Rapid Transit - Page 86

Northern Light · #**1701** Posted **Jul 21, 2011, 10:22 PM**

My bias is towards LRT in Hamilton, I'll put that upfront, but let me then address the comparisons w/Buffalo and elsewhere.

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Buffalo's LRT is not a complete failure, but certainly not fully utilized, that is, in part, a function of a city and region in decline in terms of population and jobs....

It is also, far more importantly, a function of where the LRT did or did not go.

In the case of Buffalo, the largest base of transit riders and car-less folks who aren't carless due to job-lessness, would be the students of the University of Buffalo whose campus is in Amherst.

The LRT does not go there.

Nor does it serve one of the region's largest employers (the Airport)

Nor does it even connect a major residential hub to its downtown.

Its a downtown line that goes just beyond the core, to nowhere in particular.

To be successful transit needs to reach its most likely potential riders where they live and take them to where they shop, go to school and work.

Buffalo's LRT does not do this.

That's the reason for its lackluster success; along with a downtown that is largely shut down after 6pm on a weekday, with only the crowds from the hockey games at the periphery of downtown providing a small nub of after-hours activity.

It was an American hockey player at the big Juniors tournament who said something like "This makes Medicine Hat look exciting"

******

With respect to the layout of the proposed LRT in Hamilton, it remedies much of this problem.

First, its connected to MAC. Whether you want to go there Real is not the issue, the issue is that the student base there represents a huge number of riders, both commuters to/from campus, but also the resident students, who need to get out to go shopping or to a part-time job.

This benefits downtown and the route of the LRT by promoting same as a good place for off-campus students to live, as they could hop on the LRT and be at campus in a few minutes.

Second, its connected to Eastgate (shopping). No, its not Hamilton's best shopping, but it does draw a few folks and offers a different type of retail from the core, that might be important to some people living in the core or at MAC.

Third, while downtown Hamilton is very much a work-in-progress, it is already more lively than downtown Buffalo and already has more residents.

There are cinemas, a farmer's market, a central library among others that are real draws for those that live outside downtown. They may not be Regional draws, but they absolutely attract people from as far away as Mac or Eastgate.

Admittedly, there are destinations that are missed, like the hospital campuses, some things are unavoidable.

*****

In respect of LRT vs bus, its a simple question

a) Most people prefer riding LRT, is it way better? No. BUT, it simply gives an impression of somehow being more 'middle class' than a bus. Taking VIA is just more classy than Greyhound, and in the pecking order of transit, you draw people to a system sometimes because of the technology choice. Obviously route, frequency, cleanliness and fares all matter too, but technology does too.

b) Developers everywhere tend to invest around heavy rail/LRT because of its permanence. Obviously it is removable, and just because its there does not mean there will be high ridership/service. But, bus frequency, all other things being equal, will bring fewer riders, and is more subject to cuts by whim...(few gov'ts would dare to build a 1B LRT then run 30min-service on it.)

c) Because LRT has higher capacity to move people and is more attractive to most potential riders, all other things being equal, large employer will prefer to locate along it; the residents and the shopping follow.

Obviously its not as easy as all that, and you need to have other pieces in place like nice streetscapes, restored heritage buildings, schools that people would want to send their kids too, and so on, but LRT is one piece of that puzzle.

d) LRT will invariably lead to renewed and beautified streetscapes along the streets it operates on; where buses will trigger no such spending.

******

Finally, there is no 'choice' of LRT vs Full-day GO service.

That's coming anyway, and entirely out of provincial coffers.

While LRT, if/when it comes will also be heavily subsidized from outside, meaning great leverage for Hamilton in terms of what it spends vs what it takes home.

******

Lastly, I see the residential tide turning.

I'll grant that it hasn't really yet.....

But its certainly doing so all over the place, and I would expect Hamilton to be no different, there's been a generation shift, based on ecology, lifestyle preferences and the price of gas, which is just shifting most cities toward a more urban orientation.

SteelTown · #**1702** Posted **Jul 22, 2011, 12:52 AM**

Touch and GO on LRT

http://www.thespec.com/news/local/ar...-and-go-on-lrt

MPP Ted McMeekin says there’s little chance Hamilton will land Light Rapid Transit unless the city makes it a priority.

“My read on LRT, put very simply, is we’ll take our cues from the City of Hamilton,” he said. “Let me say it as bluntly as I can: If LRT is not a priority for the city council and the citizens it represents, the province is highly unlikely to come to the table with big bucks to do it.”

McMeekin’s comments mark the second time this week a provincial official has stressed the importance of the city’s enthusiasm and desire for securing LRT. Earlier this week, Metrolinx, the regional transportation agency in charge of rapid transit, said public support will be “critical to successfully implementing the rapid transit this region needs.”

Those comments come after City Manager Chris Murray and Mayor Bob Bratina signalled a move away from pursuing LRT in favour of prioritizing all-day GO service. Part of that move was to suspend all non-essential work on LRT, which means a study of development possibilities along the LRT line will be cut short and the number of city staff working on LRT will shrink from six or seven to one.

This week, LRT advocates have raised concerns about how the city’s apparent cooling on the issue would be affected by comments from city hall.

However, in contrast to his comments earlier this week, Bratina said Thursday that LRT is a priority.

“We’re still in the LRT game,” he said.

He did, however, stress all-day GO service is much closer on the horizon.

“LRT has not changed on the priority list. GO has been a priority for some time and is imminent. No one believes LRT will be operating until 2020 at least.”

Bratina also said there could be other routes, cheaper than the Eastgate Square-to-McMaster option the city has been studying.

“Perhaps a line to McMaster up to Mohawk Road, which would be about 8 kilometres,” he said. “There could be other considerations of the LRT that might be less costly if that’s what the indications show.”

McMeekin says it will be up to Hamilton to convince Metrolinx that LRT is a good investment and will spur development and movement downtown.

“In the absence of that, it isn’t likely going to happen,” said McMeekin.

msakalau · #**1703** Posted **Jul 22, 2011, 2:29 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by realcity

No I believe our LRT will function more like Buffalo's and not like Portland or Charlotte, because Portland and Charlotte are totally different cities. Charlotte has doubled in size in the last 30 years and Portland created a urban boundary and stuck to it. Hamilton is more like Buffalo.

I currently attend school in Buffalo for Urban Planning, and ride the Metro quite often when needing to go downtown. (Ironically their line ends at the University at Buffalo South Campus. There is a shuttle service right in front of the metro station that leads to the larger campus, but it isn't the ideal. there were plans in the 70/80s to extend the metro to Amherst, but residents were vehemently against having a subway run through the suburbs. Since Amherst was more swampy, water was a big issue) However, Buffalo in terms of demographics is night and day when comparing it to Hamilton's ridership. I mean this both metaphorically and literally. Buffalo is severely racially and economically segregated. Riding the metro you see just how much this is true, and how the suburbs have had an effect on people living in the inner city. The metro in Buffalo was constructed for the reason of providing jobs in a failing industrial city, which is why it set the city back.

I disagree with Realcity. I feel Hamilton's LRT would function more like a European system, or even the examples of Portland and Charlotte. And plus, Hamilton's Rapid Transit team has had a set goal and vision for the LRT system. Not to mention, Buffalo's above-ground portion is closed to vehicular traffic, which has contributed to the perceived failure of the metro system. (Although, Buffalo has plans to return traffic on Main Street) So, as long as cars, bikes, LRT and pedestrians all have some sort of space on the road, it has the potential to bring people back downtown.

Hamilton is in a perfect position to initiate a true transit system for the city, that could really alter how development will occur in the future (with extended GO service) for the better.

padthai · #**1704** Posted **Jul 22, 2011, 1:55 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteelTown

Touch and GO on LRT
Bratina also said there could be other routes, cheaper than the Eastgate Square-to-McMaster option the city has been studying.

“Perhaps a line to McMaster up to Mohawk Road, which would be about 8 kilometres,” he said. “There could be other considerations of the LRT that might be less costly if that’s what the indications show.”

Ugh...just more signals to Metrolinx and the upper levels of government that Hamilton is schizophrenic and unable to make up its mind. Why are we even spending all this time and effort studying the B-Line if the mayor's going to change his mind on a whim?

Starting to feel like the stadium debate all over again..."Maybe an LRT to Confederation Park? No wait...I meant West Harbour...no wait...what are we talking about again?"

c@taract_soulj@h · #**1705** Posted **Jul 22, 2011, 5:11 PM**

Buffalo's LRT really could serve a purpose if the city allowed it to. If you ask me, I think expansion further into the suburbs (Amherst/Williamsville/Niag Falls) should have been implemented years ago. 15 stations in a declining population not reaching beyond it's boundaries does much justice.

They're not the only city with population decline however (see Cleveland 450K/Pittsburgh 320K). Mind you, the metro areas of both are larger by a million people or so but again, both LRT's reach into the suburbs where as Buffalo's doesn't.

With Hamilton alike most Canadian cities, population decline just isn't a reality. Questions based upon whether transit would work or not shouldn't even be questioned at all. There are a handful of Canadian cities big or small that would welcome LRT, only if they had the funding for it. London, Hamilton, Halifax, Winnipeg, Saskatoon(much smaller but experiencing mass gridlock) and Waterloo (just recently approved)

Ancaster/Stoney Creek and Hamilton Mountain are continuously developing at a decent pace. Rapid Transit is no more than a crucial artery transporting it's citizens to and from it's boundaries as we and other areas expand. In Buffalo's case, development seems to be at a much slower pace so expansion out of the city proper needs to be examined for it to truly be successful.

As for GO Transit I don't understand at all why it and LRT are having such a boxing match. Bring all day service and a second station to the east-end and while on the subject let's get that VIA Rail thingy I've heard so much about back downtown

thistleclub · #**1706** Posted **Jul 22, 2011, 7:22 PM**

It all reminds me a bit of the have-at-it-ness of What's Riding On City Transit Options?

Downtown VIA service would be a surprise. Stoney Creek not so much.

bigguy1231 · #**1707** Posted **Jul 22, 2011, 8:18 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by padthai

Ugh...just more signals to Metrolinx and the upper levels of government that Hamilton is schizophrenic and unable to make up its mind. Why are we even spending all this time and effort studying the B-Line if the mayor's going to change his mind on a whim?

Starting to feel like the stadium debate all over again..."Maybe an LRT to Confederation Park? No wait...I meant West Harbour...no wait...what are we talking about again?"

It's not just Hamilton that can't make up it's mind. Just look at Toronto or even worse Ottawa. In Toronto they cancelled LRT and the Transit city plan to build a subway extention. In Ottawa they cancelled the first plan they had already contracted for, costing them millions in penalties to the contractors and the newest plan is also facing huge problems getting approved.

In both cases the province has sat back and let the city's make their decisions without threat. Why would our process be any different than theirs. If anything we have been moving along alot smoother than them with less opposition. At least most of our councillors are on board with the idea of LRT. Why would the province be threatening to pull our funding and not theirs.

It's unfortunate that the process in this city has been hijacked by a handful of zealots who are trying to steer the process in the direction that they want it with as little discussion as possible. It's almost as if they are hiding something or trying to pull the wool over our eyes so they can ram this through without the idea being properly vetted. What don't they want us to know?

SteelTown · #**1708** Posted **Jul 25, 2011, 1:08 PM**

haha

Graeme MacKay
http://www.thespec.com/opinion/carto...torial-cartoon

DC1983 · #**1709** Posted **Jul 25, 2011, 3:29 PM**

^ BAHAHA! Good one, Graeme!

"New stadium? We don't want your money!! Clean Harbourfront? TAKE YOUR MONEY AND SHOVE IT! Paid-for Rapid Transit System? Who do you think we are, Kitchener-Waterloo? GO F YOURSELVES, This is an NPD-Town, Dalty!"
..is what that cartoon says to me.

SteelTown · #**1710** Posted **Jul 30, 2011, 12:10 AM**

http://www.thespec.com/news/local/ar...-or-journalism

From Paul Berton, editor-in-chief of The Hamilton Spectator and thespec.com.

SteelTown · #**1711** Posted **Aug 2, 2011, 9:48 PM**

Do you guys support Herman Turkstra idea of holding a referendum on LRT?

I think the last time Hamilton had a referendum was on allowing a casino in downtown Hamilton.

Personally I'm always supportive of a referendum especially on LRT which will have a lasting impact in Hamilton.

MalcolmTucker · #**1712** Posted **Aug 2, 2011, 9:51 PM**

Well, for a vote you need a project that is scoped, planned, and funded. Any uncertainty would lead to rejection.

SteelTown · #**1713** Posted **Aug 2, 2011, 9:58 PM**

We've got on going work happening with the B Line environmental assessment. So we'll have it scooped and planned out.

It's not funded because the Queen's Park won't act until the City is fully committed to the B Line LRT.

drpgq · #**1714** Posted **Aug 3, 2011, 4:34 PM**

I'd be OK with the idea of a referendum, especially for such a big project. The only thing is the councilors would still have to implement it and I sense more and more of them aren't particularly keen on it.

markbarbera · #**1715** Posted **Aug 3, 2011, 4:52 PM**

I'm hesitant about a referendum. While I normally support the concept of referrenda on large capital projects, I fear it would be the death knell for LRT in Hamilton. Outside the bubble of pro-LRT supporters (among whom I count myself), I don't see there being enough overall support among the general population to carry a vote.

durandy · #**1716** Posted **Aug 3, 2011, 8:18 PM**

I'm not sure I agree with you there Mark. It depends on whether the full cost is also indicated. If the question is: do you support LRT as well as a five year 5% increase in property taxes then there's no way. But if the question is just whether or not we want new shiny trains fully funded by the province, even though everyone knows that's never going to happen, then I bet you'd have huge support.

This whole exercise by the way is going to seem pretty futile come fall.

SteelTown · #**1717** Posted **Aug 4, 2011, 12:45 PM**

But regardless of Harper’s motives, the prime minister was reluctant to talk about one of Hamilton’s hottest topics — Light Rail Transit. When asked if Hamilton could expect to see the same kind of federal funding that other Ontario municipalities have received for LRT, the prime minister said he couldn’t comment.

“All applications of that nature will be looked at, but I’m not in a position today to comment on whether we would approve such an application.”

http://www.thespec.com/news/local/ar...er-really-here

MalcolmTucker · #**1718** Posted **Aug 4, 2011, 1:27 PM**

The feds customarily don't approve projects until provinces do, since the feds can't really transfer money directly to cities.

SteelTown · #**1719** Posted **Aug 4, 2011, 7:33 PM**

Notice of Public Information Centres for Transit Project Assessment Process Hamilton B-Line Rapid Transit Project

The City of Hamilton has developed a plan for the introduction of Rapid Transit (RT) in the B-Line corridor over 13.78 kilometres between McMaster University and Eastgate Square. The objective of this work is to enhance transit service over the next 25 years and beyond by introducing high frequency RT service using Light Rail Transit (LRT). In addition to terminus stops at McMaster and Eastgate, line stop will be strategically located along the route for access by walking, cycling and north-south bus routes.

This project is being implemented in accordance with Ontario Regulation 231/08, Transit Projects and Greater Toronto Transportation Authority Undertakings (Transit Projects Regulation) of the Environmental Assessment Act. As part of the Transit Project Assessment Process (TPAP), an Environmental Project Report is being prepared and will be available for public review by fall of this year. All information produced in association with this project is available on the City’s Rapid Transit website: www.hamiltonrapidtransit.ca.

When & Where
Citizens of Hamilton (including the public, agencies and other interested persons) are encouraged to participate actively in the Transit Project Assessment Process and are welcome to either attend Public Information Centres (PICs) or contact RT staff directly with your comments and/or questions. PICs are planned for the following dates:

Monday, August 15, 2011
6:00 PM – 8:00 PM
Sackville Hill Senior’s Centre
780 Upper Wentworth Street, Hamilton

Tuesday, August 16, 2011
6:00 PM – 8:00 PM
The Grand Olympia Hospitality & Convention Centre
660 Barton Street, Stoney Creek

Wednesday, August 17, 2011
12:00 PM (noon) – 8:00 PM
Hamilton Convention Centre, Albion Room
1 Summers Lane, Hamilton

Thursday, August 18, 2011
12:00 PM (noon) – 8:00 PM
Hamilton Convention Centre, Albion Room
1 Summers Lane, Hamilton

If you have project-related questions or would like to be added to our project mailing list, please contact rapidtransit@hamilton.ca.

SteelTown · #**1720** Posted **Aug 8, 2011, 2:29 AM**

Chris Murray is back to work tomorrow. Should be interesting.