Richmond, B.C., considers banning Chinese-only signage

[Judas]

Originally Posted by Acajack

In any event, I am strongly supportive of Bill 101 in Quebec.

It's a good thing I was already sitting down

[geotag277]

Originally Posted by d_jeffrey

Or you should just read back my posts about such issue.

Somehow I don't feel the need too. Weird.

[geotag277]

Originally Posted by Judas

It's a good thing I was already sitting down

By my count this is the third account is almost as many days to sign up, and immediately begin stalking and antagonising Acajack. Guy Incognito, odog, and now Judas.

All things considered, probably a sign that Acajack is doing something right, to garner this much attention.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by geotag277

By my count this is the third account is almost as many days to sign up, and immediately begin stalking and antagonising Acajack. Guy Incognito, odog, and now Judas.

All things considered, probably a sign that Acajack is doing something right, to garner this much attention.

Thanks geotag. (Especially since I know you're not always a fan of my posts.) Not sure about odog but Guy and Judas for sure. Also bandage before that.

Anyway, I am probably more stubborn than anyone Guy-Judas-Bandage-(Odog) has ever met.

So good luck to him!

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by d_jeffrey

To equate someone who can chop onions fast to a Chinse person for once?!

You're imputing motives or mentalities to your agenda where they don't exist. I picked a skill out of the air from the category "skills needed at particular jobs."

A baker needs to know how to bake bread. An accountant needs to know how to do accounting. A prep cook needs to know how to cut onions. An employee at a Chinese business in a heavily Chinese area needs to know how to speak Chinese.

It's a category.

Granted, it's not a completely useful analogy because you can learn how to chop onions a lot faster than you can learn how to speak Chinese and engage with customers effectively within Chinese business culture. And there's no question that the desired employee has to be an ethnic Chinese person who spent his or her formative years in China--even a CBC won't do.

But in principle, it's similar to how a company rep needs to be able to speak Chinese to run the operations somewhere in China away from international centres like Shanghai and Hong Kong (where lots of Westerners live and work without knowing much Chinese at all). You may not like that there are so many Chinese-speaking people in certain neighbourhoods in Toronto and Vancouver where the idea of a non-Chinese person applying for most jobs would be an amusing joke to all concerned, but that's a free market for you.

Having said that, I'm completely sympathetic to the condo-dweller upset that condo meetings are conducted in Mandarin. That's illegal and unethical, and should not be tolerated.

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by geotag277

I look forward to your protests of companies daring to hire Chinese speakers for Chinese translation duties as well.

Presumably there is a "good faith" or "bona fide job requirement" provision in human rights codes to deal with this.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Oh, the condo board is totally different from this store which is a private business.

As I said many pages ago, the condo board is a requirement of provincial law and it has powers afforded to it by the province. (Every condo has a board and they have the power to make decisions and impose them on everyone in the building.)

Since people don't have a choice to abide by the condo board's decisions, and are also free to live wherever they want in BC (including a largely Chinese condo building in Richmond), the condo board's meetings should be in English unless 100% of the people in the room are OK with them being in Mandarin.

Actually I disagree with your last point. While the people in the room at that moment in time might be OK with Mandarin-only, you cannot assume that the strata ownership will always be Mandarin speakers. If minutes are kept only in that language it put any future non-Mandarin speaking buyer at a disadvantage. While currently most non-Chinese wouldn't even entertain buying in Richmond that's not to say it will always be the case.

Canada has two official languages, and Mandarin isn't one of them. Ergo it shouldn't be used exclusively in this situation.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Actually I disagree with your last point. While the people in the room at that moment in time might be OK with Mandarin-only, you cannot assume that the strata ownership will always be Mandarin speakers. If minutes are kept only in that language it put any future non-Mandarin speaking buyer at a disadvantage. While currently most non-Chinese wouldn't even entertain buying in Richmond that's not to say it will always be the case.

Canada has two official languages, and Mandarin isn't one of them. Ergo it shouldn't be used exclusively in this situation.

That's also a good point.

Though conceivably they could do what they do in a number of small (virtually 100%) Hispanic municipalities in the U.S.: discuss in the non-official language and write up the minutes in English.

And now that I think of it, I doubt they'd write up the minutes in Chinese in the Richmond condo even if deliberations were in Mandarin. What happens if they have to submit something to the province or some other external entity?

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

And now that I think of it, I doubt they'd write up the minutes in Chinese in the Richmond condo even if deliberations were in Mandarin. What happens if they have to submit something to the province or some other external entity?

When selling a condo you have a duty to provide the minutes to the next buyer, so that they can understand the history of the building they're buying into. A non-Mandarin-speaking buyer can't reasonably do this if they're given hundreds or thousands of pages of records in Mandarin (although I guess they would still have access to some other official documents in English). Non-Mandarin speakers are therefore discriminated against when it comes to buying housing in this situation.

And that's before we even begin to talk about the disadvantages of earning your income in Canada and therefore having to actually follow regulations, pay taxes, etc.

[Rico Rommheim]

Time for B.C. to bring in their own "Bill 101" lest they want a Montreal circa 1950 type of arrangement, whereas the majority language speakers were strangers in their own home.

I wonder if English Canada will one day seize the irony?

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by Rico Rommheim

Time for B.C. to bring in their own "Bill 101" lest they want a Montreal circa 1950 type of arrangement, whereas the majority language speakers were strangers in their own home.

I wonder if English will one day seize the irony?

Looking by the answers here so far, I don't think they get it yet!

[waterloowarrior]

Judas, Bandage, and Guy Incognito are all Fatty McButterpants accounts. He will probably create some more accounts so please just ignore him next time

[GlassCity]

Of course the sign meant "Chinese-speaking" and I actually have no problem with that. I just posted the picture as it was a good, concrete example of the sort of stuff that that causes grievances in the community. Though most of us know what the sign's really asking, I think it's understandable how this provocative sign would make people uncomfortable.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Rico Rommheim

Time for B.C. to bring in their own "Bill 101" lest they want a Montreal circa 1950 type of arrangement, whereas the majority language speakers were strangers in their own home.

I wonder if English Canada will one day seize the irony?

The situation is still quite different. English in Montreal had and still has to a large degree a publicly supported institutional support network including most importantly an education system in English. Until 1977 that school system was open ended in it's growth potential and it tended to grow unchecked, drawing in non-anglophones who in turn grew the anglo community. This will not happen with Chinese in Vancouver.

[geotag277]

Comparisons between Bill 101 and Richmond are laughable. Richmond is serves as something of a ethnic Chinese enclave of about 200,000 people, half of which speak Chinese. I'm almost sure I saw Chinese only signs in Richmond decades ago.

It makes one wonder if the relative success and wealth of Chinese in recent times has something to do with it. Would people make a fuss about an Italian sign in little Italy? Is the problem that many Chinese are now wealthy and as such are stepping over our assumptions about how an ethnic enclave should exist?

Traditionally poor immigrants would not typically be able to own their own apartment, so instead of having a condo board meeting in Mandarin, they would simply be renting among a majority non-English rental community. Does that make us feel better and more "comfortable"?

I also find the wording somewhat amusing that the individual in question feels that English speakers are being discriminated against in the condo, and he laments the fact they aren't using one of Canada's official languages - when in fact, if they held the meeting in French, English speakers would be just as discriminated against, in the exact same way.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by geotag277

Comparisons between Bill 101 and Richmond are laughable. Richmond is serves as something of a ethnic Chinese enclave of about 200,000 people, half of which speak Chinese. I'm almost sure I saw Chinese only signs in Richmond decades ago.

It makes one wonder if the relative success and wealth of Chinese in recent times has something to do with it. Would people make a fuss about an Italian sign in little Italy? Is the problem that many Chinese are now wealthy and as such are stepping over our assumptions about how an ethnic enclave should exist?

Traditionally poor immigrants would not typically be able to own their own apartment, so instead of having a condo board meeting in Mandarin, they would simply be renting among a majority non-English rental community. Does that make us feel better and more "comfortable"?

I also find the wording somewhat amusing that the individual in question feels that English speakers are being discriminated against in the condo, and he laments the fact they aren't using one of Canada's official languages - when in fact, if they held the meeting in French, English speakers would be just as discriminated against, in the exact same way.

One tires of this Richmond condo, but didn't the condo board claim that English was used when there was an English speaker in attendance? There was also a reference about to board minutes being in Mandarin. Was that confirmed anywhere, it was new to me?

[lio45]

Originally Posted by geotag277

I also find the wording somewhat amusing that the individual in question feels that English speakers are being discriminated against in the condo, and he laments the fact they aren't using one of Canada's official languages - when in fact, if they held the meeting in French, English speakers would be just as discriminated against, in the exact same way.

More or less. There's still an enormous difference between an official language of your country that you don't understand, and a foreign language.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by geotag277

Comparisons between Bill 101 and Richmond are laughable. Richmond is serves as something of a ethnic Chinese enclave of about 200,000 people, half of which speak Chinese. I'm almost sure I saw Chinese only signs in Richmond decades ago.

It makes one wonder if the relative success and wealth of Chinese in recent times has something to do with it. Would people make a fuss about an Italian sign in little Italy? Is the problem that many Chinese are now wealthy and as such are stepping over our assumptions about how an ethnic enclave should exist?

Traditionally poor immigrants would not typically be able to own their own apartment, so instead of having a condo board meeting in Mandarin, they would simply be renting among a majority non-English rental community. Does that make us feel better and more "comfortable"?

I also find the wording somewhat amusing that the individual in question feels that English speakers are being discriminated against in the condo, and he laments the fact they aren't using one of Canada's official languages - when in fact, if they held the meeting in French, English speakers would be just as discriminated against, in the exact same way.

What a surprise, geotag has no problem with this.

There were never Chinese only signs in Richmond decades ago, trust me, I was there. Given that BC is not an officially bilingual province, suggesting French be used is facetious.

[wg_flamip]

Originally Posted by geotag277

It makes one wonder if the relative success and wealth of Chinese in recent times has something to do with it. Would people make a fuss about an Italian sign in little Italy? Is the problem that many Chinese are now wealthy and as such are stepping over our assumptions about how an ethnic enclave should exist?

Traditionally poor immigrants would not typically be able to own their own apartment, so instead of having a condo board meeting in Mandarin, they would simply be renting among a majority non-English rental community. Does that make us feel better and more "comfortable"?

I think you're on to something here, although I'd argue that a third-language sign written in the Latin alphabet would appear less jarring to those who find third-language signs particularly distressing. I mean, the word caffè on a shop sign wouldn't make quite the visual splash that 咖啡店 or مقهى would.

[geotag277]

Originally Posted by whatnext

There were never Chinese only signs in Richmond decades ago, trust me, I was there.

A cursory google search reveals plenty of examples of Chinese only signs in Vancouver.



That one is from 1907, more than a century ago.

Here's another circa the 1980s:



These shots are technically Chinatown, but considering the volume and demographics of Richmond, it shouldn't surprise anyone to learn that there have been splattering of Chinese only signage in Richmond at various times in various places. "I was there decades ago and it never happened" seems a tad disingenuous. I was also there, and I seem to recall Chinese only signage in certain areas.

It seems the outage over Chinese only signs seemingly corresponded almost wholly to the ability for Chinese to buy property, and subsequently Richmond evolving from a poor, immigrant enclave that was generally undesirable to a expensive neighbourhood. Now residents want to also white wash history and pretend that Richmond has never been a Chinese enclave that never had Chinese only signage and this expansion of Chinese in Richmond must be stopped.