooong way to go before you start having people move in, even your hipsters and 'urban pioneers'.

Also, I'm glad somebody said it....but I have to agree that the new renderings are disappointing. This is a case where anything is better than nothing, but the originals were purdy compared to the new ones.
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  #84  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2016, 3:56 PM
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As a Jersey native, I wish nothing but the best for Camden. But they have a loooooong way to go before you start having people move in, even your hipsters and 'urban pioneers'.

Also, I'm glad somebody said it....but I have to agree that the new renderings are disappointing. This is a case where anything is better than nothing, but the originals were purdy compared to the new ones.
I agree. I was looking at homes in camden before, but the housing stock there is pretty small in terms of interesting, older, large homes. Old city, riverwards, fairmount, etc etc etc ALL have to become expensive before people start crossing the river to live in Camden. We are probably another 20 years out from when living in the "cool parts" of philly become cost prohibitive, pushing people over the river to camden.
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  #85  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2016, 8:56 PM
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I agree. I was looking at homes in camden before, but the housing stock there is pretty small in terms of interesting, older, large homes. Old city, riverwards, fairmount, etc etc etc ALL have to become expensive before people start crossing the river to live in Camden. We are probably another 20 years out from when living in the "cool parts" of philly become cost prohibitive, pushing people over the river to camden.
There are some parts of Camden that are gentrifying (the area around Rutgers; Lanning Square) and are interesting in their own right (Fairview; that area where Latinos are unslumming) already. It still does have a long way to go, yes, but it's made a lot more progress in the last ten years than most people realize.
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  #86  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2016, 10:09 PM
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There are some parts of Camden that are gentrifying (the area around Rutgers; Lanning Square) and are interesting in their own right (Fairview; that area where Latinos are unslumming) already. It still does have a long way to go, yes, but it's made a lot more progress in the last ten years than most people realize.
If these types of proposals continue to pop up and Camden gets more businesses moving in, then yes I 100% agree...but residents will need to have that convenience of being close to work, otherwise you can't compete with the proximity to CC and other mass transit that 'up and coming' (and equally dangerous) parts of Philly have. Point Breeze, Brewerytown, and the lower part of Kensington are well on their way and for the most part extremely affordable. I can also see Mantua and other parts of West Philly changing way before Camden does.
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  #87  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2016, 10:17 PM
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If these types of proposals continue to pop up and Camden gets more businesses moving in, then yes I 100% agree...but residents will need to have that convenience of being close to work, otherwise you can't compete with the proximity to CC and other mass transit that 'up and coming' (and equally dangerous) parts of Philly have. Point Breeze, Brewerytown, and the lower part of Kensington are well on their way and for the most part extremely affordable. I can also see Mantua and other parts of West Philly changing way before Camden does.
If camden is going to attract a critical mass of new residents... it will have less to do with proximity to CC and more to do with proximity to jobs in Camden itself. I can see people moving there to be walking distance to their jobs in Camden. We'll see how things are looking in 2020 or so when all these new jobs from NJ EDA are up and running.
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  #88  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2016, 6:10 PM
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[QUOTE=hammersklavier;

That fat new building is kind of ugly, actually. [/QUOTE]


Yes , I'm sorry but to invest something like $830 Mil in a ( now 26 acre ) project and then
approve a design , 4th. graders with crayons could improve upon just baffles the shit out
of me .
Personally , I don't care how tall or what the floor count will be , this is an abortion .
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  #89  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2016, 3:41 AM
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Looks like there's equipment on site! Sorry for the crap quality, by the way. I saw this as I was passing by on PATCO.



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  #90  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2016, 10:01 AM
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I'll admit that the revision is kind of underwhelming, to say the least!!! It's almost like how the ACC in Philadelphia first came out, and it seemed like everybody and their mother was excited that we was going to have America's tallest building, then all of a sudden, for some strange reason, it doesn't get the major tenant that it deserves, and it sadly bites the dust.

Even though the project finally goes forward, the revision of the tallest building is very bland and very depressing, as the first proposal was very forward and very inspiring, especially for a city like Camden, which needs a shot in the ass to jumpstart it's renaissance. I'm disappointed that the first proposal couldn't get off the ground as promised, and I wonder why the project was scaled back (gov't, residents' fears of gentrification and taxes, etc.).

It's still an okay project, but the first project should've at least been strongly considered since it's not nearby any neighborhood and it's only on the waterfront, in this case, meaning that the property would've been expensive anyway since anything on the waterfront commands high prices. Once you go for mediocrity, you're going to get mediocre results, no matter what, just ask the gov't leaders, the developers, and the businessmen who killed off what should've been a major public works project such as the American Commerce Center and replaced it with the Comcast II. If only the Comcast II got destroyed somehow and replaced it with the ACC, I'd be happy, but for right now, we have to live with mediocrity. AAAAAARGH!!!
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  #91  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2016, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by jsbrook View Post
Did they say something like 4,000 parking spots associated with this project? Clearly, they are not expecting many to actually live in Camden. At least not for some time.
I wouldn't have expected anything different. Not much about this project is designed to help camden generally. this is the creation of an enclave near the river for suburbanites to work and not really have to see or rub shoulders any camden residents.
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  #92  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2016, 2:13 PM
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I'll admit that the revision is kind of underwhelming, to say the least!!! It's almost like how the ACC in Philadelphia first came out, and it seemed like everybody and their mother was excited that we was going to have America's tallest building, then all of a sudden, for some strange reason, it doesn't get the major tenant that it deserves, and it sadly bites the dust.

Even though the project finally goes forward, the revision of the tallest building is very bland and very depressing, as the first proposal was very forward and very inspiring, especially for a city like Camden, which needs a shot in the ass to jumpstart it's renaissance. I'm disappointed that the first proposal couldn't get off the ground as promised, and I wonder why the project was scaled back (gov't, residents' fears of gentrification and taxes, etc.).

It's still an okay project, but the first project should've at least been strongly considered since it's not nearby any neighborhood and it's only on the waterfront, in this case, meaning that the property would've been expensive anyway since anything on the waterfront commands high prices. Once you go for mediocrity, you're going to get mediocre results, no matter what, just ask the gov't leaders, the developers, and the businessmen who killed off what should've been a major public works project such as the American Commerce Center and replaced it with the Comcast II. If only the Comcast II got destroyed somehow and replaced it with the ACC, I'd be happy, but for right now, we have to live with mediocrity. AAAAAARGH!!!
What surprises me more is that they scaled back the design so much so fast. It's not like they proposed this 3 years ago and decided to pull this back. They announced this like less than 6 months ago, right? Its almost like they knew they weren't going to build it.
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  #93  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2016, 2:52 PM
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Originally Posted by PhilliesPhan View Post
Looks like there's equipment on site! Sorry for the crap quality, by the way. I saw this as I was passing by on PATCO.
PhilliesPhan, I appreciate the pic, crappy quality and all. I know what it's like to be riding along, see something, and have like 2 seconds to get a shot off. Hopefully you will be able to take more pics as construction moves forward.

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Originally Posted by wanderer34 View Post
Once you go for mediocrity, you're going to get mediocre results, no matter what, just ask the gov't leaders, the developers, and the businessmen who killed off what should've been a major public works project such as the American Commerce Center and replaced it with the Comcast II. If only the Comcast II got destroyed somehow and replaced it with the ACC, I'd be happy, but for right now, we have to live with mediocrity. AAAAAARGH!!!
Wanderer34, I agree with the spirit of what you are trying to say in your above post, except I think your comparisons of ACC and CITC are off base. I personally think CITC is rockin'-awesome, with or without ACC. The demise of ACC had nothing to do with CITC. I am extremely thankful that Philadelphia is getting a Norman Foster designed super tall. Just about any city in the world would be thankful.

ACC was an awesome proposal in its own right, and I think CITC has the better design of the two.

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Originally Posted by 1487 View Post
I wouldn't have expected anything different. Not much about this project is designed to help camden generally. this is the creation of an enclave near the river for suburbanites to work and not really have to see or rub shoulders any camden residents.
It's still 100 times better than the suburban park Subaru is moving to, and in a much more appropriate part of the city. I'm not sure what your point is but would you recommend building this in the middle of the projects? Almost anyone in the Camden can ride a bike here, some can walk here, and many can take the bus. And of course some will drive. I think this provides good things for Camden residents. This can certainly help people in North Camden, especially in the first 5 or 6 blocks near the river. You may not find corporate execs living in North Camden right now, but for the people that are there, some decent jobs will be coming near them. It can also help students with co-op opportunities, help adults who may work here, but want to walk nearby for night classes,etc.

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What surprises me more is that they scaled back the design so much so fast. It's not like they proposed this 3 years ago and decided to pull this back. They announced this like less than 6 months ago, right? Its almost like they knew they weren't going to build it.
I agree. Almost like they wanted to show a "pie in the sky" idea, and then scale it back. I'm not sure why/how all that played out. My guess is that there were multiple renditions of this project created, and the one they chose to go to press with was the most ambitious. It could still change, after all. It's still early enough in the game.

On another note, PATCO may need to revise some bus routes once this project gets rolling, to better serve this area. Who knows, maybe even people on the Philadelphia side of the river can bus it to this location.
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  #94  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2016, 4:43 PM
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...PATCO doesn't operate bus routes in NJ. NJ Transit does.

Also the River Line runs right by this project. The Aquarium station should be in walking distance to the whole thing.
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  #95  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2016, 2:58 AM
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The revision is boring compared to the original, but still better than anything that's happened in Camden in the last 50 years. 100 years? 4000 parking spaces seems absurd considering the surface lots around the project, but I guess if they're incased in the buildings and not obstructing the streetscape, it doesn't really matter. They're surplus.

Still, NJ can't seem to cut ties with a car centric mentality that says even high-rises and skyscrapers are suburban constructs that need parking. Camden should be East Philly, and if the NJ powers-that-be had half a brain they'd recognize the fact that Camden could be Cira Centre East. But no. New Jersey will never admit it's a suburb. Ever.
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  #96  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2016, 3:12 AM
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Originally Posted by hammersklavier View Post
...PATCO doesn't operate bus routes in NJ. NJ Transit does.

Also the River Line runs right by this project. The Aquarium station should be in walking distance to the whole thing.
Ah, that's right. NJ Transit. Thanks for the correction.

An Philantonian, you bring up valid points.
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  #97  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2016, 2:36 AM
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PhilliesPhan, I appreciate the pic, crappy quality and all. I know what it's like to be riding along, see something, and have like 2 seconds to get a shot off. Hopefully you will be able to take more pics as construction moves forward.
Thank you! I will definitely continue to do so when I transfer to Temple next semester and obtain my monthly TransPass (hopefully SEPTA Key by then!).
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  #98  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2016, 4:54 AM
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Wanderer34, I agree with the spirit of what you are trying to say in your above post, except I think your comparisons of ACC and CITC are off base. I personally think CITC is rockin'-awesome, with or without ACC. The demise of ACC had nothing to do with CITC. I am extremely thankful that Philadelphia is getting a Norman Foster designed super tall. Just about any city in the world would be thankful.

ACC was an awesome proposal in its own right, and I think CITC has the better design of the two.
I was actually comparing the ACC with the Camden Waterfront proposal. I've compared the ACC with the CITC numerous times on this forum that I've lost count but I still say that the ACC had the better design, the better usage of land since it's taller and has many more floors and office than the CITC, the most originality, and more amenities than the CITC can combine. The CITC is nothing more than a copycat building and a cheater in it's own right!!!

But the similarities between the ACC and the Camden Waterfront proposal is that both building were slated to become the tallest buildings in their respective cities (Philadelphia and Camden), both had impeccable world-class design and architecture, both are in the Greater Philadelphia/Delaware Valley area, and both have some kind of connection with Liberty Property Trust (ACC was practically killed of partially by them while the initial Camden Waterfront project was greatly downscaled to a black box suitable for a city like Baltimore and STL).

The difference is that Philly already has a very good skyline why should've been greatly enhanced with the ACC as well as obtained another corporation based here while Camden is trying to find it's identity besides being the home of Campbells Soup after losing RCA and NY Shipbuilding and many other manufacturing and port jobs for so long, as well as retain and attract a middle and upper class within it's city limits after losing them to nearby suburbs like Cherry Hill, Voohees, Deptford, and Washington Township. Camden is also trying to lower it's crime rates in order to attract investment and reduce it's blight, so while anything will help Camden, when it comes to it's downtown and especially it's waterfront, the initial proposal was the best. It doesn't have to be a supertall, but why did LPT first put that proposal out, then change it at the last minute just to get it finally approved (fears of gentrification, cost of materials, fears of higher taxes in the city, NIMBYism)???

I feel that any answer should do, but the fact that we don't even know the real reason why the initial project was changed for such a short period of time conflicts with the trust that nothing of high quality will be built in this region for awhile and I'm afraid that the currently proposed Schuylkill Yards may go the same route as the ACC and the Camden Waterfront project in that they're all great projects, but may never be built or may be greatly and drastically downsized. It doesn't feel like the late 80's when Liberty Place first got erected and Philly was already having a huge skyscraper boom and it's momentum, or even the 90's when our first modern skyline was completed and Rendell was already making major amends to how the city operated, in fact other than the first Comcast Center and the FMC Tower, when it comes to other projects, I personally feel this current Philly skyline expansion is sputtering!!!

Projects of the past which would've been great additions such as the Trump Tower, Bridgeman's View Tower, Penn's Point, and Mandeville Place have gone into the skyscraper graveyard. Other cities are doing worse than Philly, but for a city of our size, we should've at least had something that we can consider world-class, even if it was only one supertall in our region, just something that we can say WE FINALLY DID IT!!!! But alas, we have to live with our decisions, good or bad! We made our bed, and we must lie in it!!!
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  #99  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2016, 2:00 PM
Caruso975 Caruso975 is offline
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Originally Posted by wanderer34 View Post
I was actually comparing the ACC with the Camden Waterfront proposal. I've compared the ACC with the CITC numerous times on this forum that I've lost count but I still say that the ACC had the better design, the better usage of land since it's taller and has many more floors and office than the CITC, the most originality, and more amenities than the CITC can combine. The CITC is nothing more than a copycat building and a cheater in it's own right!!!

But the similarities between the ACC and the Camden Waterfront proposal is that both building were slated to become the tallest buildings in their respective cities (Philadelphia and Camden), both had impeccable world-class design and architecture, both are in the Greater Philadelphia/Delaware Valley area, and both have some kind of connection with Liberty Property Trust (ACC was practically killed of partially by them while the initial Camden Waterfront project was greatly downscaled to a black box suitable for a city like Baltimore and STL).

The difference is that Philly already has a very good skyline why should've been greatly enhanced with the ACC as well as obtained another corporation based here while Camden is trying to find it's identity besides being the home of Campbells Soup after losing RCA and NY Shipbuilding and many other manufacturing and port jobs for so long, as well as retain and attract a middle and upper class within it's city limits after losing them to nearby suburbs like Cherry Hill, Voohees, Deptford, and Washington Township. Camden is also trying to lower it's crime rates in order to attract investment and reduce it's blight, so while anything will help Camden, when it comes to it's downtown and especially it's waterfront, the initial proposal was the best. It doesn't have to be a supertall, but why did LPT first put that proposal out, then change it at the last minute just to get it finally approved (fears of gentrification, cost of materials, fears of higher taxes in the city, NIMBYism)???

I feel that any answer should do, but the fact that we don't even know the real reason why the initial project was changed for such a short period of time conflicts with the trust that nothing of high quality will be built in this region for awhile and I'm afraid that the currently proposed Schuylkill Yards may go the same route as the ACC and the Camden Waterfront project in that they're all great projects, but may never be built or may be greatly and drastically downsized. It doesn't feel like the late 80's when Liberty Place first got erected and Philly was already having a huge skyscraper boom and it's momentum, or even the 90's when our first modern skyline was completed and Rendell was already making major amends to how the city operated, in fact other than the first Comcast Center and the FMC Tower, when it comes to other projects, I personally feel this current Philly skyline expansion is sputtering!!!

Projects of the past which would've been great additions such as the Trump Tower, Bridgeman's View Tower, Penn's Point, and Mandeville Place have gone into the skyscraper graveyard. Other cities are doing worse than Philly, but for a city of our size, we should've at least had something that we can consider world-class, even if it was only one supertall in our region, just something that we can say WE FINALLY DID IT!!!! But alas, we have to live with our decisions, good or bad! We made our bed, and we must lie in it!!!
To suggest that ACC was killed off by Liberty Property Trust and/or Comcast is fantasy bordering on paranoia.

ACC died because it did not have a credible sponsor with track record in the development of large complex urban projects. The sponsor had neither the capital, nor the access to the capital, nor the tenants, nor the ability to obtain those tenants which would be necessary in order to bring such a project to fruition. In short, in never had a real chance of becoming a reality.
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  #100  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2016, 2:20 PM
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To suggest that ACC was killed off by Liberty Property Trust and/or Comcast is fantasy bordering on paranoia.

ACC died because it did not have a credible sponsor with track record in the development of large complex urban projects. The sponsor had neither the capital, nor the access to the capital, nor the tenants, nor the ability to obtain those tenants which would be necessary in order to bring such a project to fruition. In short, in never had a real chance of becoming a reality.
Yes. In addition to project-specific issues, there was no legitimate market or tenants for a building of that size in that location at that time.
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