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  #81  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2017, 5:14 PM
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Originally Posted by summersm343 View Post
The Residence Inn directly to the West of this tower is 374 feet tall.

This tower looks to be about 490-500 FT.
Thanks for that - saves me the trouble of looking up the Residence Inn's height

So, according to the rendering, the 374-foot tall Residence Inn is about level with the top of the 26th level of this proposal. That makes this building's average floor height 14.38 feet - which is about right for a commercial tower.

So can we extrapolate, then, that this proposal at 14.38' x 38 stories would be about 547' tall? I might be doing the building diagram soon, so want to have the estimated height as close as possible
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  #82  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2017, 5:22 PM
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Thanks for that - saves me the trouble of looking up the Residence Inn's height

So, according to the rendering, the 374-foot tall Residence Inn is about level with the top of the 26th level of this proposal. That makes this building's average floor height 14.38 feet - which is about right for a commercial tower.

So can we extrapolate, then, that this proposal at 14.38' x 38 stories would be about 547' tall? I might be doing the building diagram soon, so want to have the estimated height as close as possible
Sounds good to me. I will change the thread title to reflect the estimated height.
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  #83  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2017, 5:45 PM
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  #84  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2017, 9:00 PM
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Isn't that exactly how tall City Hall is?
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  #85  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2017, 9:01 PM
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Isn't that exactly how tall City Hall is?
One foot shorter if the height is accurate. Hopefully they'll make it a foot TALLER than City Hall
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  #86  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2017, 10:43 PM
3rd&Brown 3rd&Brown is offline
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Originally Posted by blorkishdork View Post
I will have to agree that 13th and Market is definitely the better location over 22nd and Market. I work at 24th and Walnut and often get off at the 22nd street trolley stop, there is nothing around. You are in this weird place where you are not quite on Rittenhouse or in the CBD. There is just nothing around except residential buildings and the occasional food spot. With that said I love where I work, during good weather I love running the trail during lunch.
I agree with everything everyone is saying.

But my underlying point is that it was only months, maybe a year ago, that common parlance about East Market was that it was the seventh circle of hell, replete with wig shops and homeless people with nothing for people to do and nowhere to go. Yadda yadda.

Further, if it were so much more desirable (which I agree is true), then why has it taken this long to develop?

Obviously, perception of the area has changed. And rather quickly.

This is the only point I'm making.
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  #87  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2017, 1:17 AM
jjv007 jjv007 is offline
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Originally Posted by Late1 View Post
Thanks for that - saves me the trouble of looking up the Residence Inn's height

So, according to the rendering, the 374-foot tall Residence Inn is about level with the top of the 26th level of this proposal. That makes this building's average floor height 14.38 feet - which is about right for a commercial tower.

So can we extrapolate, then, that this proposal at 14.38' x 38 stories would be about 547' tall? I might be doing the building diagram soon, so want to have the estimated height as close as possible
Good thinking but aren't lower floors or at least the first usually taller? Don't you think that an exact extrapolation would result in a slightly exaggerated projection here? Just splitting hairs, doesn't really matter, simply a thought though.
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  #88  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2017, 10:14 AM
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^It could be exaggerated, but then again a modem 38-story all-commercial tower could easily be 570' (although this rendering certainly doesn't look anything like 570'.)

It's all guesswork until an official elevation with height measurements is released, but if you count the actual occupied floors in the rendering, you won't get 38.

You only reach 38 floors by counting the crown as 2 floors (because the rendering gives the impression that is equal to the height of just about exactly 2 floors) - and the same goes for the 1st floor(s) at ground level and 1st floor(s) just above the podium, where the tower itself actually begins.

So since the rendering seems to show the height divided into 38 roughly-equal segments, and because it shows the neighboring 374' tower matching the 1st 26 segments in height, I'm guessing that those segments are each about 14.38' tall.

It's possible the developer hasn't drawn up a tower that's actually 38 stories - they might only be thinking something like 34 or 35 floors - but because, as you say, certain floors like the ground floor can be significantly taller than the typical floor, they might be quoting a height of 38 floors because the proposal is the equivalent of 38 floors in height.

But yeah, if they were to build this tower exactly as shown in the rendering, and if, say, the heights of both segments in the 2-story crown aren't really the full heights of the office floors, the 547' guesstimate will come in a little high. Then again, if the height of each story is greater than 14.38', the 547' estimate might be too low.
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Last edited by Late1; Jan 11, 2017 at 10:26 AM. Reason: hadn't finished my 1st cup of coffee
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  #89  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2017, 1:13 PM
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Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown View Post
I agree with everything everyone is saying.

But my underlying point is that it was only months, maybe a year ago, that common parlance about East Market was that it was the seventh circle of hell, replete with wig shops and homeless people with nothing for people to do and nowhere to go. Yadda yadda.

Further, if it were so much more desirable (which I agree is true), then why has it taken this long to develop?

Obviously, perception of the area has changed. And rather quickly.

This is the only point I'm making.
the fundamentals of why this is a better location haven't changed. The main thing that has changed is the 1100 block of Market. That has nothing to do with the superior transit access and proximity to RTM and the retail on 13th street as well as Dilworth Park. The 1100 block of market looks much different, but that's really the only major change- and nothing is even open yet nor do we even know what retailers are coming. The location would be better regardless- knowing that East Market and FOP are coming only makes it even more of a winner.
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  #90  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2017, 3:09 PM
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I agree, the area until about 12th Street was never that bad. Macy's, the Convention Center, three hotels, City Hall, RTM, and the 13th Street corridor are all solid anchors that has kept that immediate area vibrant and decent.

Once East Market is complete and 1301 is built, surprise surprise, we'll be looking at a nice canyon of continuous high rises stretching from 11th Street to City Hall. East of 11th, even after the Gallery transformation, the area bound by Market to Chestnut, 11th to 7th, will still need lots of work. But the momentum is there.
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  #91  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2017, 3:21 PM
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I agree, the area until about 12th Street was never that bad. Macy's, the Convention Center, three hotels, City Hall, RTM, and the 13th Street corridor are all solid anchors that has kept that immediate area vibrant and decent.

Once East Market is complete and 1301 is built, surprise surprise, we'll be looking at a nice canyon of continuous high rises stretching from 11th Street to City Hall. East of 11th, even after the Gallery transformation, the area bound by Market to Chestnut, 11th to 7th, will still need lots of work. But the momentum is there.
And it's just the south side of Market. Once the FOP is done, the north side of Market is set right down to the river (Delaware).
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  #92  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2017, 4:23 PM
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And to add to this discussion:

How Residents Are Rearranging the Office Market Furniture

http://www.phillymag.com/business/20...286OZcE8GBg.99

Quote:
Amid the numbers contained in JLL’s latest quarterly report on the Philadelphia office market were some moves that signal that life along Market Street East is about to get more interesting. In fact, it might even lead to the ultimate transformation of the entire length of Center City’s principal thoroughfare into an 18-hour live/work/play environment, if not a 24-hour one.

Two of the big ones were Five Below’s announcement that it will move its headquarters into the Lits Building at 701 Market and Pulver’s later announcement that it will build a speculative office and retail tower at 1301 Market. Coming as both do on the heels of the massive East Market office/residential/retail project, they signal growing interest among office tenants in the eastern stretch of Market.

There’s a good reason for this, said Lauren Gilchrist, vice president and director of research at JLL.

“The most dense concentration of Millennials downtown live in the Washington Square West area, and companies are moving to areas where they think they can best attract skilled talent,” she said. One reason for this rush is that competition for such talent is now fierce: the unemployment rate among the college-educated is 2.5 percent, well below the level considered to be “full employment.” Thus companies are moving to lease both new and renovated space in buildings such as The Bourse, East Market, the Bailey and Biddle buildings and the Steele across from East Market. Many of these buildings fall into the relatively new and highly prized “creative” office category, which commands rents per square foot higher than all but the most prized trophy buildings west of City Hall.

And after such retail projects as the Gallery makeover are thrown into the mix as well, the end result will be a livelier Market East, Gilchrist said.
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  #93  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2017, 4:47 PM
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I agree, the area until about 12th Street was never that bad. Macy's, the Convention Center, three hotels, City Hall, RTM, and the 13th Street corridor are all solid anchors that has kept that immediate area vibrant and decent.

Once East Market is complete and 1301 is built, surprise surprise, we'll be looking at a nice canyon of continuous high rises stretching from 11th Street to City Hall. East of 11th, even after the Gallery transformation, the area bound by Market to Chestnut, 11th to 7th, will still need lots of work. But the momentum is there.
I continue to say a lot of the blame falls on the owners/speculators of the properties on Market. The 1000 block is full of mediocre looking buildings that need serious investment. I know PREIT has purchased a few to hold for future development but it seems like that is a long term play with no improvements coming soon. I just don't understand why these building owners aren't trying to maximize these properties. Same applies to some of the buildings on East Chestnut and 11th street.
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  #94  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2017, 5:25 PM
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I continue to say a lot of the blame falls on the owners/speculators of the properties on Market. The 1000 block is full of mediocre looking buildings that need serious investment. I know PREIT has purchased a few to hold for future development but it seems like that is a long term play with no improvements coming soon. I just don't understand why these building owners aren't trying to maximize these properties. Same applies to some of the buildings on East Chestnut and 11th street.
Could be a lot of things.

Maybe they want to sell at some point soon and cash out. Waiting until the current projects are finished could maximize the number. Maybe they can't afford to improve and are waiting it out for the same reason.

But I think this will happen eventually. The Disney hole HAS to get an offer that can't be refused at some point in the revitalization cycle happening on Market east. Once that shoe drops, those little shops on the south side of market between 7th and 11th will all turn over.

What will be interesting is to see how these blocks would be developed. Most of these buildings are short-stacks. It would be great if we had a bunch of East Market projects but that's a tremendous amount of investment to build 4 blocks of that kind of development.
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  #95  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2017, 7:36 PM
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Originally Posted by 1487 View Post
I continue to say a lot of the blame falls on the owners/speculators of the properties on Market. The 1000 block is full of mediocre looking buildings that need serious investment. I know PREIT has purchased a few to hold for future development but it seems like that is a long term play with no improvements coming soon. I just don't understand why these building owners aren't trying to maximize these properties. Same applies to some of the buildings on East Chestnut and 11th street.
It's absolutely ownership - the Rapaport's singlehandedly stuck it to large swaths of Center City for generations. Thanks guys.

The city is also culpable - I wish leadership was more vocal in publicly addressing/focusing on these types of issues. It's amazing the mountains that can suddenly move when there's Mayoral interest in a particular project/agenda (see Soda Tax/Pre-K).
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  #96  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2017, 8:29 PM
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It's absolutely ownership - the Rapaport's singlehandedly stuck it to large swaths of Center City for generations. Thanks guys.

The city is also culpable - I wish leadership was more vocal in publicly addressing/focusing on these types of issues. It's amazing the mountains that can suddenly move when there's Mayoral interest in a particular project/agenda (see Soda Tax/Pre-K).
Unless a property has violations or in arrears in taxes there aren't many tools that can be used to "force" an owner to build or rehab a building. I don't agree that these buildings look like crap because the city isn't doing enough to force upgrades. The city is responsible for setting conditions conducive to growth and investment and a lot of that is happening in CC. These owners have their own agenda and in many cases seem to be waiting to be bought out.
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  #97  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2017, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Boku View Post
And to add to this discussion:

How Residents Are Rearranging the Office Market Furniture

http://www.phillymag.com/business/20...286OZcE8GBg.99
I'm surprised to hear that more Millennials live in Washington Square West than Rittenhouse/Center City West. I suppose it is cheaper, though.
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  #98  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2017, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by 1487 View Post
I continue to say a lot of the blame falls on the owners/speculators of the properties on Market. The 1000 block is full of mediocre looking buildings that need serious investment. I know PREIT has purchased a few to hold for future development but it seems like that is a long term play with no improvements coming soon. I just don't understand why these building owners aren't trying to maximize these properties. Same applies to some of the buildings on East Chestnut and 11th street.
Because tenants haven't particularly wanted to locate there. With East Market and the Fashion Outlets, 5 Below move to Lit Bros, the 13th and Market development, etc...that should hopefully start to change, and the other side of this block will begin to develop.
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  #99  
Old Posted Jan 12, 2017, 1:32 PM
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Because tenants haven't particularly wanted to locate there. With East Market and the Fashion Outlets, 5 Below move to Lit Bros, the 13th and Market development, etc...that should hopefully start to change, and the other side of this block will begin to develop.
hopefully, but I suspect that will only happen when existing owners are offered a boatload of cash by someone who actually wants to do something.
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  #100  
Old Posted Jan 12, 2017, 2:07 PM
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hopefully, but I suspect that will only happen when existing owners are offered a boatload of cash by someone who actually wants to do something.
Probably right. Though we don't really need large footplates on that side of East Market (we have it with the Gallery on the other side), and some of the existing buildings are pretty interesting (or will be once the hideous tacky signage like "cash for gold" is removed by a better tenant). I'd rather just see a better class of tenant move in and this side of the block remain small footprints like Walnut and Chestnut west of broad. You're likely right, though. These owners may be looking to just cash out, and we'll instead see building demolition for bigger projects.
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