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  #1  
Old Posted Jan 15, 2019, 12:42 PM
Pavlov's Dog Pavlov's Dog is offline
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Hudson City - what if Hudson Co, NJ were a city?

Hudson County, New Jersey features cities like Jersey City and Hoboken. It probably isn't very well known though nationally or internationally despite being right across the Hudson River from Manhattan.

With a population of 691,000 in 2018 (up from 634,000 in 2010) it would rank 21st between Washington DC and Boston. With a density of about 14,700 per mile2 it would rank 3rd after NYC and San Francisco amont cities with more than half a million in population.

It has commuter rail, a subway and a light rail network. It's skyline is comparable to many other medium sized cities. How would it stand in terms of livability? It certainly is booming as New York's so called 6th borough.

Have they ever considered a consolidation? It would certainly put them and New Jersey as a state on the map so to speak in terms of visibility and size.
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  #2  
Old Posted Jan 15, 2019, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Pavlov's Dog View Post
It would certainly put them and New Jersey as a state on the map so to speak in terms of visibility and size.
It still wouldn't be on the map because it's still in NYC's shadow.
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  #3  
Old Posted Jan 15, 2019, 1:01 PM
streetscaper streetscaper is offline
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Shameless plug for my photo thread on Hudson County, NJ!
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  #4  
Old Posted Jan 15, 2019, 1:23 PM
Pavlov's Dog Pavlov's Dog is offline
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Shameless plug for my photo thread on Hudson County, NJ!
Awesome photos! Hudson looks so urban and so diverse.
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  #5  
Old Posted Jan 15, 2019, 2:16 PM
eschaton eschaton is offline
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It came very close to happening - sort of.

After the civil war, there was a movement to unite all of the towns in Hudson County east of the Hackensack River (everything other than modern Kearney, Harrison, and East Newark) into one city. A vote was taken in 1869. Two cities, Jersey City, Hudson City, and Bergen City (which was a township only a year before), agreed to unify in this vote. However, Hoboken, Bayonne, Greenville, Weehauken, West Hoboken, and North Bergen voted against. The defunct municipalities of Union Hill and Union Township voted in favor, but they were not geographically connected to Jersey City. A few years later Greenville changed its mind and joined Jersey City, giving the city its current boundaries.

If West Hoboken had indeed voted in favor of consolation back in 1869, all of modern Union City, West New York, and Guttenberg would have been part of Jersey City, with Hoboken and Weehawken surviving as enclaves surrounded by the city.
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  #6  
Old Posted Jan 15, 2019, 4:05 PM
McBane McBane is offline
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I've had this very thought for a long time. Even the name, Hudson City.

Usually the biggest issue with consolidation is that rich people don't want to subsidize poor people. Everyone knows about the Gold Coast, but inland, I don't know much about these communities. Are there major disparities between the various towns?

But besides that, I'm trying to think of tangible benefits. Municipal spending should come down. Being able to claim you live in the 21st largest city in the country or the largest city in NJ is not a tangible benefit. Representation in congress or the state legislature wouldn't change. What am I missing?
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  #7  
Old Posted Jan 15, 2019, 4:24 PM
eschaton eschaton is offline
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Originally Posted by McBane View Post
I've had this very thought for a long time. Even the name, Hudson City.

Usually the biggest issue with consolidation is that rich people don't want to subsidize poor people. Everyone knows about the Gold Coast, but inland, I don't know much about these communities. Are there major disparities between the various towns?

But besides that, I'm trying to think of tangible benefits. Municipal spending should come down. Being able to claim you live in the 21st largest city in the country or the largest city in NJ is not a tangible benefit. Representation in congress or the state legislature wouldn't change. What am I missing?
There's actually not huge disparities between most of the cities, racially or economially

Bayonne - Lower-middle class white, though increasingly Latino

Jersey City - Tremendously mixed in terms of race and class

Hoboken - White - and getting whiter - and gentrified

Union City/West New York - Both relatively poor and heavily Latino

Guttenberg - Similar to Union City/West New York, but with some wealthy white people living by the Hudson

Weehawken - Mixed, with poor Latinos inland, and wealthy whites/Asians along the river

North Bergen - Mostly Latino, but a bit wealthier than Union City/West New York

Seacaucus - White/middle class suburbia

Kearny - Historically White and lower-middle class, but increasingly getting poorer and more Latino

Harrison - Similar to Kearny, except it has a developing Chinatown area

East Newark - Tiny, lower-middle class Latino borough.

The "wealth corridor" in Hudson County is along the coast - running from downtown Jersey City on up to the Bergen County line, and is where middle class and wealthy whites and Asians move. Even the wealthy/white enclaves like Hoboken and Weehawken have crappy local schools which are much more heavily Latino than the municipalities themselves are, meaning I don't think the local electorate is that attached to them.
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  #8  
Old Posted Jan 15, 2019, 5:32 PM
bossabreezes bossabreezes is offline
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Hudson County is practically another borough of New York even though it's across the Hudson and in another state.

It's booming, and likely will continue to boom for decades to come. Although it once offered a much cheaper option in cost of living, it's quickly becoming very expensive in prime areas, usually not much cheaper than Brooklyn.

The county seems very progressive towards development, and as of yet, does not have a NIMBY culture like you see in some parts of New York. Highrises are sprouting everywhere in the county at this point.

Many of the cities and towns in the county have no distinguishable borders and completely blend in with each other. The only good example of distinct borders is Hoboken and Jersey City, where the rail yards and cliffs sever the urban fabric between the two. There are plans to cap the rail yards, similar to Hudson Yards in New York. The topography of the county is extremely diverse, from marshes on the western border, to steep hills in other parts, cliffs running like a spine through the center, and lowlands along the river. North Bergen is known as being one of the hilliest cities in the country, along with SF. Driving there during a winter snowstorm would be terrifying.

It's quite a cool place. Gone are the days when Jersey City was regarded as being a poor dump, and is now known for it's great restaurants and cultural options. It definitely packs a significant punch for it's population and certainly beats almost any city in the country in terms of what it offers for it's population. If you live in Jersey City and work in Jersey City (which is a huge Wall Street outpost) there is no reason to ever to go Manhattan.
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  #9  
Old Posted Jan 15, 2019, 6:28 PM
Pavlov's Dog Pavlov's Dog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McBane View Post
I've had this very thought for a long time. Even the name, Hudson City.

Usually the biggest issue with consolidation is that rich people don't want to subsidize poor people. Everyone knows about the Gold Coast, but inland, I don't know much about these communities. Are there major disparities between the various towns?

But besides that, I'm trying to think of tangible benefits. Municipal spending should come down. Being able to claim you live in the 21st largest city in the country or the largest city in NJ is not a tangible benefit. Representation in congress or the state legislature wouldn't change. What am I missing?
Like you say municipal spending could become much more efficient and effective. Whether that translates to lower taxes and/or better services is a good opportunity.

When you cut out a layer of government and combine this many municipalities a lot of fat can be trimmed. I imagine that there is a lot of duplication of services and staffing that could be combined to provide better services at lower rates. For both citizens and businesses it is also beneficial to cut down on the number of bureaucracies you have to deal with.

Given the development, growth and positive trend going on there currently, together with baby boomers retiring from local government jobs, now is a very opportune time to consolidate.
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  #10  
Old Posted Jan 15, 2019, 9:33 PM
jd3189 jd3189 is offline
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Heck, what if Hudson County was a part of NYC as the official 6th borough? I’m surprised through that it doesn’t have a million total.


But honestly, it would make sense if a merge/ annexation ever happened (baring legalities between two states, etc). Manhattan would have a more central location in the overall city. The subway would better serve the Jersey side along with PATH. The Statue of Liberty would be officially considered completely inside the city. More inter-connectedness between NY, NJ, and the rest of the NE Megalopolis.
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  #11  
Old Posted Jan 15, 2019, 10:00 PM
bossabreezes bossabreezes is offline
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I like that Hudson County is another state than New York.

It's shocking to outsiders (and some obnoxious New Yorkers who think Hudson County is ''far'' because it's in another state). As far as I'm concerned, no other state has as much surprising urbanity and assets per square mile than New Jersey.

That being said, I think the county/state consolidation makes a lot of sense, and am in favor of it. Plus Hudson City has a nice ring to it.
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  #12  
Old Posted Jan 15, 2019, 10:48 PM
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I’m sure the burbs would be happy to be on the city tax rolls.
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  #13  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2019, 12:54 AM
BrownTown BrownTown is offline
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Originally Posted by bossabreezes View Post
I like that Hudson County is another state than New York.

It's shocking to outsiders (and some obnoxious New Yorkers who think Hudson County is ''far'' because it's in another state). As far as I'm concerned, no other state has as much surprising urbanity and assets per square mile than New Jersey.

That being said, I think the county/state consolidation makes a lot of sense, and am in favor of it. Plus Hudson City has a nice ring to it.
It's, "far" because the subway doesn't go there despite the fact that it seems like such a no-brainer for it to extend into NJ if not for the politics involved.
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  #14  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2019, 1:21 AM
bossabreezes bossabreezes is offline
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If you take the PATH, you quite literally get to Manhattan faster than probably 90% of Brooklyn and 80% of Queens.

Mileage wise Hudson is obviously closer as well, but being in the PATH nodes is pretty much as good as it gets. You can get to Midtown and Downtown faster than anywhere in Northern Manhattan, The Bronx, most of Queens and pretty much all of Brooklyn.

It's all purely mental and snobbery.

That being said, it would be great to have the Subway extended into Hudson County. It will never happen, but it would definitely be nice. If that happened, the county would double in population in 10 years most likely.
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  #15  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2019, 1:41 AM
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^^^^

Great post and very true.

Oh the dreaded streets of Brooklyn. A 5 mile journey on the BQE or Belt Parkway is an ordeal some days. Not on the highway, and taking the local street?

PATH is much quicker indeed for NJ residents.

When driving in NYC, time is required. A location might only be 5 miles away, but it could take you an hour or more.

Just mind numbing traffic. Enough to cause Catatonic symptoms.

Now some might think of taking the local routes, but its a trap! The illegally double parked trucks (on almost every street), the lights that are green for a couple of nanoseconds, and the conveniently placed road work event will drive some mad.
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  #16  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2019, 1:51 AM
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Originally Posted by bossabreezes View Post
If you take the PATH, you quite literally get to Manhattan faster than probably 90% of Brooklyn and 80% of Queens.
Only from the corridor PATH runs on, not from any arbitrary point in Husdon County. Although you can take NJT from Secaucus into Penn or take HBLR to PATH from many more locations but that's not exactly very speedy.

Also PATH sure is a bitch on nights and weekends which is basically the only time I ever go to NYC so that sucks.
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  #17  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2019, 1:59 AM
bossabreezes bossabreezes is offline
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Originally Posted by BrownTown View Post
Only from the corridor PATH runs on, not from any arbitrary point in Husdon County. Although you can take NJT from Secaucus into Penn or take HBLR to PATH from many more locations but that's not exactly very speedy.

Also PATH sure is a bitch on nights and weekends which is basically the only time I ever go to NYC so that sucks.
If you take NJT from Secaucus, you'll be at Penn Station in +/- 15 mins. The same or less than an express train from downtown Brooklyn.

Downtown Jersey City to World Trade is 4 minutes. From Journal Square, 10 minutes.

The weekends can be tough, but generally after midnight the longest you'll wait for a train is 20 mins. This might seem like a long time, but it's important to remember that PATH trains work on a tight time schedule and are almost never late. Good luck on the MTA, those trains show up whenever they please after a certain hour. It balances out.

The random places in Hudson County without rail lines certainly miss out. That's why you don't see as much development in those areas. But don't be fooled, the places in Hudson with easy access to Manhattan have Studio apartments renting for $3,000 and 1br condos selling for over $1M.

Also, as a side note- Hoboken has been regarded as a ''cool place'' by most New Yorkers for probably 10 years now. Jersey City has just recently came out of the shadow, and people in NYC are just now seeing the cool factor. It has a much more diverse built form than Hoboken and offers literally almost everything Manhattan offers.

If I were to recommend a new comer, or anyone, who is looking to move to NY, I would strongly recomend they consider Jersey City or Hoboken, with preference for Jersey City.
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  #18  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2019, 2:12 AM
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Was born in Jersey City and grew up in W. New York & Union City.
It's weird to hear that it is poor now since it was mostly middle class when I lived there.
My family never owned a car while we lived there either since it is so walkable.
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  #19  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2019, 2:34 AM
eschaton eschaton is offline
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Was born in Jersey City and grew up in W. New York & Union City.
It's weird to hear that it is poor now since it was mostly middle class when I lived there.
My family never owned a car while we lived there either since it is so walkable.
Poor might be an overstatement.

Household income by municipality:

Hoboken: $118,479
Weehawken: $105,919
Secaucus: $94,160
North Bergen: $65,654
Jersey City: $63,227
Kearny: $61,558
East Newark: $59,038
Harrison: $58,047
Bayonne: $54,862
Guttenberg: $54,368
West New York: $50,334
Union City: $42,483

Even the poorest municipality in Hudson County is significantly wealthier than Newark (median household income of only $31,100). Obviously there are some poor neighborhoods, but it runs the range from lower-middle/working class to gentrified.
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  #20  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2019, 2:50 AM
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Hudson, Union, Bergen, Passaic, and Essex counties: population is 3.5 million.

New Jersey City - third largest city in the country

An unknown cultural, economic, scientific, and corporate powerhouse
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