Transit Fantasies

[Express691]

Originally Posted by YVR_Future

Integration of the Compass system at a regional level would be great, especially if it could work with BC Ferries as well.

As for names, I'd suggest something like CoastalLink (CoastLink)? as ideal.

For a short time in the 1990s, the CMBC was called Coast Mountain BusLink

[Vantage]

Originally Posted by YVR_Future

Integration of the Compass system at a regional level would be great, especially if it could work with BC Ferries as well.

As for names, I'd suggest something like CoastalLink (CoastLink)? as ideal.

Why not stick with Compass province wide?
Imagine if BC Ferries was handed over to Translink. I know it's extremely unlikely but still.

[YVR_Future]

Originally Posted by Vantage

Why not stick with Compass province wide?
Imagine if BC Ferries was handed over to Translink. I know it's extremely unlikely but still.

Ah, for names I meant the hypothetical regional transit authority, not renaming Compass.

It'd really only make sense for Translink to get the South coast portion of BC Ferries' routes. It'd be a bit odd for Translink to be operating up in Haida Gwaii, wouldn't it? Or, vice versa, BC Ferries getting the Marine aspects of Translink's operations (really just the Seabus) and setting up some sort of intra-Vancouver ferry service.

[LeftCoaster]

This is somewhat in response to the conversation going on about traffic/transit on the north shore, but I always thought this would be the ultimate build out of any skytrain service on the North Shore, assuming that a tunnel under the widest portion of Burrard Inlet is infeasible.




It's really just 1.5 lines as the east west interlines so you can go on the black line and traverse the north shore or go on any of the other interlines to head north south. I think it allows for maximum connectivity with the least amount of track etc...

The red and blue lines head through stanley park into downtown and presumably somewhere south of downtown, be it on the west or east side.

The green and purple lines hit the future Hastings Line then head to Brentwood and become a Willingdon Line, linking the north shore to Brentwood, Metrotown and potentially heading along 41st to Oakridge.

Of course this all is just a pure fantasy and assumes a huge amount of new density for the North Shore, which is the biggest fantasy of all.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

This is somewhat in response to the conversation going on about traffic/transit on the north shore, but I always thought this would be the ultimate build out of any skytrain service on the North Shore, assuming that a tunnel under the widest portion of Burrard Inlet is infeasible.




It's really just 1.5 lines as the east west interlines so you can go on the black line and traverse the north shore or go on any of the other interlines to head north south. I think it allows for maximum connectivity with the least amount of track etc...

The red and blue lines head through stanley park into downtown and presumably somewhere south of downtown, be it on the west or east side.

The green and purple lines hit the future Hastings Line then head to Brentwood and become a Willingdon Line, linking the north shore to Brentwood, Metrotown and potentially heading along 41st to Oakridge.

Of course this all is just a pure fantasy and assumes a huge amount of new density for the North Shore, which is the biggest fantasy of all.

That configuration looks a lot like BART.

[waves]

Your diagram make sense with everything except Braemar? Braemar Road is way up high on Lonsdale. if you meant the old middle school, that is in the other direction from Lynn Valley. I would just go from HJ to LV direct.

[YVR_Future]

What about an extension past Dundarave to Eagle Harbour & Horseshoe Bay?

[sweetnhappy]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

This is somewhat in response to the conversation going on about traffic/transit on the north shore, but I always thought this would be the ultimate build out of any skytrain service on the North Shore, assuming that a tunnel under the widest portion of Burrard Inlet is infeasible.




It's really just 1.5 lines as the east west interlines so you can go on the black line and traverse the north shore or go on any of the other interlines to head north south. I think it allows for maximum connectivity with the least amount of track etc...

The red and blue lines head through stanley park into downtown and presumably somewhere south of downtown, be it on the west or east side.

The green and purple lines hit the future Hastings Line then head to Brentwood and become a Willingdon Line, linking the north shore to Brentwood, Metrotown and potentially heading along 41st to Oakridge.

Of course this all is just a pure fantasy and assumes a huge amount of new density for the North Shore, which is the biggest fantasy of all.

Introducing that much interlining is just asking for trouble. Why do you think TransLink removed the interlining of the Millennium Line with the Expo Line? It wasn't just because of the Evergreen Extension (though that was the primary reason). On any interlined sections, if there is any kind of stoppage or breakdown it affects both lines that interline and not just at that point - I can remember problems on either of the interlined Expo/Millennium caused havoc for most of the other line, even if the problem was toward the end of or on one of the non-interlined portions. And this would be even worse for the stations where there are 3 'lines' meeting. Better to have a single line east-west with separate lines going north-south. Even a loop between the north shore and a Hastings Line could be troublesome. Just my 2-cents on the reality of this idea. Don't fear dreaming though.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by sweetnhappy

Introducing that much interlining is just asking for trouble. Why do you think TransLink removed the interlining of the Millennium Line with the Expo Line? It wasn't just because of the Evergreen Extension (though that was the primary reason). On any interlined sections, if there is any kind of stoppage or breakdown it affects both lines that interline and not just at that point - I can remember problems on either of the interlined Expo/Millennium caused havoc for most of the other line, even if the problem was toward the end of or on one of the non-interlined portions. And this would be even worse for the stations where there are 3 'lines' meeting. Better to have a single line east-west with separate lines going north-south. Even a loop between the north shore and a Hastings Line could be troublesome. Just my 2-cents on the reality of this idea. Don't fear dreaming though.

Right - for the sake of minimizing points of failure, it might be best to have just a dedicated North Shore line and one line per crossing (three total), with limited twinned sections like the Expo branch.

So which two do we keep? I'm guessing red and green.

[Pinion]

Originally Posted by YVR_Future

What about an extension past Dundarave to Eagle Harbour & Horseshoe Bay?

There's no physical room and even going one foot past Park Royal is hilariously optimistic.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Right - for the sake of minimizing points of failure, it might be best to have just a dedicated North Shore line and one line per crossing (three total), with limited twinned sections like the Expo branch.

So which two do we keep? I'm guessing red and green.

I'd be more inclined to keep the black east - west route and have 'southern' routes connect to the line (requiring a transfer). Is there really that much density on the North Shore to warrant multiple lines? Also what's the grade as you travel further inland to Lynn Valley - for Skytrain we need to keep to a limit of 6%.

[waves]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Also what's the grade as you travel further inland to Lynn Valley - for Skytrain we need to keep to a limit of 6%.

The grades inland are not an issue. The grades from Lonsdale to 13th certainly are though.

Pinion is right that Skytrain any farther than Park Royal is dead in the water.

[wrenegade]

Also confused about the Braemar stop. And ya, Skytrain directing up Lonsdale from the Quay to 13th doesn't work. I believe the average grade is around 8% (at least until 11th). Keith/13th from Marine to Lonsdale is about 6% on the nose. Totally agree that anything past Park Royal is a non-starter, and going east of Maplewood would both be very expensive and face heavy local opposition.

[LeftCoaster]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Right - for the sake of minimizing points of failure, it might be best to have just a dedicated North Shore line and one line per crossing (three total), with limited twinned sections like the Expo branch.

So which two do we keep? I'm guessing red and green.

While I see your point I disagree and think that the benefits of interlining and providing the direct routes far outweigh the operational issues. A direct ride from Lonsdale east or west through the metro has a very high utility and to transfer easily onto an intra-Northshore line outweighs the issues in my opinion. If you really hate it then remove the black line and then the only interlined portion is Lonsdale.

Originally Posted by Pinion

There's no physical room and even going one foot past Park Royal is hilariously optimistic.

Ya I thought even extending it to Dundarave was silly, but then again this whole thing is a bit silly.

Originally Posted by Sheba

I'd be more inclined to keep the black east - west route and have 'southern' routes connect to the line (requiring a transfer). Is there really that much density on the North Shore to warrant multiple lines? Also what's the grade as you travel further inland to Lynn Valley - for Skytrain we need to keep to a limit of 6%.

There's not even enough density to warrant one line. That's why i said this is a fantasy and would require huge increases in density, which the very regressive communities on the North Shore would never allow.

The problem with the transfer is a lot of the density on the north shore lives along the lonsdale spine. If there were transfers along the black line someone would need to bus to the black line, take the black line then transfer at Park Royal or Phibbs. Kinda ruins the utility of the route. Much better with the black line removed and the other lines remaining.

The grade is the real valid point, but I don't have the information on it so if anyone can confirm what the grades on Lonsdale it can be addressed.

Originally Posted by wrenegade

Also confused about the Braemar stop. And ya, Skytrain directing up Lonsdale from the Quay to 13th doesn't work. I believe the average grade is around 8% (at least until 11th). Keith/13th from Marine to Lonsdale is about 6% on the nose. Totally agree that anything past Park Royal is a non-starter, and going east of Maplewood would both be very expensive and face heavy local opposition.

Braemar just seemed like a cool name for a stop somewhere between Lonsdale Ave and Lynn Valley Centre on 29th. I suppose I should have been more descriptive and less whimsical.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

While I see your point I disagree and think that the benefits of interlining and providing the direct routes far outweigh the operational issues. A direct ride from Lonsdale east or west through the metro has a very high utility and to transfer easily onto an intra-Northshore line outweighs the issues in my opinion. If you really hate it then remove the black line and then the only interlined portion is Lonsdale.

Sure, but it's not direct. The general consensus is that the commute between Park Royal and Phibbs is the priority; here, anybody on the green/purple trying to get to Park Royal (or the red/blue to Phibbs) has to switch lines anyway. Might as well keep the black line, then have one very frequent line at each Narrows. It's not like transfers are evil.

At the very least, keep the blue as-is, then have the Second Narrows line go to Ambleside and beyond (twinning the platforms between Lonsdale and Park Royal, of course).

[LeftCoaster]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Sure, but it's not direct. The general consensus is that the commute between Park Royal and Phibbs is the priority; here, anybody on the green/purple trying to get to Park Royal (or the red/blue to Phibbs) has to switch lines anyway. Might as well keep the black line, then have one very frequent line at each Narrows. It's not like transfers are evil.

At the very least, keep the blue as-is, then have the Second Narrows line go to Ambleside and beyond (twinning the platforms between Lonsdale and Park Royal, of course).

Well you don't need to transfer lines if you live on the green or blue, just trains as it interlines. So step off and wait for the next train much like you would to get to YVR if you were on a Bridgeport bound train.

And I really don't know how many people are commuting across the shore vs across the inlet, I'd imagine its much more common to commute across the inlet which is why I structured the lines this way. If it isn't more common to cross across the inlet today it sure will be tomorrow with the continued increase in importance of downtown and Burnaby as an employment centres and the relative decline in the North Shore's employment base.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

Well you don't need to transfer lines if you live on the green or blue, just trains as it interlines. So step off and wait for the next train much like you would to get to YVR if you were on a Bridgeport bound train.

If the North Shore SkyTrains start off with the Canada Line's number of trainsets, that's a 3-6 minute wait. Might as well ride the north-south line of choice down to the black east-west; without the branches, they're all running at maximum frequency, meaning a transfer only takes 2-4 minutes.

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

And I really don't know how many people are commuting across the shore vs across the inlet, I'd imagine its much more common to commute across the inlet which is why I structured the lines this way. If it isn't more common to cross across the inlet today it sure will be tomorrow with the continued increase in importance of downtown and Burnaby as an employment centres and the relative decline in the North Shore's employment base.

And yet how many (potential) transit users are commuting to/from Deep Cove or West Van? Best to prioritize the Lynn Valley and east-west corridors.

[LeftCoaster]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Best to prioritize the Lynn Valley and east-west corridors.

Agreed, I'd do it in this order:

Green --> Blue --> Red --> Purple

They're all incremental adds once the green is built. And once the lines are built out you can run as many E/W 'black' trains as demand dictates. They could come every third train or two of every depending on the demand.

Of course you'd need to build the Hastings line before any of this can make sense.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

There's not even enough density to warrant one line. That's why i said this is a fantasy and would require huge increases in density, which the very regressive communities on the North Shore would never allow.

The problem with the transfer is a lot of the density on the north shore lives along the lonsdale spine. If there were transfers along the black line someone would need to bus to the black line, take the black line then transfer at Park Royal or Phibbs. Kinda ruins the utility of the route. Much better with the black line removed and the other lines remaining.

The grade is the real valid point, but I don't have the information on it so if anyone can confirm what the grades on Lonsdale it can be addressed.

Looking at a map I can't see there being enough density east of Phibbs - that makes Phibbs to Park Royal as the only area worth putting in Skytrain.

You can always use this topographic map (I don't have a math brain for figuring out grade percent).

[LeftCoaster]

There's plenty of places to put a ton of density around the stations I outlined, if the political will was there.

It isn't so it won't happen any time soon, but as the metro grows and densifies it will need to look to new areas to fill in and this could easily be one of them. It's not really much further from downtown than Brentwood/Holdom as the crow flies,so if it had easy transit access it should be a prime candidate for infill.