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  #21  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2017, 2:39 PM
Larry King Larry King is offline
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I love the concept of this project. Start with 1 tower and go from there
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  #22  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2017, 5:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Knight Hospitaller View Post
God bless 'em if they can pull off "Miami on Delaware." I don't ever see Delaware Ave. being thoroughly integrated into the city fabric, so standalone developments for a standalone area are fine by me. - As for Blatstein's gas stations and Aldi's they have their place, but not as the gateway to the river. Blatstein seems to lack vision (which is not the same thing as being given to fantasy).
If this was proposed on the Schuylkill River, I would not only be excited, but I would actually expect it to be built.

Hate to say it, but you have better odds on winning the Powerball then this thing ever getting built.
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  #23  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2017, 5:22 PM
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Knight Hospitaller Knight Hospitaller is offline
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I'm gonna be rich!
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  #24  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2017, 8:12 PM
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I hope it gets built. The location is already cut off from the neighborhood. This is basically a new neighborhood being built.

One requirement should be access to the path that runs along the river. If they price the housing correctly, it would have no issues being occupied.
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  #25  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2017, 8:55 PM
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The developers better be motivated because this is very ambitious. I can see this being a great condo location for empty nest executive types who work in the Philly, NYC, or Baltimore/DC, suburbs who want to "live in the city" but don't want to pay NYC or DC prices.
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  #26  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2017, 9:18 PM
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^ That's encouraging. Let's hope that the other requisites like ability and financing are also present (cf. Bart "Sky Village" Blatstein).
Not to mention demand...I don't mean to be negative, but this one seems to be a real stretch to me.
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  #27  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2017, 6:27 PM
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Yeah, on second look this thing is so massively out of scale in just about every way imaginable that it was clearly intended for approval flipping (preferably to an out-of-town buyer), not for actual construction. A developer who actually wanted to make something happen on this site would be better off doing some rowhomes or Texas doughnuts, if not a combination of the two.

BTW -- wasn't this previously the site for a similarly massively overscaled development that featured a bunch of towers around a marina?
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  #28  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2017, 6:38 PM
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I think this is one instance where I want them to downsize the project. It would probably make it more realistic. They should get rid of the 4 towers on the piers, and either work with the city or donate/sell the piers to the city to turn into parks/green space.

That would leave 6 towers and the townhomes. The towers would be: 2 condo towers, 2 rental towers, a senior living tower and a hotel tower, plus the townhomes.

I think it would make much more sense and be much more financially feasible.

The first phase could include a condo, rental, senior living and hotel tower and the majority of the townhomes. The second phase would include the second condo and rental towers and the remainder of the townhomes.
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  #29  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2017, 7:50 PM
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Its about time a project like this came into the Philadelphia area.
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  #30  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2017, 8:44 PM
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Its about time a project like this came into the Philadelphia area. they tried to do a Waterfront Square in South Philly.
Fixed that for you.

While the city and economy has changed since Waterfront Square was attempted. I don't think the Delaware has changed enough to be optimistic of this getting built as it appears in the renderings. I get that it's a different part of the city, but it's too removed from everything down there.

I like the concept, but I doubt this gets built (although I really hope I'm wrong).
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  #31  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2017, 8:51 PM
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Fixed that for you.

While the city and economy has changed since Waterfront Square was attempted. I don't think the Delaware has changed enough to be optimistic of this getting built as it appears in the renderings. I get that it's a different part of the city, but it's too removed from everything down there.

I like the concept, but I doubt this gets built (although I really hope I'm wrong).
Waterfront Square came at a terrible time as the bubble burst. Other issues being over priced and ahead of its time for the neighborhood. The surrounding area is finally catching up.

If this project keeps prices reasonable and markets itself to a broader array of people it will have a better chance.
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  #32  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2017, 9:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Flyers2001 View Post
Waterfront Square came at a terrible time as the bubble burst. Other issues being over priced and ahead of its time for the neighborhood. The surrounding area is finally catching up.

If this project keeps prices reasonable and markets itself to a broader array of people it will have a better chance.
I'll agree with you that the timing was terrible and that the neighborhood wasn't there yet and is catching fire now, but this is down by Reed St. I wouldn't consider that section of the city to be nearly there yet.

Price obviously would be a factor, but I can't imagine this wouldn't be a reach for this stretch of the Delaware.
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  #33  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2017, 9:39 PM
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This would be the perfect project to receive some of the tax breaks, city and state funding that other projects have applied for.... not only for redeveloping a brownfield, but they could offer 20% of the rentals as low income housing. The hotel and senior living components could help get state/city funding as well.
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  #34  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2017, 2:02 AM
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Originally Posted by summersm343 View Post
I think this is one instance where I want them to downsize the project. It would probably make it more realistic. They should get rid of the 4 towers on the piers, and either work with the city or donate/sell the piers to the city to turn into parks/green space.

That would leave 6 towers and the townhomes. The towers would be: 2 condo towers, 2 rental towers, a senior living tower and a hotel tower, plus the townhomes.

I think it would make much more sense and be much more financially feasible.

The first phase could include a condo, rental, senior living and hotel tower and the majority of the townhomes. The second phase would include the second condo and rental towers and the remainder of the townhomes.
A lot of us "seniors" don't want to be stuck in a senior ghetto. Shame, shame; integration is the way to go. Too many youngsters don't want to face what's naturally happens to most of us, at least to the ones that don't go 'toes up' too early!
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  #35  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2017, 6:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Groundhog View Post
I'll agree with you that the timing was terrible and that the neighborhood wasn't there yet and is catching fire now, but this is down by Reed St. I wouldn't consider that section of the city to be nearly there yet.

Price obviously would be a factor, but I can't imagine this wouldn't be a reach for this stretch of the Delaware.
Without a doubt I agree that the surrounding neighborhood is not "there." That was my point, this project is large enough and has enough components were it would create its own neighborhood.

The similarities to Waterfront Sq stops at, "its on the river", unless this is marketed as luxury condo's like Water Front Sq was. If all they are offering is luxury it has no chance to survive.
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  #36  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2017, 6:37 PM
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Originally Posted by b_ton_ View Post
Its about time a project like this came into the Philadelphia area.
Fantasy? We have had lots of those.
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  #37  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2017, 7:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Flyers2001 View Post
Without a doubt I agree that the surrounding neighborhood is not "there." That was my point, this project is large enough and has enough components were it would create its own neighborhood.

The similarities to Waterfront Sq stops at, "its on the river", unless this is marketed as luxury condo's like Water Front Sq was. If all they are offering is luxury it has no chance to survive.
I don't think there's enough people that want to live in a self-contained neighborhood that's cut off from the rest of the city by highways and urban wasteland. Like me personally, for example. I love Riverfronts and would love to live on the water, but I'd never move to a place like this with i-95 and Columbus being what they are.
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  #38  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2017, 7:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Flyers2001 View Post
Without a doubt I agree that the surrounding neighborhood is not "there." That was my point, this project is large enough and has enough components were it would create its own neighborhood.

The similarities to Waterfront Sq stops at, "its on the river", unless this is marketed as luxury condo's like Water Front Sq was. If all they are offering is luxury it has no chance to survive.
Maybe I missed something, but they typically don't build 200-400 ft towers with less than high end rents/condos in mind.

Yes, they are looking to make it more mixed, but like Waterfront Square, it's main draw is that it's on the Delaware, it's main drawback is that it's stuck in it's own bubble.

To create it's own neighborhood is a tough ask, especially if this is going to be built in phases. I hope they can do it, I'm just not holding my breath.
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  #39  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2017, 3:28 AM
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Maybe I missed something, but they typically don't build 200-400 ft towers with less than high end rents/condos in mind.

Yes, they are looking to make it more mixed, but like Waterfront Square, it's main draw is that it's on the Delaware, it's main drawback is that it's stuck in it's own bubble.

To create it's own neighborhood is a tough ask, especially if this is going to be built in phases. I hope they can do it, I'm just not holding my breath.
The problem here is that the Delaware has yet to prove itself as a powerful enough draw. To make things worse, there are so many competing projects in so many places on the riverfront that they essentially kill each other off. Planners tried to address that by instituting a height limit (thereby limiting a single project's market capture, which should get more projects built in any given bull phase), but between this, that Renaissance Plaza proposal, and even the thing PMC got built by the BFB, developers are clearly not caring one bit about that. And the consequence -- things aren't getting built -- is showing.
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  #40  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2017, 7:13 PM
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Originally Posted by hammersklavier View Post
The problem here is that the Delaware has yet to prove itself as a powerful enough draw. To make things worse, there are so many competing projects in so many places on the riverfront that they essentially kill each other off. Planners tried to address that by instituting a height limit (thereby limiting a single project's market capture, which should get more projects built in any given bull phase), but between this, that Renaissance Plaza proposal, and even the thing PMC got built by the BFB, developers are clearly not caring one bit about that. And the consequence -- things aren't getting built -- is showing.
The city's plan is to stretch development horizontally instead of vertically in order to create a continuous string of development along the entire riverfront. A by-product of this approach limits the number of units any one project can have. Essentially, the government is saying to developers to divide and share the market equally between their projects. Given that developers are in business to make money, it shouldn't be surprising that they want to maximize their own projects rather than play nice and share. And as Hammer alluded to, the market size for people wanting to live on the Delaware is small, so naturally, developers are going to be competitive.
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