---Majin's *Official* November 4th 2008 General Election Recommendations---

[Majin]

Originally Posted by krudmonk

Isn't that terrorism?

Not if you use the courts

[BrianSac]

Originally Posted by econgrad

Your fiance must be extremely ignorant on the Church's point of view. Does she know what the Catechism is? It is the book of Catholic belief that are the rules of the Church, that states that the practice of Homosexuality is an sin against the Church and God. If you claim you are a Catholic, you cannot in good conscious vote against Prop8. This means, you are really not a Catholic. 2357 of the Catechism, tell her and other ignorant Catholics to read it. If they disagree, they need to change religions.

Maybe his fiance has got it right and the church has got it wrong. Not everything the Catholic church does is necessarly right nor within true Christian doctrine, same applies to the Mormon church or any other church.

[Cynikal]

And not every parish is the same. There is a world of difference between Holy Spirit (Land Park) and St. Francis (Mid-Town)

[Fusey]

Originally Posted by econgrad

Your fiance must be extremely ignorant on the Church's point of view. Does she know what the Catechism is? It is the book of Catholic belief that are the rules of the Church, that states that the practice of Homosexuality is an sin against the Church and God. If you claim you are a Catholic, you cannot in good conscious vote against Prop8. This means, you are really not a Catholic. 2357 of the Catechism, tell her and other ignorant Catholics to read it. If they disagree, they need to change religions.

I'm Catholic and just about every single one I know breaks some sort of rule (especially when it comes to birth control and sex before marriage). This means most Catholics are not really Catholic, so the Church's "true" followers are a small, select group who need to get laid.

[krudmonk]

I attended a Catholic high school that had a gay-straight alliance. Jesuits are more progressive, I guess.

[urban_encounter]

Originally Posted by econgrad

Your fiance must be extremely ignorant on the Church's point of view. Does she know what the Catechism is? It is the book of Catholic belief that are the rules of the Church, that states that the practice of Homosexuality is an sin against the Church and God. If you claim you are a Catholic, you cannot in good conscious vote against Prop8. This means, you are really not a Catholic. 2357 of the Catechism, tell her and other ignorant Catholics to read it. If they disagree, they need to change religions.

You have a good grasp on the catechism, but when you stand before God you might want to have a grasp of the Gospel; because there wont be a pop quiz on the CCC when you stand before Christ.


"God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him"--John

[urban_encounter]

Originally Posted by krudmonk

Jesuits are more progressive, I guess.

Much..



St Ignatius is also a very welcoming community.

The Jesuit Priests there are wonderful people.

[kryptos]

Originally Posted by econgrad

Your fiance must be extremely ignorant on the Church's point of view. Does she know what the Catechism is? It is the book of Catholic belief that are the rules of the Church, that states that the practice of Homosexuality is an sin against the Church and God. If you claim you are a Catholic, you cannot in good conscious vote against Prop8. This means, you are really not a Catholic. 2357 of the Catechism, tell her and other ignorant Catholics to read it. If they disagree, they need to change religions.

first off, Im not Catholic, Im Christian. My fiance is Catholic, but if youre going to get into Catholics and sins, how about this question...why is that EVERY catholic nation is extremely violent and murderous? sounds to me like they sin ALOT...MEXICO, ITALY, COLOMBIA, EL SALVADOR, BRAZIL...the list goes on. A sin is a sin. It doesnt matter what it is, so if your going to speak out against sin, speak out against your fellow catholics that sin all day. If you live in Sacramento, go preach to the Catholic mexicans that live in Oak Park and Del Paso Heights and West Sac Broderick area about killing people and drive-by shootings and how its a sin against God and the Church. Or speak out against the Catholic Priests that molest children in their Church. Speak out against all sin, dont just pick and pull what sins fit your needs at the moment, BECAUSE IF YOU DO, YOURE NOT A TRUE CATHOLIC.

dont try to push your dogma on me, Im a Christian, I dont believe in Catholicism, infact I believe its a sin against god to hail mary or pray to saints or anyone that is not God himself, but I believe in freedom, and if I believe in freedom that means that while I disagree with your religion, and my fiances religion, I respect your right to practice whatever religion you want. Ill give my opinion, but I WOULD NEVER try to pass a law or discriminate against you. That being said, YOU ARE NOT GOD, quit trying to push your will and the will of your Church upon me and the rest of the population. Youre as bad as the Grand Ayatollah, trying to declare religious law over the land...

[kryptos]

Originally Posted by BrianSac

Maybe his fiance has got it right and the church has got it wrong. Not everything the Catholic church does is necessarly right nor within true Christian doctrine, same applies to the Mormon church or any other church.

LDS mormons were bigtime bankrollers for Prop Hate (8)...

But for all the money they dumped into this prop, they still didnt completely undo gay marriage. there are still 18,000 gay marriages that will forever be valid, and are valid now, and cannot be overturned because laws are not retroactive. And the court will never make anything retroactive, because that opens a door they would never want to be opened. For instance, anyone arrested for marijuana posession before Prop 215 passed could then push to have their convictions overturned on the basis that it was for medicinal use. All laws would be subject to that precedent.

[krudmonk]

Originally Posted by urban_encounter

"God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him"--John

Shit, that is brilliant. It should have been the NO campaign.

[econgrad]

Originally Posted by BrianSac

Maybe his fiance has got it right and the church has got it wrong. Not everything the Catholic church does is necessarly right nor within true Christian doctrine, same applies to the Mormon church or any other church.

Briansac, thank you for reading my post correctly. Your response here is a valid counter-point that continues are debate in a civil and logical fashion. We all know Prop 8 is going to the courts, lets see what happens. Thank you for the debate.

[econgrad]

Originally Posted by kryptos

first off, Im not Catholic, Im Christian. My fiance is Catholic, but if youre going to get into Catholics and sins, how about this question...why is that EVERY catholic nation is extremely violent and murderous? sounds to me like they sin ALOT...MEXICO, ITALY, COLOMBIA, EL SALVADOR, BRAZIL...the list goes on. A sin is a sin. It doesnt matter what it is, so if your going to speak out against sin, speak out against your fellow catholics that sin all day. If you live in Sacramento, go preach to the Catholic mexicans that live in Oak Park and Del Paso Heights and West Sac Broderick area about killing people and drive-by shootings and how its a sin against God and the Church. Or speak out against the Catholic Priests that molest children in their Church. Speak out against all sin, dont just pick and pull what sins fit your needs at the moment, BECAUSE IF YOU DO, YOURE NOT A TRUE CATHOLIC.

dont try to push your dogma on me, Im a Christian, I dont believe in Catholicism, infact I believe its a sin against god to hail mary or pray to saints or anyone that is not God himself, but I believe in freedom, and if I believe in freedom that means that while I disagree with your religion, and my fiances religion, I respect your right to practice whatever religion you want. Ill give my opinion, but I WOULD NEVER try to pass a law or discriminate against you. That being said, YOU ARE NOT GOD, quit trying to push your will and the will of your Church upon me and the rest of the population. Youre as bad as the Grand Ayatollah, trying to declare religious law over the land...

You sir, are a complete Baffoon. Did you read my post? Are you spouting this crap out in desperation? What does the official Catholic belief, that states that if you are Catholic, you must agree and obey everything in the Catechism. If you do not, you are not a Catholic. You supported your previous argument against Prop 8 stating that your fiance and her father were Catholics against Prop 8. Drive by shootings and poor countries and poor people in south Sacramento doing drive by shootings have nothing to do with your previous argument. Your mind is jumbled. I never stated I was God. Re-read my post, all I stated was official Catholic doctrine in order to educate people who call themselves Catholics about what their church really stands for, and it is the Church's official position that you are not a Catholic unless you agree, follow and live 100% with the Catechism. FYI: Everyone is a sinner, that does not mean we should not debate, or even fight for a more moral society. I never pushed any dogma on you at all. Re-read my post and try and keep your anger in check. God is love, remember?

Your statement about McCain also shows more ignorance. He fought for our country, chose to suffer when he had a privilege to be free but decided to stay with his men. He was tortured brutally for 4 years. Why? Because he loved his country and made a great sacrifice for it. Read and educate yourself more.

[L8 4 Tahoe]

Originally Posted by krudmonk

I attended a Catholic high school that had a gay-straight alliance. Jesuits are more progressive, I guess.

I attended Jesuit High School here in Sacramento, the Jesuits are very progressive. We had the GSA too. They believe education is the way to find God. Even though Jesuit is an all boys school there was never one instance of gay violence while I was there. The most influential priest teacher I had was Father George Wanser. Homosexuality came up in his class and he put it the best: "God doesn't care about who you love, just as long as you don't hurt anyone with that love, God will accept you with open arms. The bible isn't supposed to be interpreted literally, if it was, women would be slaves."

The passing of prop 8 is creating the "separate but equal" idea again (cause that worked out so well last century). Shit, gays should have their own bathrooms, water fountains, seats in a theater, and hospitals. Go all in why don't we? The majority should NEVER be able to determine what governs the minority. I am ashamed of being a Californian today. I hope that all the people who voted yes on this hate law will be looked down upon by their children and grandchildren as hateful bigots.

[kryptos]

Originally Posted by econgrad

You sir, are a complete Baffoon. Did you read my post? Are you spouting this crap out in desperation? What does the official Catholic belief, that states that if you are Catholic, you must agree and obey everything in the Catechism. If you do not, you are not a Catholic. You supported your previous argument against Prop 8 stating that your fiance and her father were Catholics against Prop 8. Drive by shootings and poor countries and poor people in south Sacramento doing drive by shootings have nothing to do with your previous argument. Your mind is jumbled. I never stated I was God. Re-read my post, all I stated was official Catholic doctrine in order to educate people who call themselves Catholics about what their church really stands for, and it is the Church's official position that you are not a Catholic unless you agree, follow and live 100% with the Catechism. FYI: Everyone is a sinner, that does not mean we should not debate, or even fight for a more moral society. I never pushed any dogma on you at all. Re-read my post and try and keep your anger in check. God is love, remember?

Your statement about McCain also shows more ignorance. He fought for our country, chose to suffer when he had a privilege to be free but decided to stay with his men. He was tortured brutally for 4 years. Why? Because he loved his country and made a great sacrifice for it. Read and educate yourself more.

So then youre not a catholic? You say that if you do not obey the catechism 100%, youre not catholic, but then you said everyone is a sinner, so if anyone subscribed to that school of thought, the conclusion is that there are no catholics because nobody can obey 100%.

And if God is love, then how can you not treat and love everyone equally, regardless of whether or not they are gay? Judgement is mine, sayeth the Lord. So who the heck are you or the catholic church or the LDS church or any church to judge? You cannot decide which of God's teachings to follow to suit your arguments. You either follow his word OR YOU DONT.

About McCain, that statement wasnt mine, it was a quote from former SNL comedian Al Franken, who was telling a joke on Conan O'brien's show. He was making a point that the point of the war should have been to capture the other guy, and instead McCain got caught, so why do we call that a hero? Ignorant? no more ignorant than the architects of prop 8.

[Trantor]

Originally Posted by kryptos

first off, Im not Catholic, Im Christian. My fiance is Catholic, but if youre going to get into Catholics and sins, how about this question...why is that EVERY catholic nation is extremely violent and murderous? sounds to me like they sin ALOT...MEXICO, ITALY, COLOMBIA, EL SALVADOR, BRAZIL...the list goes on.

what about Uruguay, Argentina, Spain, Portugal?

come on, most catholic countries (in the west at least) are violent and dangerous because most of them are poor or at least have very high income inequality.

but you left out TOO MANY catholic countries, some of which are not violent.

and is Italy that violent really? Aside from the Sicilian Mafia?


what about the violence that protestant countries (actually, angle saxon ones) have been inflicting on the rest of the world in the last 2-3 centuries?

[kryptos]

^^ you missed the point...

probably because im an Obama supporter, so I must be elitist..someone pass the arugula

[bennywah]

According to some lawyers, prop 8 will probably be overturned by the court for at least 2 reasons, 1. the California constitution can't be "gutted" i.e changed to change fundamental rights to a protected class under the constitution, in order to change the constitution that far would require a constitution convention, and a 2/3rds vote. 2. that sexual orientation is proctected under california law so prop 8 even with voter approval is against the law, so the same court that ruled in favor of gay rights would almost certainly shoot this measure down as well.

which if this is going to be the cycle for years to come becuase its now clear that a 60% plus vote won't occur again, and in a normal turnout year probably would have failed anyway, isn't now the time to make an out reach and teach one another about regular gay life, and how people are born the way they are? This also happens to be why in Ma they haven't brought forth a ballot measure to overturn gay marriage there, the court won't allow it, it may come this time that the california supreme court should it overturn prop 8 also make certain that ballot measures also stop unless as said earlier they were to have a constitutional convention?

as far as the federal supreme court, the lawyers fighting 8 are writing the litigation to be state specific so it can't go that far, otherwise a supreme court decision would be almost like a roe-v-wade type of deal? All interesting scenarios for this explosive issue.

[econgrad]

ORANGEVALE, CA - The Sacramento County Sheriff's Department says they don't have any early leads on who spray paint-vandalized a Mormon church in Orangevale. The graffiti, sprayed sometime late Thursday or early Friday morning, was on the church's front sign and nearby sidewalks.

In red lettering, it read, "No on 8."

"Paint washes off and we're just thankful there was no major damage done," said LDS Church spokeswoman Lisa West.

For the church, the damage is more emotional than physical. They, along with other religious organizations, had encouraged followers to support Proposition 8.

"This is a very emotionally charged issue and we understand it goes to the core of people's lives," West said.

She said all they can do is let the vandalism go and move on. But moving on does not seem to be on the agenda for many No on 8 supporters.

"If you strip somebody of their rights, nobody's going to let go of that," said No on 8 protester Jason Word.

"It's more than just marriage for us. It's very personal for us in that we feel attacked," said Darnell Fray-Stephenson, also demonstrating for No on 8.

For the third night in a row, No on 8 protesters gathered at the State Capitol to voice their frustrations over the ban on gay marriage.

Some have taken it further.

A Bay Area group has started the Mormons Stole Our Rights Web site. It accuses the church of advocating for the Yes on 8 campaign, and says they should have their status as a religious organization stripped.

"The Church of Jesus Christ of LDS did not donate any money to Prop 8, but supported the measure, and encouraged members to go out and give up their time and their means," said West. "The (church) members themselves did donate."

At the Friday night Capitol protest, many of those in opposition to Prop 8 said they weren't familiar with the Web site. They also said they're outraged that someone vandalized a church on their behalf.

"We certainly don't agree with that," said Fray-Stephenson.

"I think that rallies we've been having here have been real peaceful," said Word, "I think that's the message we should use."

Many of the No on 8 protesters said they're looking ahead to Sunday afternoon, saying it's going to be their biggest rally yet. They say it could include protesters from across the state, convening at the Capitol.

The Sacramento Police are planning for a large crowd.
News10/KXTV

[econgrad]

QUEERLY BELOVED
'Gay' threats target Christians over same-sex 'marriage' ban
'Burn their f---ing churches, then tax charred timbers'
Posted: November 05, 2008
11:00 pm Eastern

© 2008 WorldNetDaily

Decisions by voters in Florida, Arizona and California to join residents of 27 other states with constitutional protections for traditional marriage have prompted threats of violence against Christians and their churches.

"Burn their f---ing churches to the ground, and then tax the charred timbers," wrote "World O Jeff" on the JoeMyGod blogspot today within hours of California officials declaring Proposition 8 had been approved by a margin of 52 percent to 48 percent. Confirmation on voter approval of amendments in Florida and Arizona came earlier.

The amendments in all three states essentially limit marriage to one man and one woman. In California, the measure states the only marriages "valid and recognized" in the state are those between one man and one woman.

Thirty states now have adopted marriage amendments. However, in California, the vitriol appeared especially high since the state Supreme Court in May created same-sex marriage for homosexuals. Proposition 8 overruled the court decision, readopting the marriage definition California votersadopted in 2000.

On a blog website, "Tread" wrote, "I hope the No on 8 people have a long list and long knives."

Another contributor to the JoeMyGod website said, "While financially I supported the Vote No, and was vocal to everyone and anyone who would listen, I have never considered being a violent radical extremist for our equal rights. But now I think maybe I should consider becoming one. Perhaps that is the only thing that will affect the change we so desperately need and deserve."

A contributor identifying himself as "Joe" said, "I swear, I'd murder people with my bare hands this morning."

Matt Barber, director of cultural affairs for Liberty Counsel, called the statements "hate crimes" for their intent to create violence against someone based on their beliefs.

"This is not just a matter of some people blowing off steam because they're not happy with a political outcome. This is criminal activity," he said. "The homosexual lobby is always calling for 'tolerance' and 'diversity' and playing the role of victim. They claim to deplore violence and 'hate.' Here we have homosexuals inciting, and directly threatening, violence against Christians."

On the "Queerty" website, "Stenar" asked, "Can someone in CA please go burn down the Mormon temples there, PLEASE. I mean seriously. DO IT."

"I'm going to give them something to be f---ing scared of. … I'm a radical who is now on a mission to make them all pay for what they've done," wrote "Jonathan."

Liberty Counsel's Barber said, "This is not free speech; these are 'hate crimes' under the existing definition. Imagine if Christian websites were advocating such violence against homosexuals. There'd be outrage, and rightfully so. It'd be national front-page news. Federal authorities should immediately investigate these threats and prosecute the perpetrators to the fullest extent of the law."

On yet another site, "Americablog," "scottinsf" wrote, "Trust me. I've got a big list of names of mormons and catholics that were big supporters of Prop 8. … As far as mormons and catholics … I warn them to watch their backs."

"I hope they all rot in hell, those servants of a lying, corrupt devil! BAN RELIGIOUS FUNDAMENTALISM," wrote Angelo.

One contributor went so far as to threaten to take out his frustrations on his own family.

"You want me to come back to Idaho for Christmas? Oh wait, my partner and I can't share the same bed? We can't show any affection or any outward sign of our love
for each other? Well sorry family ... no Uncle Adam and all his expensive gifts and delicious cooking for you. Your childrens' presents will now be donations in their name to the equal rights organization of my choosing. As will their and your birthday presents, wedding presents, graduation presents, and everything else I give going forward."

The writer continued, "Remember, I'm angry. And I'm strong from my years at the gym and really am ready to take my frustration out on someone or something."

Barber said the Human Rights Campaign, the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force and "other leaders within the homosexual lobby" should call immediately for an end to such threats.

There were suggestions of a different type of violence, too.

"Hope the gay waiters at their hotel p---ed in all the drinks they served these cretins," "Jake" wrote about protectors of traditional marriage.

"If you're planning a heterosexual wedding in California … be prepared for picketers. Designate someone to watch the parking lot … You're going to have lots of unexpected expenses. Add $500 to your budget for security. … Be prepared for the flowers not lasting to the reception or the tuxedos showing up two sizes too small or the music at the reception being a way too loud or the cake tasting a little funny," stated another threat. "Be afraid. Be very afraid. We are everywhere."

Another even listed addresses of Mormon facilities. Mormon, Catholic and other religious groups were active in supporting the marriage definition.

"I do not openly advocate firebombing or vandalism. What you do with the information is your own choice," wrote Jeremy.








*** And I am done with this discussion. Whoever is wrong or right, may the truth be exposed. Back to hoping Kevin Johnson speeds up development in Sacramento.

[austinjfox]

This is horibble! don't you people realize that supporters of no on 8 are no better than supporters for it now. no one should suffer prosecutuion because of their own personjal opinion. i feel like im living in a third worls country where war is happening. don't you people get it! we all have to live together, so there's no reason in fighting over such ridiculous issues. we should all just get along.