Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[JHikka]

If we could keep the thread on topic that would be great. Thanks.

[Hackslack]

I believe that our governments also have the responsibility to stand up for our culture, and a major part of our culture are the sports hockey and football. A reasonable way to continue to hold up these cultural institutions is through providing funding for stadiums, for some of the best athletes in the world, and with respect to hockey, the best league and players in the world.

I'm not saying governments should outright pay for these stadiums, but I think it's resonable to expect them to contribute to these cultural institutions.

[elly63]

Also, it's made out that it's only the professional team that gets any benefits. You always read about the tired excuse that the only thing that goes on there is 10 or whatever pro games a year. That is patently ridiculous.

Just like civic arenas rent out ice time, stadiums can rent out time to USports, local soccer associations etc, minor football and any other group that needs that large space. Put a bubble up, like many places have, and you have winter use as well. Here's an old shot of FCS in Ottawa before the refurb.

[osmo]

Originally Posted by elly63

Also, it's made out that it's only the professional team that gets any benefits. You always read about the tired excuse that the only thing that goes on there is 10 or whatever pro games a year. That is patently ridiculous.

Just like civic arenas rent out ice time, stadiums can rent out time to USports, local soccer associations etc, minor football and any other group that needs that large space. Put a bubble up, like many places have, and you have winter use as well. Here's an old shot of FCS in Ottawa before the refurb.

You can build a civic facility with a turf and bubble combo for less than $10 million, if there is a need any CFL city could build one easily.

CFL simply needs to get sophisticated and think big picture to ensure franchises can build facilities. Every other lesgue has some sort of grant/fund scheme or even a favorable loan agreement for the debt.

The CFL does not have those resources but they can think outside the box and persue land and stadium combos that are building commercial and residential along side the stadiums. If the CFL was a central joint entity it could make this happen but it's current dated model of 9 little fiefdoms will end up sinking this league as they will struggle to take on large scale issues such as the Calgary stadium situation or the looming CTE legal storm.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by Hackslack

I believe that our governments also have the responsibility to stand up for our culture, and a major part of our culture are the sports hockey and football. A reasonable way to continue to hold up these cultural institutions is through providing funding for stadiums, for some of the best athletes in the world, and with respect to hockey, the best league and players in the world.

I'm not saying governments should outright pay for these stadiums, but I think it's resonable to expect them to contribute to these cultural institutions.

Hockey is important to our identity and of significance but, football? And, sports a major part of our culture?!? I'm sure there's no deficiency in public dollars being funneled into hockey programs over the arts either. An NHL club is not a cultural institution. It's private enterprise. I'm going to say you're being just a little biased towards the things you like.

Our biggest hindrance to producing top talent is the lack of affordability of hockey. Skill takes a backstage to wealth. We're obsessed with size as well although that more understandable. Building half billion dollar shines is just more of how we've lost focus from what really matters if we want to remain the dominate hockey nation.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by osmo

The CFL does not have those resources but they can think outside the box and persue land and stadium combos that are building commercial and residential along side the stadiums.

See Ottawa and new Halifax stadium, that IS what they are doing.

[Hackslack]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

Hockey is important to our identity and of significance but, football? And, sports a major part of our culture?!? I'm sure there's no deficiency in public dollars being funneled into hockey programs over the arts either. An NHL club is not a cultural institution. It's private enterprise. I'm going to say you're being just a little biased towards the things you like.

Our biggest hindrance to producing top talent is the lack of affordability of hockey. Skill takes a backstage to wealth. We're obsessed with size as well although that more understandable. Building half billion dollar shines is just more of how we've lost focus from what really matters if we want to remain the dominate hockey nation.

Football has more of a history in this country than hockey. It's obviously not as big as hockey these days, but the CFL league does garner the second most attention in terms of sports in this country. Facts are facts.

Having a team representing this city in the best hockey league in the world is certainly of cultural significance. Would you say the same thing of Manchester United, that it is not part of that city's culture... what is the first thing you think of when someone speaks of Manchester, or the Premier League. Man U is most certainly a large part of the cultural face of Manchester and Old Trafford. The same can be said for any NHL team in this country.

I agree our biggest hindrance is lack of funding. That's why it surprises me that the government is willing to spend $6 million on a hockey rink that can't even be used for hockey. A solution to helping children get into the game is definitely not to cut spending on sports venues. Matter of fact it should be the opposite. They should try to find a way to incorporate more acces to everyone to these facilities. I don't have any figures currently in front of me, but I do know the flames, like every other team in this country, Donets millions to youth sporting programs, and advocating for inclusivity for everyone. See You Can Play, and the important role the flames and Brian Burke have in helping LGBTQ access and play the game.

I do like hockey and Football, Like at least 50% of this country's population.... what were the ratings in the Canada gold medal hockey game in Vancouver, something like offer half this country's population! You're damn right governments should be helping fund such facilities.

[osmo]

Originally Posted by elly63

See Ottawa and new Halifax stadium, that IS what they are doing.

Ottawa is the model, why can't Calgary follow?

Halifax is just hot air until a shovel is in the ground, let us be patient with that one for now.

[osmo]

Originally Posted by Hackslack

Football has more of a history in this country than hockey. It's obviously not as big as hockey these days, but the CFL league does garner the second most attention in terms of sports in this country. Facts are facts.

Having a team representing this city in the best hockey league in the world is certainly of cultural significance. Would you say the same thing of Manchester United, that it is not part of that city's culture... what is the first thing you think of when someone speaks of Manchester, or the Premier League. Man U is most certainly a large part of the cultural face of Manchester and Old Trafford. The same can be said for any NHL team in this country.

I agree our biggest hindrance is lack of funding. That's why it surprises me that the government is willing to spend $6 million on a hockey rink that can't even be used for hockey. A solution to helping children get into the game is definitely not to cut spending on sports venues. Matter of fact it should be the opposite. They should try to find a way to incorporate more acces to everyone to these facilities. I don't have any figures currently in front of me, but I do know the flames, like every other team in this country, Donets millions to youth sporting programs, and advocating for inclusivity for everyone. See You Can Play, and the important role the flames and Brian Burke have in helping LGBTQ access and play the game.

I do like hockey and Football, Like at least 50% of this country's population.... what were the ratings in the Canada gold medal hockey game in Vancouver, something like offer half this country's population! You're damn right governments should be helping fund such facilities.

You are all over the place using emotion to justify government giving money to private corporations.

EPL clubs are all financed by the club's shareholders. It isn't common for government to build professional sports facilities as the teams want control and the revenues.

If private teams want government money then let the government get equity and a share of the profits. Period.

[Coldrsx]

Stadiums, who needs stadiums! LRT construction closes a road Downtown, hockey breaks out.


www.twitter.com/mikemckinnon

[Hackslack]

Originally Posted by osmo

You are all over the place using emotion to justify government giving money to private corporations.

EPL clubs are all financed by the club's shareholders. It isn't common for government to build professional sports facilities as the teams want control and the revenues.

If private teams want government money then let the government get equity and a share of the profits. Period.

I suppose I do show emotion. As a fan and citizen of this country I think that's justified.

I absolutely agree that governments need to reap the rewards in terms of equity. A deal needs to be put in place that satisfies all parties. I definitely don't expect a government to outright pay for stadiums and not get any benefits.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by Hackslack

Football has more of a history in this country than hockey. It's obviously not as big as hockey these days, but the CFL league does garner the second most attention in terms of sports in this country. Facts are facts.

Having a team representing this city in the best hockey league in the world is certainly of cultural significance. Would you say the same thing of Manchester United, that it is not part of that city's culture... what is the first thing you think of when someone speaks of Manchester, or the Premier League. Man U is most certainly a large part of the cultural face of Manchester and Old Trafford. The same can be said for any NHL team in this country.

I agree our biggest hindrance is lack of funding. That's why it surprises me that the government is willing to spend $6 million on a hockey rink that can't even be used for hockey. A solution to helping children get into the game is definitely not to cut spending on sports venues. Matter of fact it should be the opposite. They should try to find a way to incorporate more acces to everyone to these facilities. I don't have any figures currently in front of me, but I do know the flames, like every other team in this country, Donets millions to youth sporting programs, and advocating for inclusivity for everyone. See You Can Play, and the important role the flames and Brian Burke have in helping LGBTQ access and play the game.

I do like hockey and Football, Like at least 50% of this country's population.... what were the ratings in the Canada gold medal hockey game in Vancouver, something like offer half this country's population! You're damn right governments should be helping fund such facilities.

Some facts are more obscure than others. What exactly does football being older and the second most watch sporting event mean in the context outside of sports?

The wealthy Flames organization is asking for 80% financing for a $400 million arena. What non-for-profit cultural facility has ever got such favourable conditions? And how does a flashy NHL rink serve the youth that can't afford to play? Why not put the monies directly into youth players than waiting for it to trickle down from the Flames organization. The Flames are more likely to put their piddly contributions where it serves them best (visibility and recognition a.k.a. cheap advertising) than where it actually needed.

My neighbour's son broke 3 sticks in one weekend tournament at a cost of $800. His program to build body mass costs another $1000 a month. The average Canadian can't afford this. You can build all the facilities you want. It's not going to make any difference.

Let's not forget Manchester also has some enviable architecture, museums and, galleries to go along with the soccer legacy. They are a lot more people that don't follow the premier league than there are people that do and that is what Manchester is investing in.

You're giving yourself away, "what is the first thing you think of when someone speaks the Premier League." Just keep in mind most people aren't sports fans.

[Hackslack]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

Some facts are more obscure than others. What exactly does football being older and the second most watch sporting event mean in the context outside of sports?

The wealthy Flames organization is asking for 80% financing for a $400 million arena. What non-for-profit cultural facility has ever got such favourable conditions? And how does a flashy NHL rink serve the youth that can't afford to play? Why not put the monies directly into youth players than waiting for it to trickle down from the Flames organization. The Flames are more likely to put their piddly contributions where it serves them best (visibility and recognition a.k.a. cheap advertising) than where it actually needed.

My neighbour's son broke 3 sticks in one weekend tournament at a cost of $800. His program to build body mass costs another $1000 a month. The average Canadian can't afford this. You can build all the facilities you want. It's not going to make any difference.

Let's not forget Manchester also has some enviable architecture, museums and, galleries to go along with the soccer legacy. They are a lot more people that don't follow the premier league than there are people that do and that is what Manchester is investing in.

You're giving yourself away, "what is the first thing you think of when someone speaks the Premier League." Just keep in mind most people aren't sports fans.

All good questions and points that certainly need to be part of the conversations and negotiations.

Football, in context of sports, brings thousands and thousands of people together, every year, all rooting for a common cause. That is to cheat for the home team to win. Look at Toronto FC, Argos, Blue Jays, and any other sports teams across the nation. What other institution can bring tens of thousands out to attend such events to physically cheat on a team, and hundreds of thousands more watching on TV, Every, single, year? Museums? Libraries?

The first non-profit sporting event that comes to mind are the Olympic Games, which almost entirely serves amateur sports during and after the games. Calgary, for example, used to hold international hockey games after the Olympics because it was built to accommodate the larger ice. Millions more were spent to educate people on the history of the Natives in and around Calgary. The Olympic oval in Calgary serves the community far and wide, including the international community as well. Mostly all not for profit.

I'd argue that the pure presence of having an NHL team sparks the interest of hockey in the youth, whereas if their wasn't an NHL team there wouldn't even have kids get into playing the sport. My opinion of course. I'd like to dig up some figures on where and how much monies they contribute to the community, because I don't know exactly, but I do know it is quite significant. Part of their marketing is the mere presence of supporting youth programs, those less fortunate, and those who previously were not necessarily felt accepted to play.

As for your neighbour and the ridiculous amount of money he pays for sticks, really shows he does not know you can buy decent wood stocks for the price of $30-$40 at any Canadian tire, or agraphite sticks at Costco for $50-60 l. Kids do not need to be spending $250 on sticks. Absolutely ridiculous he, or you, would even pretend that is the only option! Tell the kid to go to the gym that costs$60 per month, spend a couple sessions with a trainer for $120 to learn a program, then tell him to find the motivation to do it himself. Ridiculous to think he needs to spend $1000 per month on a body mass building program! Those are terrible arguments regarding the cost of the game. The only time people would spend that extraordinary amount of money on training and sticks is if they were playing top tier junior or college. The kid sounds like a very privileged, spoiled kid if you ask anybody

I am purely speaking in context of sports, and how they add to the overall culture of society. I understand not every is sports fans, but a large large portion are, which society should also try to represent.

Giving myself away... away to what?

[Berklon]

If teams want taxpayers to pay for a new arena/stadium, then the agreement has to be something like this:

- the city gets a healthy lease agreement with the franchise. No subsidising the franchise.
- the city gets 100% revenue from naming rights to their venue
- the city gets 100% revenue from concerts and other non-team related revenue
- the city gets 25% revenue from concessions during the teams games
- the city/taxpayers get free access to the venue for organised amateur leagues

They really can't complain about that - they've got their new arena/stadium and can charge their fans more for tickets.

[Coldrsx]

^good luck with that.

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by Berklon

If teams want taxpayers to pay for a new arena/stadium, then the agreement has to be something like this:

- the city gets a healthy lease agreement with the franchise. No subsidising the franchise.
- the city gets 100% revenue from naming rights to their venue
- the city gets 100% revenue from concerts and other non-team related revenue
- the city gets 25% revenue from concessions during the teams games
- the city/taxpayers get free access to the venue for organised amateur leagues

They really can't complain about that - they've got their new arena/stadium and can charge their fans more for tickets.

Sounds a lot like what the oilers had in rexall.

Northlands kept consession and parking for Oilers games and had all rights to concerts and non hockey related events, and in return the Oilers paid $1 a year rent but got to keep all gate revenue for Oilers games.

I can see why katz wasn't so eager to let Northlands into the new Arena deal

[blueandgoldguy]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

^good luck with that.

Just because Edmonton got bent over for concessions doesn't mean other cities like Calgary have to as well.

[Coldrsx]

A timely update on our CRL...

'The downtown levy is the city’s most recent and best performing development play. City officials already approved spending $487 million on Rogers Place, a new park and drainage upgrades. They estimate private projects complete or under construction since 2015 are worth $4 billion.'

http://edmontonjournal.com/news/loca...f-the-quarters

[speedog]

Comparing the metro areas of Calgary and Edmonton, I sometimes wonder what Calgary has that is considerably better than what one might find in Edmonton because it's readily apparent that Edmonton is miles ahead in sporting facilities what with Rogers Place, Commonwealth stadium and the Butterdome.

I suppose our LRT network is much more expansive but that could be in part due to the make up of the two metro areas with Calgary essentially being a unicity while Edmonton is not. I guess Calgary does have Canada Olympic Park but even many of the facilities there are now quite outdated and not up to expected international standards any more.

So where has Calgary been spending their monies because they're getting spent somewhere, just not on sporting facilities or so it would appear.

[ivegotaname]

Skating rinks are vital to our country but hockey is not and that's all I have to say on this topic

many people in small towns and villages in my province all meet at the rink each and every year not just to play hockey but to socialize and make friends. We need newer and better skating rinks