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  #61  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2013, 5:50 AM
migol24 migol24 is online now
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No jtown,man thats not how it goes. The conversation is simply over because you can't give a persuasive argument stating why you are either not "racist" or you do not "hate people and want them to die". In other words you are either being too lazy to defend your case, not very much informed or simply incorrect. And that is why the conversation is over when it is over. Nobody can force you to ever keep your mouth shut just like you can't force others to keep from suggesting that your views are bigoted.
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  #62  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2013, 5:57 AM
migol24 migol24 is online now
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Exactly, Kevin! It happened such a long time ago and that is why its stupid and unnecessary to even feel significantly affected by it. There is no real reason to even be slightly offended by it.
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  #63  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2013, 6:06 AM
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Originally Posted by jtown,man View Post
Calling someone a racist in today's society is the same as prohibiting their opinion. Its an automatic "ok lets move on guys, this guys ideas are outdated and wrong." This is not the same as me disagreeing with someone because I view things a little differently.

Take health care, I think Democrats are wrong. I think the more you use free market, the cheaper and better healthcare becomes(look at non-insured cosmetic surgery prices). A Democrat would come at me and state why they think universal healthcare is better and we would have a good debate. But if in that conversation the Democrat tells me " you hate people and would love for them to die because you don't agree with me"....well the conversation is over.

That, to me, is what calling someone a racist does. It makes any point they have or will make a moot one, since their source of ideas is a flawed place.
Agreed, when we can get beyond the labeling and name calling like in the previous post, then true dialog can begin. Posturing and mud slinging is extremely unproductive. And why is anyone offended by what syndic says, is he your friend? Family member? Only my friends or family can hurt me with their words or opinions. Why does anyone really give a shit what he or anyone else has to say? If you think he really matters, then why do you put him on the defensive by whining about your feelings to him and hurling insults? Do you find that your only means of effective communication? If you do, may I suggest not responding at all, nonvalidation or recognition of a comment or opinion can be more effective than negative rhetoric. Jeff Gordon, race car driver said he'd rather be bood than no response at all because at least he's being noticed when he's jeered. Why give someone who bothers you a bigger platform if you don't know how to effectively communicate with him? See migol24, that's society's problem in a nutshell. If we want to achieve worldwide tolerance and respect for everyone, we first need to learn how to talk to each other. Civility always loses to emotion I guess.

Last edited by the Genral; Oct 21, 2013 at 6:35 AM.
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  #64  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2013, 6:22 AM
migol24 migol24 is online now
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I disagree with you there Genral... the moment you feel offended by a culture or a museum highlighting certain aspects of said culture you should be open just the same understanding why others are as offended as you for such feelings towards a culture. It is clearly a double standard on your part, or in this case jtowns and Syndic's part to feel like the victims here. Why not tell Syndic that it is up to him to feel offended or not by a culture and he needs to learn to cope with it? It is a bit insensitive and disingenuous to think that it isn't going to offend anyone to say you're offended by a museum highlighting "mexican culture" or that "you don't identify with it therefore it doesn't belong there". You state your reasons why you are offended and I will state mine. That is the most rational approach if we really want to get over these differences.
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  #65  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2013, 6:38 AM
migol24 migol24 is online now
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Genral put your thinking cap on for a second. Where is the uncivility here? Questioning said ideologies or the ideologies themselves? I have been up to this point having a perfectly civil discussion respecting difference of opinions by being patient and reading every single comment and responding with the best of my ability not fogging my responses with emotions. Now I am the uncivil one when I am advocating for acceptance of all cultures meanwhile the other guy is still worried about some war that happened centuries ago still trying to keep that rivalry alive?! That is some strange way of thinking (and I mean that sincerely without personal attacks). I simply don't understand that frame of mind at all. Furthermore, I'd like it if you or jtown,man can finally answer my question... why is it okay for Syndic to express what offends him yet wwmiv and I are not allowed to do the same?

And oh the irony that I'm the one who needs to learn to speak with civility... good grief it is the entire basis of which I have been predicating my arguments! An assertion I made two pages ago in defense of none other than Syndic himself.

Last edited by migol24; Oct 21, 2013 at 6:49 AM.
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  #66  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2013, 6:50 AM
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Originally Posted by migol24 View Post
Genral put your thinking cap on for a second. Where is the uncivility here? Questioning said ideologies or the ideologies themselves? I have been up to this point having a perfectly civil discussion respecting difference of opinions by being patient and reading every single comment and responding with the best of my ability not fogging my responses with emotions. Now I am the uncivil one when I am advocating for acceptance of all cultures meanwhile the other guy is still worried about some war that happened centuries ago still trying to keep that rivalry alive?! That is some strange way of thinking (and I mean that sincerely without personal attacks). I simply don't understand that frame of mind at all. Furthermore, I'd like it if you or jtown,man can finally answer my question... why is it okay for Syndic to express what offends him yet wwmiv and I are not allowed to do the same?
You are NOT the uncivil one I was referring to migol24. I am emphasizing with you. I think you are a good person and I like your style. I am simply saying that to achieve peace, we need an effective dialog in order for the debate to advance, there must be an absence of emotion disqualificational dialog, such as adjectives that shuts the other person...maybe I need to take my think cap off...I'm getting way too diplomatic and over my head apparently.. to answer your question, I didn't realize I made you think I said rebuttal by you or anyone was not allowed, if I gave you that impression I am sorry...see I need to work on my communication skills too...
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  #67  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2013, 7:15 AM
migol24 migol24 is online now
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I think wwmiv and I have been making good dialogue without shutting anybody down, unless I have completely missed something. Also, there isn't anything necessarily wrong with expressing yourself with emotions so long as you don't let them dictate your perceptions. It's what has made me good at holding debates allowing me to think freely yet lively at once.

And here's something I am strongly passionate about. I mostly see Texas like a walking contradiction. Every major city in Texas outnumbers California in Hispanic population percentage, except Los Angeles, yet Texas has the most vociferous people with questionable opinions about Hispanic cultures in general. You want to talk about progress? When is Texas going to be proudly recognized as being the best State for Hispanics at this very moment? People like Syndic are not helping that cause. And if it so much as offends anyone that a Mexican Museum is being built on Texas' main street why can't we see it as a blessing that Texas proudly accepts and supports people from all walks of life? I've long wanted to see a thriving black, asian and gay community to thrive equally in a city like Austin, but do we all honestly think it will ever happen with controversies like these? I mean, I think I've said enough about this topic. If it's not going to make people at least rethink their positions one bit then I feel that I too have simply been "shut down". My parents are both Mexican and I can count a number of ways my father has been discriminated against for his brown color (not so much me, because to a lot of people I'm a bit hipster, essentially "American" enough) and I've just about had it that people don't want to accept that Austin still has some rooted racial mistrust and it hasn't been highlighted enough. Ask any black person how they feel about Austin.

The same goes for the gay community, acceptance schmensions... their is still discrimination amongst them. I've seen it firsthand. Even the most progressive cities have racial divisions... take SF for example and the quiet discriminations amongst black folks, so don't think for a second that Austin is immune to this.
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  #68  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2013, 7:17 AM
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No, migol, he's calling me the bad guy for pointing out that Syndic is quite clearly racist. I'm sorry, genral, but Syndic's posts here contain very clear ethnocentric (a particular type of racism) bent and, although you are right that pointing it out may mean a shutdown of the debate, pointing out that bias is the first step to recovery.
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  #69  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2013, 7:28 AM
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I'm going to excuse myself for the remainder of this debate because my main objective was to complain about the design and not its placement. I took a course in effective communication and employee buy in and tried to interject it here. For the record I am opposed to all forms of oppression for both humans and animals. I believe in treating all living things with respect and that we are all created equal. In my world there is no room for less. I really don't care what anyone does as long as it is in the confines of the law and no one get hurt mentally or physically. I'm strong enough to take a punch, but don't expect an invite to dinner afterwards...peace...
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  #70  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2013, 7:30 AM
migol24 migol24 is online now
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wwmiv, count me in as uninformed. I feel as though I've completely missed half of the arguments. I'd never heard of the term "ethnocentric" before up until now.
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  #71  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2013, 7:35 AM
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Originally Posted by wwmiv View Post
No, migol, he's calling me the bad guy for pointing out that Syndic is quite clearly racist. I'm sorry, genral, but Syndic's posts here contain very clear ethnocentric (a particular type of racism) bent and, although you are right that pointing it out may mean a shutdown of the debate, pointing out that bias is the first step to recovery.
You are definately not a bad guy, in fact you are a hero of the people, and I don't disagree with your assessment. Just the way its interjected. Its up to the opposition to decide if he needs to be recovered...I'd go about it differently, that's all. Jeez wwmiv, I usually get slammed worse than that when we used to go at it. I always have to brace myself when you comment on my posts
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  #72  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2013, 7:55 AM
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Oops
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  #73  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2013, 8:29 AM
migol24 migol24 is online now
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Why not meet at the Mexic-Arte Museum (I hear they serve good coffee)... Syndic too fuck it! It be good for him to see that he could find peculiarities about the culture that he can identify with. We are all people, sometimes misguided but that's okay. The things I'm most passionately about are the BS I've seen happening to friends of mine and especially my parents. I have so much bottled up issues seeing my mother working as a housekeeper for rich white women and how they spoke down to her in certain ways. I'd tell my mom but the sweetness inside of her always kept her hush hush. Her only bosses which treated her with enormous respect and dignity were a gay couple from DFW and Chinese woman she'd worked for in Houston. Now she is in the hospital recovering from a recent stroke she suffered from earlier and its one of the main reasons why I am moving back to Austin. My father has also dealt with much of the same in his current job and at different times in our lives. Questioning his competency and ability to think critically. He certainly doesn't have a proper education but if you see how well thought out my posts are he is a big contributor for challenging me to think the way I do. I've long dreamt of making a name for myself and contributing something to our society and culture. I wouldn't be the first mexican-american to achieve anything and I'm sure every single person has a story to tell, very much like you and mine not being any more special or important but at least I'd do it for my family and the BS my parents have dealt with. I think the artists that are represented at that Museum try to express this very same sentiment I'm expressing now.

But don't get me wrong... I have lots of friends who say racists jokes all the time that I can deal with. I'm a huge Louis CK fan, if you know what I mean. But sometimes a cigar is a cigar and we should be allowed to question and evaluate at all costs.
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  #74  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2013, 8:45 AM
wwmiv wwmiv is offline
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Originally Posted by migol24 View Post
wwmiv, count me in as uninformed. I feel as though I've completely missed half of the arguments. I'd never heard of the term "ethnocentric" before up until now.
Ethnocentricism is the idea that only one's own ethnicity matters. Given that culture is one of the defining characteristics of ethnicity, it is central to this debate on a Mexican American art museum, which is why I became so annoyed at characterizations by Syndic that he was really talking about culture not ethnicity... but ignoring the fact that they are essentially intertwined. Therefore, a corollary to ethnocentrism is that only one's own culture matters as well.
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  #75  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2013, 8:52 AM
wwmiv wwmiv is offline
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Originally Posted by the Genral View Post
You are definately not a bad guy, in fact you are a hero of the people, and I don't disagree with your assessment. Just the way its interjected. Its up to the opposition to decide if he needs to be recovered...I'd go about it differently, that's all. Jeez wwmiv, I usually get slammed worse than that when we used to go at it. I always have to brace myself when you comment on my posts
I don't think I've ever called you a racist/ethnocentrist. Conservative, maybe, but definitely not a racist/ethnocentrist. And I happen to think that racism/ethnocentrism is perhaps the worst thing that anyone can be labeled and I don't use it lightly, even in this case.

I hope that Syndic stays around, because I value his contributions on many things. But on this he is way off into crazy land akin to people like Michele Bachmann, Ken Buck, Tom Tancredo, and others. Just because on one issue he is dead wrong does not mean that on all issues he's wrong. He's been remarkably good on development and others.
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  #76  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2013, 2:26 PM
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At first I liked the hamster wheel. But I now think it's totally inappropriate for Congress. Ave. I have been to that gallery several times, and overall it has some pretty good exhibits. Whenever I have guests in town I take them there when we are wondering around downtown.
But seriously, this will never be built because this little gallery doesn't have and will not have the money or benefactors to build it.
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  #77  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2013, 5:55 PM
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I'm pretty much done with this conversation. I think wwmiv and migol24 are being oversensitive, dishonest (like saying "culture is one of the defining characteristics of ethnicity" which is laughable), and hyperbolic (vis-a-vis the Michele Bachmann, Ken Buck, Tom Tancredo comparisons), but I don't blame them. They're just doing what they think their culture tells them to do. I'm not right-wing. I'm actually far, far left. I'm beyond a liberal or a progressive. I'm a socialist. So, these mischaracterizations are pretty hilarious. But I'm a Texan, first and foremost. And I'm still uncomfortable building big, gaudy monuments to the nation that we won our independence from and that slaughtered hundreds of Texans in cold blood, no matter how many of them immigrated here since then. The polite thing to do is to integrate and celebrate your new country, not talk about how great the place you came from is.

Anyway, I'm done. Let's hope this project never sees the light of day. On Congress, at least.
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  #78  
Old Posted Oct 22, 2013, 5:08 AM
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I rather like the design of the proposed museum. If it is well executed, it will be an interesting addition to the rather bland streetscape that is Congress Ave. I am also not uncomfortable with the growing numbers of Hispanics (mostly Mexican American or Central American) who now call Austin home. I think the Hispanic presence in Austin is vital and interesting. I would be lying, however, if I did not admit to being concerned that, unless this growing presence of Hispanics does not assimilate in fairly short order, there is the real danger that the rule of law in this part of Texas could give way to a corrupt judiciary and corrupt law enforcement who take their cues from the highest bidder. I am also concerned that kidnapping of middle class citizens may become a real threat and that that whole neighborhoods and communities might be held hostage to criminal gangs. That is how things are in much of northern Mexico today and increasingly how things are in the southern third of Texas. It is one of the main reasons, along with economic opportunity, that large numbers of Hispanics from Mexico and Central America come to this country. Unfortunately many of these problems follow them here. These are legitimate concerns, but they probably need to be discussed elsewhere on SSP or perhaps in another online forum.
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  #79  
Old Posted Oct 22, 2013, 3:17 PM
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What happened to all the posts after 12:08 AM today? I wasn't keeping up, so I guess they got ugly. Why don't we just close this thread since this wet dream of a museum will never materialize.
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  #80  
Old Posted Oct 22, 2013, 4:00 PM
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Mods didn't like the branching off into political views.
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