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  #2041  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2017, 6:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Nicko999 View Post
You gotta stop watching the Clinton News Network and other bias medias.

Take a deep breath and try thinking rationally. Racism has increased? Really? I think the #BlackLivesMatter protests were held before Trump was even elected.
What Hate groups are you talking about? The ones breaking windows in Washington DC at Trump's inauguration? Or the ones protesting against a democratically elected president? Would those riots have happened had Clinton won the elections? Ask yourself the question and you'll realize maybe Trump isn't the villain after all.
As for global warming, I understand the concern but global warming does not exist, it's called climate change. And go read some unsponsored articles about what causes climate change. Hint: It has to do with humans and the sun's cycle.
As for the debt because of Wars in the Middle East, Trump wants to temporarily ban the entrance of people of those countries... instead of you know... bomb them. I actually don't agree with Trump that Saudi Arabia is not included because of business ties. That country is the EVIL in the region so they would be first on my list.

Listen, I'm all for multiculturalism but at some point enough is enough. We're becoming too tolerant. If you come here, you have to adopt the Canadian way of life. Nobody wants you to change religion but hijabs and other religious signs should be PROHIBITED outside of the mosque. If Iran bans women from entering the country without a hijab (no matter the religion) why would a country like the US should allow them to enter with such? Are we a Muslim country/continent? How comes you never see Muslim countries being tolerant? This is why BREXIT happened, Trump got elected and right wing parties are on the rise in Europe. We're lucky to have an ocean separating us from Europe and the Middle East because the Islamisation going on there is scary. I am hoping the next step is Kevin O'Leary at the head of the Conservatives but Canada is too soft for that.

Let's see all that hate towards me for my post now. You guys would be surprised how many people share the same opinions. They are just the silent majority.
We may be a "silent" majority, but I'm not silent about it. I agree with you for the most part, however I do believe Canada can do better than the Yankee-wannabe Kevin O'Dreary as PM. He has basically turned his back on Canada and can be pretty much considered a Yank at this point, like Biebsy. Plus, he's just a wanker of a human being full stop. I have no interest in seeing people like him in Canadian politics, let alone running my country.
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  #2042  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2017, 6:44 AM
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Our way of life as Canadians has been shaped by immigration though centuries. The idea of discriminating against someone's religious freedom is the antithesis of what it is to be Canadian. I am very against such an idea. What Iran does is completely irrelevant to how we are and to our values.
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  #2043  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2017, 8:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Nicko999 View Post
I am hoping the next step is Kevin O'Leary at the head of the Conservatives but Canada is too soft for that.
You do realize that O'Leary is very pro-immigration and pro-multiculturalism, right? He's not the Trump of the North that the CBC is painting him as.
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  #2044  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2017, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by jmt18325 View Post
Our way of life as Canadians has been shaped by immigration though centuries. The idea of discriminating against someone's religious freedom is the antithesis of what it is to be Canadian. I am very against such an idea. What Iran does is completely irrelevant to how we are and to our values.
+1

With the "well, [x country] does worse things", you can justify just about anything. I'm of the opinion that Canada can and does aspire to do better than Iran or Saudi Arabia.
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  #2045  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2017, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by jmt18325 View Post
Our way of life as Canadians has been shaped by immigration though centuries. The idea of discriminating against someone's religious freedom is the antithesis of what it is to be Canadian. I am very against such an idea. What Iran does is completely irrelevant to how we are and to our values.
I may have communicated what my opinion on immigration is poorly.

From my point of view, I am by all means not saying "stop immigration". Far from it. I know what the foundations of this country were founded on and I have no qualms with welcoming people in from all over the world.

I do, however, have an issue with people claiming "refugee status" coming in from the US of A. Like I said, there is no such thing as an American Refugee. The United States government/police/whatever does not persecute people of any religion or race. I understand that there are currently issues south of the border beyond anyone's control, but it is by no means at the stage of "persecution". There is big difference between a government saying "I don't like you because of your religion or ethnic background so I'm going to deport you" and a government saying "I don't like you because of your religion or ethnic background so I'm going to KILL you". There may be racial prejudice with the former, but deportation is not persecution. Full stop.

There are many people with legitimate claims as refugees looking to flee actual persecution, as in their lives are being threatened by their governments/police/etc., that are coming to Canada through the proper channels. And I have no qualms with this. These people have a legitimate reason to fear for their lives and I welcome them with open arms.

Those coming in from the US? No sorry, you are not refugees and should not be allowed to walk into our country as it suites you because the racist president is blowing hot air. Find a proper way to come to Canada like everyone else.
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Last edited by Pinus; Feb 20, 2017 at 12:23 PM.
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  #2046  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2017, 12:39 PM
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I don't have the time to formulate a proper response, but in a nutshell:

1. There are very, very few refugees who are permanent residents in the USA. It's often people who have come from elsewhere to the States as refugees, but fear they will not get fair treatment.
2. Asylum-seekers don't always apply in the States. Sometimes, the only flights available go through the US, even if their destination is Canada. But even in those cases, the STCA applies.
3. The US does a lot of things really well, but giving asylum-seekers a fair shake isn't really one of them. Beyond issues of detainment or treatment, they often don't get hearings. When they do, they often don't have access to a lawyer or translation. Imagine if you had to figure out the inner workings of the Chinese legal system on the fly without translation - it might technically be a hearing, but there's no way it can be fair.

So there are entirely valid reasons why refugees might cross the border. We don't accept all of them - there's about a 45% rejection rate - but these people have a right to have that be determined at a fair hearing.
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  #2047  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2017, 2:28 PM
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Originally Posted by jmt18325 View Post
Our way of life as Canadians has been shaped by immigration though centuries. The idea of discriminating against someone's religious freedom is the antithesis of what it is to be Canadian. I am very against such an idea. What Iran does is completely irrelevant to how we are and to our values.
The way of life of the United States has also been shaped by immigration. They have a rather large statue in a rather large city down there that holds a tablet with an inscription from a poem that says something that effect.

And look at the questioning (if we can call it that) that they are going through.
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  #2048  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2017, 2:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Stryker View Post
You have to understand that for a lot of Christians the threat of anti religion democrats has always been a very real threat.

The idea that democrats have a wide degree of beliefs from

Social libertarian/fiscial con

to just right of center.

To full on social Marxist isn't a new thing.


That being said it's nice that people are finally starting to open up about the conflict within the left.

I think it's forgotten that the democrats are not automatically the left of center party.

Its a time that people really need to rebuild the american political system.
Yes, we all fall into the trap of thinking that, but the truth is that's never been the case and it's becoming less and less true as we go along.

Presidential candidates are almost like pro sports free agents now, and parties increasingly pick and choose who they think has the best chance of leading them to victory. Traditional party ideology has almost become a secondary or tertiary consideration.

I long thought the Democrats were the party of the little guy (minorities, blue collar workers) but when I look at the richest people in the U.S. at the moment almost all of them were anti-Trump and pro-Clinton. Most of the richest people in the U.S. were also pro-Obama, and if you limit it to the "new economy" billionaires almost all of them have been pro-Democrat for a long time.

I also suspect that the rank and file union members in the U.S drifted away from the Democrats in this past election and many of them actually voted for Trump. The union brass in the U.S. obviously hasn't fully made that transition yet but depending on what Trump does on labour issues and how the economy performs under him, this may be where things lead them more quickly than they expect.

So the Democratic Party of the United States is today less the party of the little guy than it's ever been for quite some time.

It's now the party of an affluent, diverse globalist élite that, it's true, is quite worldly. But this worldliness is as much about, say, having reliable access to places to charge your iPhone in Phuket as it is about humanitarian concern (at home or abroad).
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  #2049  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2017, 3:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
The way of life of the United States has also been shaped by immigration. They have a rather large statue in a rather large city down there that holds a tablet with an inscription from a poem that says something that effect.

And look at the questioning (if we can call it that) that they are going through.
That they have abandoned their values (at current) doesn't mean that we have to abandon ours.
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  #2050  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2017, 3:45 PM
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That they have abandoned their values (at current) doesn't mean that we have to abandon ours.
Absolutely right.

But it also means that the historical values of a country built on immigration are not a foolproof guarantee of anything.
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  #2051  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2017, 4:56 PM
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Originally Posted by 1overcosc View Post
You do realize that O'Leary is very pro-immigration and pro-multiculturalism, right? He's not the Trump of the North that the CBC is painting him as.
Socially O leary is actually extremely Liberal on the issues that matter, I mean he's a jerk but if he became Canada's PM he'd be OK and wouldn't be a threat to any minority groups.

Kellie Leitch on the other hand......
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  #2052  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2017, 5:10 PM
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Socially O leary is actually extremely Liberal on the issues that matter, I mean he's a jerk but if he became Canada's PM he'd be OK and wouldn't be a threat to any minority groups.

Kellie Leitch on the other hand......
What would O'Leary do to our social safety net that helps to even out the inequalities in people's living standards?

That's one of the big reasons why there are (relatively) few tensions between the very diverse groups and regions that make up Canada.
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  #2053  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2017, 8:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Absolutely right.

But it also means that the historical values of a country built on immigration are not a foolproof guarantee of anything.
What's become abundantly clear is these Canadian values we thought were sacrosanct can be undone. There are people in this country, young and old, who'd much rather mold Canada in their own image. They reject the Constitution and official multi-culturalism. They are, by extension, un-Canadian.

It speaks to a fundamental ignorance of what Canada is. They don't see it of course.
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  #2054  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2017, 8:40 PM
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Would those riots have happened had Clinton won the elections? Ask yourself the question and you'll realize maybe Trump isn't the villain after all.
Absolutely they would have. Do you think black bloc anarchists voted for Hillary Clinton? They smash shit at EVERY event that is remotely connected to globalism / capitalism. They have been out in force countless times during Obama's presidency. It's not the fucking pantsuit brigade - these people hate Hillary as much as the MAGA CHUDs.

This is such a weak argument that morons on the right have kept shrieking over the past month. The connection you made doesn't even make any sense from a logical perspective.
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  #2055  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2017, 9:46 PM
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What's become abundantly clear is these Canadian values we thought were sacrosanct can be undone. There are people in this country, young and old, who'd much rather mold Canada in their own image. They reject the Constitution and official multi-culturalism. They are, by extension, un-Canadian.

It speaks to a fundamental ignorance of what Canada is. They don't see it of course.
The sacrosanct Canadian value of multiculturalism only goes back to the 1970s, though. Although Canada was de facto multicultural way before that, but it wasn't embraced as widely and certainly not officially.

I think the lesson from this is that Canadian values are ever-changing.

The real question is whether they're changing or going to change in a desirable direction.
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  #2056  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2017, 10:28 PM
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The fact that there was historically immigration to Canada isn't by itself a good reason for continuing or increasing immigration today.

The Canada of the past was thinly populated and mostly rural. Today, a large number of Canadians are crowded into a couple of cities that have become hugely unaffordable and don't have enough infrastructure to support their current populations. We also have fairly significant unemployment and largely stagnant wages. Nowhere in Canada is really economically crying out for settlers to come and harvest low-hanging fruit that will otherwise go to waste.

It might make sense to admit some immigrants because they are likely to be particularly successful and help others, or on humanitarian grounds. Those may be compelling reasons based somewhat concretely on helping to improve live here and abroad. "We're a country of immigrants" on the other hand is not a coherent line of reasoning.
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  #2057  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2017, 11:19 PM
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The fact that there was historically immigration to Canada isn't by itself a good reason for continuing or increasing immigration today.

The Canada of the past was thinly populated and mostly rural. Today, a large number of Canadians are crowded into a couple of cities that have become hugely unaffordable and don't have enough infrastructure to support their current populations. We also have fairly significant unemployment and largely stagnant wages. Nowhere in Canada is really economically crying out for settlers to come and harvest low-hanging fruit that will otherwise go to waste.

It might make sense to admit some immigrants because they are likely to be particularly successful and help others, or on humanitarian grounds. Those may be compelling reasons based somewhat concretely on helping to improve live here and abroad. "We're a country of immigrants" on the other hand is not a coherent line of reasoning.
The split between rural and urban has only increased by 5 percent since 1971 (76% urban then vs 81% in 2011). Canada's unemployment rate is the lowest it's been since 2009 (give or take a tenth or two), and it was much higher through most of the 1980s and 1990s. Average wages have gone up by about 60% since 1995. We've been admitting immigrants to our country during this time and it hasn't made any difference economically.

And by saying "nowhere in Canada is really economically crying out for settlers to come and harvest low-hanging fruit that will otherwise go to waste" you seem to be implying that immigrants will be of lower socio-economic status. Why? Immigrants are also doctors, teachers, professors, engineers, and other highly sought-after professions. They're largely not here to dig ditches or serve at Tim Hortons. I can tell you that BC could really use a bunch of doctors to start up family practices, and if those doctors are immigrants, then that's alright by a lot of people.
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  #2058  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2017, 12:56 AM
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The split between rural and urban has only increased by 5 percent since 1971 (76% urban then vs 81% in 2011). Canada's unemployment rate is the lowest it's been since 2009 (give or take a tenth or two), and it was much higher through most of the 1980s and 1990s. Average wages have gone up by about 60% since 1995. We've been admitting immigrants to our country during this time and it hasn't made any difference economically.

And by saying "nowhere in Canada is really economically crying out for settlers to come and harvest low-hanging fruit that will otherwise go to waste" you seem to be implying that immigrants will be of lower socio-economic status. Why? Immigrants are also doctors, teachers, professors, engineers, and other highly sought-after professions. They're largely not here to dig ditches or serve at Tim Hortons. I can tell you that BC could really use a bunch of doctors to start up family practices, and if those doctors are immigrants, then that's alright by a lot of people.
I guess at some point everyone in Canada stopped caring about the impacts of brain drain in developing countries.
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  #2059  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2017, 3:41 AM
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I guess I wasn't clear. My post wasn't about debating whether or not immigration is good for the country, or how much immigration is a good level. Those are valid things to discuss but I think you could write books about them. My point was simply that I don't think pointing out that there used to be immigration to Canada is sufficient to prove that it's still a good idea today.

When I talked about Canada's rural past, I was thinking of 1670, 1770, or 1871, not 1970. To take one example, in 1901, Alberta had about 70,000 people, and there were large tracts of virgin land available to whoever wanted to settle in those areas. Today, there are almost 4 million people there and most of the people live in suburban sprawl around the cities. The fact that there was a big call for immigration in that completely different situation in 1901 doesn't mean much today in 2017, when circumstances are completely different.
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  #2060  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2017, 3:47 AM
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I guess I wasn't clear. My post wasn't about debating whether or not immigration is good for the country, or how much immigration is a good level. Those are valid things to discuss but I think you could write books about them. My point was simply that I don't think pointing out that there used to be immigration to Canada is sufficient to prove that it's still a good idea today.

When I talked about Canada's rural past, I was thinking of 1670, 1770, or 1871, not 1970. To take one example, in 1901, Alberta had about 70,000 people, and there were large tracts of virgin land available to whoever wanted to settle in those areas. Today, there are almost 4 million people there and most of the people live in suburban sprawl around the cities. The fact that there was a big call for immigration in that completely different situation in 1901 doesn't mean much today in 2017, when circumstances are completely different.
I totally got your point.
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