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  #861  
Old Posted Mar 17, 2017, 9:30 PM
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Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker View Post
I got my DNA test results back TONIGHT.

Ireland: 56%
British Isles (which, oddly, overlaps with Ireland on the map): 28%
Scandinavia: 9%

And lots of ones WAY lower than that, all in western Europe.
Seems a Viking got in there at some point, so to speak! I've often whether my mainly Western and Northeastern Scots DNA wouldn't show a good bit of Scandinavian as well.
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  #862  
Old Posted Mar 17, 2017, 10:19 PM
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Ancestry DNA tests have fallen dramatically in cost.. you can get one for $100 now.
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  #863  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2017, 12:44 AM
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There's significant Norse ancestry in the modern Irish, for sure.
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  #864  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2017, 1:49 AM
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I'm getting a DNA test done right now actually (it's being processed as we speak) and I'm quite excited for the result. From my own understanding of my ancestry, I'm a huge grab bag of various European ancestries. I have Irish, English, Scottish, Ashkenazi-Jewish, Quebecois/French-Canadian, and (non-Jewish/Slavic) Polish all confirmed within the past five generations, and I'm quite curious to see how DNA testing will play out with me.

One piece of the puzzle that I've always been curious about.. my skin tone and how my skin reacts to sun are both inconsistent with my known ancestry. Based on the numerous Northern European nations in the mix I should be very pale with skin that is susceptible to sunburn, yet I'm on the darker side of white and I tan very easily. I wonder if there's a piece of Southern European, African, or First Nations ancestry present that I don't know about.
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  #865  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2017, 2:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker View Post
I got my DNA test results back TONIGHT.

Ireland: 56%
British Isles (which, oddly, overlaps with Ireland on the map): 28%
Scandinavia: 9%

And lots of ones WAY lower than that, all in western Europe.
That seems about right for NL, although I would be surprised to have any real Irish in mine. I would like to find out though.

Can someone recommend which one to use for the test?
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  #866  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2017, 3:53 AM
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That seems about right for NL, although I would be surprised to have any real Irish in mine. I would like to find out though.

Can someone recommend which one to use for the test?
ancestry.ca does a popular one. So does 23andme.com. I'd recommend 23andme.

23andme.com has a larger sample size so you'll get a more detailed result, and furthermore, for an extra fee, you can also get a whole battery of health DNA tests from them at the same time.
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  #867  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2017, 1:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker View Post
I got my DNA test results back TONIGHT.

Ireland: 56%
British Isles (which, oddly, overlaps with Ireland on the map): 28%
Scandinavia: 9%

And lots of ones WAY lower than that, all in western Europe.
Not surprised. There is more Scandinavian ancestry in NL than is usually recognized. (Though I highly doubt it's from the Vinland era.)

I've known a couple of people from NL who are keen on family trees and they had some Norwegian and Icelandic origins.
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  #868  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2017, 1:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Not surprised. There is more Scandinavian ancestry in NL than is usually recognized. (Though I highly doubt it's from the Vinland era.)

I've known a couple of people from NL who are keen on family trees and they had some Norwegian and Icelandic origins.

More likely present in the DNA as a component of the Irish ancestry, no? Those Viking raiders had a reputation for getting busy.....
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  #869  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2017, 2:16 PM
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Yeah, from a realpolitik perspective, courting the Muslim vote is a thankless political task.

Muslims aren't a voting bloc like large, historically disenfranchised minorities in the US. I don't think most Muslims would vote for one party over another and, besides, they represent 3.2% of the Canadian population and are scattered across enough ridings that you can't pick up any seats in a FPTP system.

If you stand up in the HoC and vigorously defend the niqab - if that is the hill you choose to die on - then your outcome is:

- Many Muslims - particularly from backgrounds where the niqab isn't a thing - aren't swayed to vote for you on this policy alone;
- You alienate a large chunk of Quebeckers who actually do determine seats in a FPTP;
- You might sway a small minority of urban, Anglo voters who would've voted for you anyway and, again, don't determine seats.
I think it's probably a mistake to view the Liberal and NDP support for the niqab in isolation and to think it's primarily about the Muslim vote. These parties would support the Sikh turban and kirpan or some other religious symbolism as well if it was being debated.

So it's not about the niqab or the kirpan, but about the broader concept of tolerance for diversity. This is a huge part of the bread and butter of these two parties.

It's still electoralist of course: the target audience is still fast-growing immigrant communities who tend to be fairly religious and traditional ("we may not be crazy about the Muslims, but if they leave them alone they'll leave us alone too"), and also that constituency of Canadians who are not of immigrant origins but who subscribe to contemporary globalist principles.

It's a winning proposition. Especially for the Liberals.
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  #870  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2017, 2:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I think it's probably a mistake to view the Liberal and NDP support for the niqab in isolation and to think it's primarily about the Muslim vote. These parties would support the Sikh turban and kirpan or some other religious symbolism as well if it was being debated.

So it's not about the niqab or the kirpan, but about the broader concept of tolerance for diversity. This is a huge part of the bread and butter of these two parties.

It's still electoralist of course: the target audience is still fast-growing immigrant communities who tend to be fairly religious and traditional ("we may not be crazy about the Muslims, but if they leave them alone they'll leave us alone too"), and also that constituency of Canadians who are not of immigrant origins but who subscribe to contemporary globalist principles.

It's a winning proposition. Especially for the Liberals.
I think this is true, especially since Muslims themselves have no unified view on the issue.
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  #871  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2017, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Not surprised. There is more Scandinavian ancestry in NL than is usually recognized. (Though I highly doubt it's from the Vinland era.)

I've known a couple of people from NL who are keen on family trees and they had some Norwegian and Icelandic origins.
It's likely based on last names.


My great great grandmother had a well know nordic name yet was totally irish.
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  #872  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2017, 10:17 PM
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While it is indeed true that Vikings and Danes pillaged the Irish mainland and sent off the prettiest specimens to their various settlements (Icelanders are generally 25% Irish through their maternal lines with negligible Irish blood in their paternal lines, I wonder why ), they also settled extensively in Ireland during the Dark Ages, though not as much as in Northern England.
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  #873  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2017, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by 1overcosc View Post
I'm getting a DNA test done right now actually (it's being processed as we speak) and I'm quite excited for the result. From my own understanding of my ancestry, I'm a huge grab bag of various European ancestries. I have Irish, English, Scottish, Ashkenazi-Jewish, Quebecois/French-Canadian, and (non-Jewish/Slavic) Polish all confirmed within the past five generations, and I'm quite curious to see how DNA testing will play out with me.
Don't put too much stock into it.


If anthropologist can't figure out the link between migrations and genetics you can't really trust a website.



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Originally Posted by 1overcosc View Post
One piece of the puzzle that I've always been curious about.. my skin tone and how my skin reacts to sun are both inconsistent with my known ancestry. Based on the numerous Northern European nations in the mix I should be very pale with skin that is susceptible to sunburn, yet I'm on the darker side of white and I tan very easily. I wonder if there's a piece of Southern European, African, or First Nations ancestry present that I don't know about.
Skin tone is a really poor indicator of ethnic background.

Skin tone is one of those rare traits that can evolve quite quickly.

There's actually a rather popular theory gaining steam that skin color might be a near cosmetic feature of our evolution. Someone largely removed from true survival based genetics.
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  #874  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2017, 10:54 PM
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Don't put too much stock into it.


If anthropologist can't figure out the link between migrations and genetics you can't really trust a website.
The extent to which specific genes can be connected to specific nationalities is somewhat limited (which is why, for example, you get "Scandanavian" instead of "Swedish"), and there were some very wild stabs of guesses that geneticists made in the early days of sequencing technology, but today's ancestry tests are accurate for the level of detail they provide.
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  #875  
Old Posted Apr 10, 2017, 5:40 PM
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The story in the local news goes like this: "Islamophobia presentation offers safe space to ask questions and learn about Islam."

With an accompanying photo:


http://www.stratfordbeaconherald.com...rn-about-islam

My question is: Have things changed so much from when I was a teenager? Because if I try to envision myself as a 13-year-old kid I can't help but think that I'd be mortified to be associated with this group of adults. I was embarrassed enough by my parents, as most kids were. I can't imagine how horrified I would have been if my dad wore a dress with running shoes.

Of course, you can unpack this pretty easily. The pressure to conform is probably a lot stronger in a place like Stratford where you stand out like a sore thumb. The Indian kids with a Hindu background on my street have essentially shed their ethnic origins. I'll never forget gushing once to the girl how much I loved Indian food. She frowned and said: "I don't eat Indian food," and it dawned on me just how patronizing I must have sounded to this preteen kid. Yikes.

Meanwhile, in a place like Toronto you've got a large community no matter what your ethnic origin, a situation that tends to inspire a complacent sense of belonging.

On the other hand, in the current global climate Muslims probably perceive themselves as being under siege more so than other ethnic minorities, so even here in Stratford I wouldn't be surprised if most of the kids of Syrian refugees would continue to have a firm sense of their identify as Muslims regardless of what their classmates are up to. Not to mention that Islam is generally a much more strident, aggressive religion that doesn't countenance wavering anyway.

Christians used to be like that (a lot in the U.S. still are), except that back when all the Dutch came over they simply set up their Reformed churches and didn't expect the non-Dutch to join in or care what they were doing on Sundays. Same with the Lutherans. And the Mennonites. Etc.

I guess the optimistic hope is that eventually Islam will blend in and be counted as just another of the various religions offered on the palette, and that there will be just as many cultural Muslims who are secular in all but name as there now are Christians. Somehow I suspect that photos like those above might play a role in moving the next generation of Canadian-raised Muslims away from stridency and toward mainstream Canadian society. At least out here in the provinces, anyway.

Or am I underestimating the hold that identity politics has on people?
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  #876  
Old Posted Apr 10, 2017, 6:27 PM
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Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
The story in the local news goes like this: "Islamophobia presentation offers safe space to ask questions and learn about Islam."

With an accompanying photo:


http://www.stratfordbeaconherald.com...rn-about-islam

My question is: Have things changed so much from when I was a teenager? Because if I try to envision myself as a 13-year-old kid I can't help but think that I'd be mortified to be associated with this group of adults. I was embarrassed enough by my parents, as most kids were. I can't imagine how horrified I would have been if my dad wore a dress with running shoes.

Of course, you can unpack this pretty easily. The pressure to conform is probably a lot stronger in a place like Stratford where you stand out like a sore thumb. The Indian kids with a Hindu background on my street have essentially shed their ethnic origins. I'll never forget gushing once to the girl how much I loved Indian food. She frowned and said: "I don't eat Indian food," and it dawned on me just how patronizing I must have sounded to this preteen kid. Yikes.

Meanwhile, in a place like Toronto you've got a large community no matter what your ethnic origin, a situation that tends to inspire a complacent sense of belonging.

On the other hand, in the current global climate Muslims probably perceive themselves as being under siege more so than other ethnic minorities, so even here in Stratford I wouldn't be surprised if most of the kids of Syrian refugees would continue to have a firm sense of their identify as Muslims regardless of what their classmates are up to. Not to mention that Islam is generally a much more strident, aggressive religion that doesn't countenance wavering anyway.

Christians used to be like that (a lot in the U.S. still are), except that back when all the Dutch came over they simply set up their Reformed churches and didn't expect the non-Dutch to join in or care what they were doing on Sundays. Same with the Lutherans. And the Mennonites. Etc.

I guess the optimistic hope is that eventually Islam will blend in and be counted as just another of the various religions offered on the palette, and that there will be just as many cultural Muslims who are secular in all but name as there now are Christians. Somehow I suspect that photos like those above might play a role in moving the next generation of Canadian-raised Muslims away from stridency and toward mainstream Canadian society. At least out here in the provinces, anyway.

Or am I underestimating the hold that identity politics has on people?
Not sure if this is the right term, but there is also a major "counter-factor" at play. Some young people of these origins may renew with religion (and its personal and external manifestations) as a result of the soul and identity searching they go through in adolescence and young adulthood. I don't want to seem disrespectful or minimizing, but this is not extremely different from how "mods" in the 80s dressed a different way in order to distinguish themselves from the Van Halen-listening mainstream kids.

Back to the topic at hand, and it's not uncommon to find Canadian-born Muslim youth who are more serious about Islam than their parents are. I also personally know girls and young women who wear headscarves (or whatever other religious acoutrement) but whose moms never have done this in their entire lives. (I have it on pretty good authority that such things are often the source of conflict in some families.)
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  #877  
Old Posted Apr 10, 2017, 6:40 PM
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I don't want to seem disrespectful or minimizing, but this is not extremely different from how "mods" in the 80s dressed a different way in order to distinguish themselves from the Van Halen-listening mainstream kids.
Heh, that was me precisely. We cordoned ourselves into our teenage subcultures by how we dressed and what music we listened to. Though this was strictly a teenage thing. My parents certainly weren't mods!

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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Back to the topic at hand, and it's not uncommon to find Canadian-born Muslim youth who are more serious about Islam than their parents are. I also personally know girls and young women who wear headscarves (or whatever other religious acoutrement) but whose moms never have done this in their entire lives. (I have it on pretty good authority that such things are often the source of conflict in some families.)
If we're expecting the generations to clash, it seems to me that the current crop of Muslim immigrants are much more devout than the previous ones were. Which might suggest, hopefully, that the second generation growing up here in Canada will turn secular.

It's interesting that you don't hear stories of Vietnamese kids growing up more devout in their Buddhism than their "boat people" parents were. The children of Communist Chinese immigrants are not really turning to Buddhism or Taosm either, from what I can tell (there's a growing Christian movement in China itself, but its size gets exaggerated by excited evangelicals in the U.S.).
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  #878  
Old Posted Apr 10, 2017, 7:32 PM
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If we're expecting the generations to clash, it seems to me that the current crop of Muslim immigrants are much more devout than the previous ones were. Which might suggest, hopefully, that the second generation growing up here in Canada will turn secular.
Does our zeitgeist allow us to express that this would be desirable? Aren't we just supposed to let things unfold as they will?
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  #879  
Old Posted Apr 10, 2017, 7:34 PM
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If we're expecting the generations to clash, it seems to me that the current crop of Muslim immigrants are much more devout than the previous ones were.
.
The most very recent Muslim immigrants seem more devout, that's for sure. It seems like this change has only happened over the past decade or so.

It's likely a reflection of socio-religious evolution in Muslim countries themselves.
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  #880  
Old Posted Apr 10, 2017, 7:51 PM
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It's interesting that you don't hear stories of Vietnamese kids growing up more devout in their Buddhism than their "boat people" parents were. The children of Communist Chinese immigrants are not really turning to Buddhism or Taosm either, from what I can tell (there's a growing Christian movement in China itself, but its size gets exaggerated by excited evangelicals in the U.S.).
There are likely a series of factors for this.

You mentioned one of them which is the perception that Muslims are being finger-pointed (and even persecuted) globally right now. The feeling of being unfairly treated often leads groups to closing ranks and in turn actually reinforces their identity. Many studies have shown that a hostile environment can be better for the conservation of minority identities and that a more accepting climate can lead to greater assimilation.

There is also as I already mentioned the evolving socio-religious climate in countries of origin, and the accompanying effect on the changing ethos of these communities once in Canada.

In the case of Vietnamese and Chinese kids, one can't say that there is a major trend towards becoming more traditionally religious in their parents' countries of origin.
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