Fredinno's 'Master Plan'

[fredinno]

I've wanted to do this for some time (since I joined in 2012)- a 'Master Plan' of Metro Van in 2050.
It's supposed to be as realistic as possible...



Go ahead, scrutinize it, I've probably made a few mistakes I need to fix up in v1.2 (v.1.0 is on Transit Fantazies)

It's it's own thread because it has a lot of non-transit things now (new expressways, runways, rail lines), and can't fit in any real category.

And I am aware some of the industrial zoning is in bad places. I'm moving the Derby Reach and Barnston Island Industrial Districts to Maple Ridge once I get a better quality map.

It's in shitty low-fidelity pen-and-paper until I actually get a proper drawing tablet for this stuff.

All the lines in Pencil Crayon are Skytrain.

Purple, Commuter Rail.

Red, BRT.

Each dot is an 'existing' station, and each hollow dot is a new station. If two dots overlap with each other, they are terminal stations.

The density reference is based off a scaled down version of this 2070 map with some room for modifications- especially since this is a 2010 map, and doesn't include the new developments in Langley.




Go wild.

[Anorak]

Looks really interesting, definitely some good ideas here. One main thing I would suggest to make it more readable would be to use google MyMaps to make it a bit more readable.

One thing that stood out to me is the lack of a Broadway line, but the rest of it looks good, I especially like the relative focus on commuter rail compared to other maps suggested by other forumers.

Also was wondering where you got that Density 2070 map?

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Anorak

Looks really interesting, definitely some good ideas here. One main thing I would suggest to make it more readable would be to use google MyMaps to make it a bit more readable.

One thing that stood out to me is the lack of a Broadway line, but the rest of it looks good, I especially like the relative focus on commuter rail compared to other maps suggested by other forumers.

Also was wondering where you got that Density 2070 map?

Google images, forgot where. Search up "Vancouver density Ma" and there's a map relating to development concepts.

There is supposed to be a Broadway line, I have no idea where it went in scanning

I redrew it in digitally, along with the also invisible Canada Line.

[casper]

I like the location of the new Nanaimo ferry terminal. In fact it would be an excellent terminal for both Nanaimo and Victoria. Close enough that a skytrain extension would be feasible perhaps.

[djmk]

you have highway 1B going through my house.

And no way that highway (and deep cove bridge) gets built.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by ilikeredheads

The morons at Richmond city hall initially wanted the Canada Line running at-grade. Obviously, it's a stupid idea and they eventually settle at having single track between Lansdowne and Brighouse to "reduce visual impact" of the guideways. The contractors aren't going to mind if they can save money and meet the pphpd requirement at the same time. Granted, this kind of cost saving was done at YVR too. However, the YVR branch will never need an extension.

There will never be an extension of Canada Line because the system is never designed for one. Funding and political issues aside, there's still a tremendous amount of technical hurdles to overcome. The guideway and Brighouse Station will have to be rebuilt, meaning portions of No3 Road will have to be shut down. All Richmond buses will have to be diverted to Lansdowne so passengers can transfer. The main challenge will be rebuilding Brighouse Station. There is simply no room on No3 Road to allow for a station with 2 platforms, and be large enough to handle the huge crowds without removing road lanes at the same time.

I guess we need to get creative. Ie, build on top of No. 3 Rd. Maybe learn a few tricks from all the Asians nearby .

There IS another option though, but to requires yet another line in Richmond.

How much space is there at Capstan or Bridgeport?

Because we could connect a Skytrain on top of the old CN spur east of No. 3 Rd (I would assume abandoned with the Industrial lands it supported being turned into mixed use Residential/Commmerical land due to the nearby Skytrain.) to Gilbert Rd. Make a Station there to connect to the nearby Richmond Oval and Minoru Park, and connect back to the originally planned Canada Line Extension.

To simplify the system, this line is merged to the Airport/Olympic Line to become the Seashore Line.

Originally Posted by ilikeredheads

Canada Line won't be extended at all because it wasn't designed to accommodate that.

And the railroad track along River road west of No3 road no longer exists.

Richmond needs a Skytrain extension of some sort. It's densifying fairly quickly compared to the rest of the region, and Canada Line needs to eventually be upgraded. It's difficult, but I don't feel we have much of a choice unless we want to cut down on development in Richmond.

And the railroad track on River Road? You mean the River Road where SFPR was built on? It's not essential, so I guess I can remove it.

But if you're talking about the section that connects to Knight St. Bridge... I would need a source for that. I use a print-based map for reference, so it's a bit dated (I can't stand Google Maps)

But it's still there, even on Google Maps. If it was abandoned due to low demand, we can always refurb it.

Originally Posted by djmk

you have highway 1B going through my house.

And no way that highway (and deep cove bridge) gets built.

Well, I tried. What about just the Burrard and "New NFPR" segments? Mainly because of the future developments in the high slopes of the Tricities.

The "New NFPR" would essentially be the Stormont connector, but diverting west to the Queensbrough Bridge...

[ilikeredheads]

Canada Line won't be extended at all because it wasn't designed to accommodate that.

And the railroad track along River road west of No3 road no longer exists.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by ilikeredheads

Canada Line won't be extended at all because it wasn't designed to accommodate that.

And the railroad track along River road west of No3 road no longer exists.

AFAIK, they just have to partially demolish the guideway and reconstruct it to extend it.

[officedweller]

Or they could just have a single rack section mid-way along the line and deal with the service issues.

A single track section was once proposed for the Capstan area until they came to their senses that it would interfere with frequency.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Or they could just have a single rack section mid-way along the line and deal with the service issues.

A single track section was once proposed for the Capstan area until they came to their senses that it would interfere with frequency.

They should've futureproofed it regardless of Richmond saying they don't want to expand it further, at the time of everyone voicing their opinion. What if density along the 403 or the 401 increases? Even if there is no extension beyond Brighouse as long as the line exists, Brighouse could've been built as a double-tracked, dual side platform station straddling over Three Road, stairs leading up from either side of the road and even a pedestrian bridge directly to the mall like Metrotown used to have. During non-peak hours, you can use either platform and have indicators of which platforms are active or even automatic gates to block access to inactive platforms and the inactive side could be used to store a train. During peak hours, both platforms can be used, with one empty and ready to accept an empty train and one with a train dwelling.

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

What if density along the 403 or the 401 increases?

I don't recognize these terms. What are you referring to with "401" and "403"?

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

They should've futureproofed it regardless of Richmond saying they don't want to expand it further, at the time of everyone voicing their opinion.

When you're trying to cut costs, the public is screaming it's too expensive and the City drops a gift in your lap, you don't say no.

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

I don't recognize these terms. What are you referring to with "401" and "403"?

Richmond bus routes.

[ilikeredheads]

The morons at Richmond city hall initially wanted the Canada Line running at-grade. Obviously, it's a stupid idea and they eventually settle at having single track between Lansdowne and Brighouse to "reduce visual impact" of the guideways. The contractors aren't going to mind if they can save money and meet the pphpd requirement at the same time. Granted, this kind of cost saving was done at YVR too. However, the YVR branch will never need an extension.

There will never be an extension of Canada Line because the system is never designed for one. Funding and political issues aside, there's still a tremendous amount of technical hurdles to overcome. The guideway and Brighouse Station will have to be rebuilt, meaning portions of No3 Road will have to be shut down. All Richmond buses will have to be diverted to Lansdowne so passengers can transfer. The main challenge will be rebuilding Brighouse Station. There is simply no room on No3 Road to allow for a station with 2 platforms, and be large enough to handle the huge crowds without removing road lanes at the same time.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by ilikeredheads

The morons at Richmond city hall initially wanted the Canada Line running at-grade. Obviously, it's a stupid idea and they eventually settle at having single track between Lansdowne and Brighouse to "reduce visual impact" of the guideways. The contractors aren't going to mind if they can save money and meet the pphpd requirement at the same time. Granted, this kind of cost saving was done at YVR too. However, the YVR branch will never need an extension.

There will never be an extension of Canada Line because the system is never designed for one. Funding and political issues aside, there's still a tremendous amount of technical hurdles to overcome. The guideway and Brighouse Station will have to be rebuilt, meaning portions of No3 Road will have to be shut down. All Richmond buses will have to be diverted to Lansdowne so passengers can transfer. The main challenge will be rebuilding Brighouse Station. There is simply no room on No3 Road to allow for a station with 2 platforms, and be large enough to handle the huge crowds without removing road lanes at the same time.

So, I take it that those same morons at city hall would like any possible extension of the Canada Line to be a B-Line? That would be a logistical nightmare for that stretch of road. They could fix it a bit by making some sections of road around Brighouse a bus only road.

[ilikeredheads]

I disagree that Canada Line needs an extension because as I said earlier, it's not designed for one in the first place. Most of the densification is happening near/along skytrain stations. One of the reasons Brighouse is busy is that almost all the bus routes in richmond are designed to funnel passengers at Brighouse. If demand is really that high outside of richmond centre, they should improve bus services first. As I said before, any extension will require shutting down Brighouse Station for a significant amount of time, disrupting commute greatly for numerous people, myself included. These people will not be happy. This is like if Expo Line only goes as far as Stadium and all the stations in downtown are closed.

If you drive around Richmond then you should realize that city hall is pretty short sighted in their road planning. They don't leave themselves with extra room for future expanding/upgrades. In fact, they like to add as many intersections/traffic lights as possible to impede traffic flow. There is simply no room to extend the line to anywhere. Nimbys will also get in way before any real discussion happens. There are too many financial, political, and technical hurdles to overcome to make extending the line a realistically viable project.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by ilikeredheads

I disagree that Canada Line needs an extension because as I said earlier, it's not designed for one in the first place. Most of the densification is happening near/along skytrain stations. One of the reasons Brighouse is busy is that almost all the bus routes in richmond are designed to funnel passengers at Brighouse. If demand is really that high outside of richmond centre, they should improve bus services first. As I said before, any extension will require shutting down Brighouse Station for a significant amount of time, disrupting commute greatly for numerous people, myself included. These people will not be happy. This is like if Expo Line only goes as far as Stadium and all the stations in downtown are closed.

If you drive around Richmond then you should realize that city hall is pretty short sighted in their road planning. They don't leave themselves with extra room for future expanding/upgrades. In fact, they like to add as many intersections/traffic lights as possible to impede traffic flow. There is simply no room to extend the line to anywhere. Nimbys will also get in way before any real discussion happens. There are too many financial, political, and technical hurdles to overcome to make extending the line a realistically viable project.

What about that Bridgeport-Airport Transfer solution I detailed above?

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by ilikeredheads

I disagree that Canada Line needs an extension because as I said earlier, it's not designed for one in the first place. Most of the densification is happening near/along skytrain stations. One of the reasons Brighouse is busy is that almost all the bus routes in richmond are designed to funnel passengers at Brighouse. If demand is really that high outside of richmond centre, they should improve bus services first.

Well, they can always put in a B-Line as a placeholder for an RRT project. The two former B-Lines, 97 and 98, as well as the former portion of the 99 from Commercial-Broadway to Lougheed, have now been replaced with RRT. The 98 became the Canada Line, the 97 became the Evergreen Extension of the Millennium Line, and the aforementioned half of 99 became the second third of Millennium Line Phase I. Upgrading the 99 and 96 to RRT is still deep in it's planning phase and who knows, maybe the 95 will eventually become an extension of the Expo Line, be replaced with the legendary SFU gondola, or become its own independent RRT line.

I do agree and I'm sure that others, like the stuck-up, no-life, insanely vocal NIMBY's who get in line days in advance for any infrastructure open-house events so they can present their opinion as that of the entire community, and those morons of city hall, agree as well that the Canada Line doesn't need an extension. But I only agree with the "as of right now" aspect of the necessity for extension. But in the far future, with density increasing, it is highly likely it will be needed. Years and years ago, houses on large lots neighbouring my grandparents house got sold, torn down, and turned into those dense neighbourhoods with narrow 3 story houses sharing walls (not sure what the word is), and more are being built because of this ongoing densification craze. As a matter of fact, a developer bought a section of the backyard that my grandpa uses to grow vegetables was sold to a developer for a little over $1M, and my dads rental property has an estimated value of a little under $1M, while his neighbour got listed at a similar price, and offered to combine the lots and sell them together (to which my dad declined because you don't sell income). Increased density comes with increased traffic, with a nice feature called increased emissions as well as increased accidents and increased injuries and increased deaths and increased x and increased y and increased z and increased so on and increased so forth.

Frequent transit, be it an express bus route with a 10 minute or less frequency, a B-Line route, a BRT route (one that actually fits criteria, with segregated bus lanes, stations, TPI, and all that stuff), a light rail/tram line, and even a SkyTrain line, will increase property values within proximity of its service area, which would lead to developers, who tend to have lots of money, offering owners to sell their homes, which will result in those properties getting consolidated and turned into a higher density residential or residential/commercial area.

Surely, the lack of foresight will bite the morons of city hall in the ass and I hope it tears off a sizeable chunk, maybe even the entire cheek. And hopefully someone will stand up against the self-centredness of the NIMBYs and tell them that if they don't like the sight of something to simply not look at it or get used to it.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

Well, they can always put in a B-Line as a placeholder for an RRT project. The two former B-Lines, 97 and 98, as well as the former portion of the 99 from Commercial-Broadway to Lougheed, have now been replaced with RRT. The 98 became the Canada Line, the 97 became the Evergreen Extension of the Millennium Line, and the aforementioned half of 99 became the second third of Millennium Line Phase I. Upgrading the 99 and 96 to RRT is still deep in it's planning phase and who knows, maybe the 95 will eventually become an extension of the Expo Line, be replaced with the legendary SFU gondola, or become its own independent RRT line.

I do agree and I'm sure that others, like the stuck-up, no-life, insanely vocal NIMBY's who get in line days in advance for any infrastructure open-house events so they can present their opinion as that of the entire community, and those morons of city hall, agree as well that the Canada Line doesn't need an extension. But I only agree with the "as of right now" aspect of the necessity for extension. But in the far future, with density increasing, it is highly likely it will be needed. Years and years ago, houses on large lots neighbouring my grandparents house got sold, torn down, and turned into those dense neighbourhoods with narrow 3 story houses sharing walls (not sure what the word is), and more are being built because of this ongoing densification craze. As a matter of fact, a developer bought a section of the backyard that my grandpa uses to grow vegetables was sold to a developer for a little over $1M, and my dads rental property has an estimated value of a little under $1M, while his neighbour got listed at a similar price, and offered to combine the lots and sell them together (to which my dad declined because you don't sell income). Increased density comes with increased traffic, with a nice feature called increased emissions as well as increased accidents and increased injuries and increased deaths and increased x and increased y and increased z and increased so on and increased so forth.

Frequent transit, be it an express bus route with a 10 minute or less frequency, a B-Line route, a BRT route (one that actually fits criteria, with segregated bus lanes, stations, TPI, and all that stuff), a light rail/tram line, and even a SkyTrain line, will increase property values within proximity of its service area, which would lead to developers, who tend to have lots of money, offering owners to sell their homes, which will result in those properties getting consolidated and turned into a higher density residential or residential/commercial area.

Surely, the lack of foresight will bite the morons of city hall in the ass and I hope it tears off a sizeable chunk, maybe even the entire cheek. And hopefully someone will stand up against the self-centredness of the NIMBYs and tell them that if they don't like the sight of something to simply not look at it or get used to it.

It's called a Townhouse.

It's actually especially bad because Richmond needs that extra capacity and extension for the next 40 years- the No.3 Rd Section won't support future demand in Richmond, increasing traffic enormously as the City moves away from its 'suburban' status to 'urban'.



The Canada Line as a whole, though, needs expansion- large parts of Cambie need to be ripped up again either for new stations, or expanding other ones to 5-car length.

Hopefully, we can also do the same for No. 3 Rd and extend the Canada Line, putting the current line below ground.

[Jebby]

Originally Posted by fredinno

The Canada Line as a whole, though, needs expansion- large parts of Cambie need to be ripped up again either for new stations, or expanding other ones to 5-car length.

Maybe in 30 or 40 years. The Canada Line still has a lot of capacity expansion that doesn't require rebuilding stations or ripping up Cambie.

It wasn't underbuilt, it was built to meet current demand and easily expandable to meet demand for the next few decades.

By the time the Canada Line needs to be expanded, it will likely make much more sense to build a second north-south line instead of expanding the Canada Line.

I don't think an Arbutus Line would make that much sense as a relief line. I do hope that a street car is eventually built along Arbutus, linking up with the Downtown Streetcar and perhaps an expansion along Marine Drive all the way to River District, but I don't think that's a solution for the North-South route.

A Hastings Line from Waterfront and then going south down Willingdon, past Brentwood and ending at Metrotown would make more sense. That, along with a UBC extension of the M-Line would be more than enough to service Downtown and take pressure off all three existing SkyTrain lines.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

This, but have the line elevated because something tells me that the lack of houses with basements in Richmond tells me that building underground wouldn't be a good idea, because of the high water table. Also, change the propulsion system to LIM so we can allow a possible connection to the rest of the SkyTrain, the ability to use SkyTrain rolling stock (which has steerable bogies to reduce that torturous screeching when the train goes between Oakridge and King Edward, and will also save on operation and maintenance costs), and so we can avoid those three incidents of the line shutting down when it's too cold, as well as to help get over that pesky bridge better.

My idea is to extend it down the entire length of No.3 to Steveston Highway, with stations at Granville (might be too close), Blundell, Francis, Williams, and then Steveston Highway. The terminus would include track stubs and switches turned in the respective directions for future extensions to Steveston and the Riverport Entertainment Complex, but would first be utilized as transfer point for an express bus or B-Line route between Steveston and Riverport, as well as a future interchange for passengers to switch between Steveston and Riverport-bound trains.

Riverport spur will have stations at the bus garage, Ironwood, the future Highway 99/Steveston Highway bus exchange (large station because it will be a major transit hub, Spanish solution is likely warranted), and Riverport.

Can't be assed to think of any Steveston spur stations other than Steveston.

Anyway...

That was the original plan, then everyone said there was no space at Brighouse.

Originally Posted by Jebby

Maybe in 30 or 40 years. The Canada Line still has a lot of capacity expansion that doesn't require rebuilding stations or ripping up Cambie.

It wasn't underbuilt, it was built to meet current demand and easily expandable to meet demand for the next few decades.

By the time the Canada Line needs to be expanded, it will likely make much more sense to build a second north-south line instead of expanding the Canada Line.

I don't think an Arbutus Line would make that much sense as a relief line. I do hope that a street car is eventually built along Arbutus, linking up with the Downtown Streetcar and perhaps an expansion along Marine Drive all the way to River District, but I don't think that's a solution for the North-South route.

A Hastings Line from Waterfront and then going south down Willingdon, past Brentwood and ending at Metrotown would make more sense. That, along with a UBC extension of the M-Line would be more than enough to service Downtown and take pressure off all three existing SkyTrain lines.

Even if we don't have arbutus Line, there should still be some way to get from No. 3 Rd to Steveston- considering the expected growth of Richmond (by 2070)- it absorbs a lot of it. Consider this was before Canada Line.


Also, this is a 2050 map. So, by then, it's almost essential.