Sandy Hill Truck Tunnel

[passwordisnt123]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I would prefer a subway under Rideau-Montreal to this.

I too would prefer a Rideau/Montreal subway to this.

Or a Bank Street subway.

Or an extension of the Trillium Line into Gatineau.

Or a Kettle Island interprovincial crossing.

Or heck I'd even prefer repeated kicks to the trousers for that matter over wasting this money on the truck tunnel.

[DoTheRightThing]

Originally Posted by passwordisnt123

…..
If anybody is still on the fence about the stupidity of the truck tunnel, I invite them to read up on Boston's Big Dig. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Dig

Anyone who is against tunnels loves to trot out 'the big dig' to prove their points but the fact is since then many road tunnels have and are being built with most of them pretty close to being on-time on-budget.


Here's a reference to a dozen or so examples of new road/truck tunnels in urban centres in the last 10 years:

http://www.ssd-ottawa.ca/tunnel-alte...Around-the-Wor

[DoTheRightThing]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Frankly if any of these ideas were cheap or feasible there would be a lot more road tunnels around.

There are in fact a lot more road tunnels around....a number of examples are listed here:


http://www.ssd-ottawa.ca/tunnel-alte...Around-the-Wor

[DoTheRightThing]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I don't think there will ever be a Kettle Island Bridge, but, if there were, why would it "be used by a limited number of trucks"? What alternative would truck traffic have, assuming King Edward would be closed to heavy vehicles?

This comment is typical of Ottawa residents who have very limited knowledge of the route proposed through Gatineau from a Kettle Island bridge (Montee Paiement). It is an urban arterial road with lots of commercial/retail and residential dwellings (even private driveway entrances!). During the Kettle Is bridge study the Gatineau City council passed a resolution that said in no uncertain terms that it was unacceptable to close King Edward to trucks and divert them all to Montee Paiement.

The truth is, with a Kettle Is bridge the trucks would be shared across both routes and the technical studies done at that time showed 60% of the trucks would find the existing King Edward route more desireable than the new bridge.

1.2B$ (the cost of the new bridge estimated in 2013$) to reduce the trucks downtown by 40% and then spread them onto other urban arterial roads elsewhere in the NCR?

I have an idea of how to accomplish the same thing for free! Open the existing Vanier Parkway to trucks and let them spread 50/50 between Rideau/KingEdward and Vanier Parkway.

If the Kettle Is bridge was such a no-brainer it would have happened by now. The fact is, there are a lot of issues with that idea and they are not all about NIMBYism (although that is no doubt a factor too!)

Here's another thing that few people realize. They look at a map and say, here's a great line we can draw, extend the aviation parkway across a new Kettle Island bridge and up Montee Paiement and ergo a new connection from the 417 to the 50. Looks like a great route. Fact is, that route is 10km long and along the route there are at least a dozen signalized intersections. I can't imagine why cars/trucks headed between the 50 and 417 would find that preferable to the Macdonald-Cartier bridge.

[DoTheRightThing]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It's been the classic smokescreen used against the Kettle proposal for several decades now.

"B-b-b-b-ut Kettle Island won't take *every single* truck off King Edward, so may as well not do it!"

The analyses performed during the Kettle Is bridge study estimated that this bridge would attract about 40% of the trucks away from King Edward. The other bridge corridor options being studied would attract even fewer.

The unfortunate reality of our situation in the NCR is that no other new proposed corridor can come anywhere close to competing with the Macdonald-Cartier bridge. Freeways 5 and 50 direct to a 6-lane bridge and then a 2.3kms from there to the 417 through downtown Ottawa. No other proposed corridors can beat that and the M-C bridge is bound to always and forever do the heavy lifting for interprovincial traffic in the NCR.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by DoTheRightThing

There are in fact a lot more road tunnels around....a number of examples are listed here:


http://www.ssd-ottawa.ca/tunnel-alte...Around-the-Wor

Not sure any of those is analogous to what is being proposed for Ottawa. Closest would probably be Brisbane, and the company that built it went bankrupt, so not exactly a smashing success.

[DoTheRightThing]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Where do you think the majority of the truck traffic to/from Gatineau is headed? If headed to/from Montreal and east, the A50 should be the proffered option. Do you think there is a lot of truck traffic between Gatineau and Orleans?

The most detailed and recent technical info about routings of interprovincial trucks in the NCR:

http://www.ssd-ottawa.ca/interprovincial-truck-studies

[DoTheRightThing]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I would say most of the focus of interprovincial bridge discussions in Ottawa-Gatineau is on getting heavy trucks out of Lowertown-Rideau-King Edward.

Making life easier for commuters (especially those from Gatineau) does not seem to be top-of-mind in the discussion, even if admittedly it's probably an unstated secondary concern.

It's also worth noting that it's quite rare these days to have the issue brought up here in Gatineau by politicians and residents alike. Though I am sure you can find individual Gatinois who have long commutes into Ottawa who rage about traffic and bridges, but I don't really hear much. And I am on Gatineau political forums and also have a pretty big network of acquaintances here. Many of whom work in Ottawa. It's been many years since anyone said to me "we need another bridge and we need it now!"

-----

Thanks for the report on the optics from the Gatineau side. I concur that the traffic levels across the bridges, although high, are not a huge issue. East-West congestion on both sides of the river are far worse than interprovincial.

[DoTheRightThing]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I have to say that I am always surprised at how so few people in Ottawa seem concerned about the situation with heavy trucks in Lower Town.

I know, its depressing. Probably though few understand how bad it really is. For 4-5 hours of each day there are 200 trucks per hour rumbling along Waller, Rideau and King Edward, snaking tight turns through intersections that carry 5000-10,000 pedestrians per day. That's 1 truck driving by every 18 secs! most of which are tractor trailers. Can you name a single other large city in Canada that has this kind of a nightmare going on? … for 52 years and counting.

[lrt's friend]

You would make a Rideau-Montreal route cross at Blair station to serve south Orleans. It is very common to have crossing routes to provide additional connectivity. The Innes route west of Blair is very low density.

[lrt's friend]

Part of the reason why we have east-west transport problems is the inadequacy of north-south routes. Forcing all traffic from the east half of Gatineau to cross at downtown causes an east-west problem. Both Ottawa and Gatineau have grown tremendously to the east since the MacDonald-Cartier bridge opened in the 1960s. It is time for a more easterly bridge.

[DoTheRightThing]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Not sure any of those is analogous to what is being proposed for Ottawa. Closest would probably be Brisbane, and the company that built it went bankrupt, so not exactly a smashing success.

In my opinion some of these are remarkably analogous. For example here's a bit about 2 of the dozen or so tunnels on that list:

1. Port of Miami Tunnel

Nearly 16,000 vehicles travel to and from the PortMiami (POM) through downtown streets each weekday. Truck traffic makes up 28% (or 4,480) of this number (Source: 2009 PB Americas Traffic Study). Existing truck and bus routes restrict the port’s ability to grow, drive up costs for port users and present safety hazards. They also congest and limit redevelopment of the northern portion of Miami’s Central Business District.
The benefits of the PortMiami Tunnel include:
- Providing a direct connection from the PortMiami to highways via Watson Island to I-395
- Keeping the PortMiami, the County’s second largest economic generator, competitive
- Making downtown streets safer by reducing congestion on downtown streets

http://www.portofmiamitunnel.com/pro...ct-overview-1/

2. Sydney North Connex

NorthConnex will allow motorists to bypass 21 sets of traffic lights along Pennant Hills Road, providing more reliable and safer travel conditions, while also returning local streets to local communities.
NorthConnex will redirect around 5,000 heavy vehicles each day off Pennant Hills Road into the tunnel, improving local air quality and reducing traffic noise.
A tunnel is the lowest impact solution to improve the journey for motorists between the M1 and M2 motorways. The construction and operational impacts are less than the impacts caused by other types of road projects, such as bridges and overpasses.
A tunnel will ensure a smooth transition between the M1 and M2 motorways without negatively impacting surface properties and traffic.

http://northconnex.com.au/community/faqs#ip-anchor-03

[DoTheRightThing]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Part of the reason why we have east-west transport problems is the inadequacy of north-south routes. Forcing all traffic from the east half of Gatineau to cross at downtown causes an east-west problem. Both Ottawa and Gatineau have grown tremendously to the east since the MacDonald-Cartier bridge opened in the 1960s. It is time for a more easterly bridge.

Ottawa's east-west congestion issues most certainly are not due to a lack of north-south connections. True, in Gatineau it could be argued that the east-west congestion could be alleviated by another easterly bridge. However it could also be argued that it could be solved by better east-west transit to improve the modal share of transit for trips from the east to downtown Hull. Maybe the money building a bridge to Ottawa might be better spent on better east-west transit to downtown Hull?

[DoTheRightThing]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Ventilation, escape routes, access points during construction, sink holes, etc.

I discussed these issues with the consultants who did the truck tunnel feasibility study...I'm assuming they know what they're talking about.

Ventilation: they were confident the tunnel could be ventilated through the ends, no intermediate ventilation points necessary. The Sydney North Connex tunnel is ventilated in this way. It is 9km long

Escape Routes: Also out of the ends, this is why they proposed twin separate tunnels where the escape routes are passageways every 250m from one tunnel (where a problem might occur) to the other separate tunnel

Construction: only at the ends of the tunnels

Sink Holes: the tunnel would be deep enough that it will be tunneled through bedrock 100% of the way via tunnel boring machines.

[DoTheRightThing]

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

What should REALLY be done is the cut-and-cover along King Edward north, and then a tunnel into the hillside at Rideau/King Edward. The tunnel turns slightly west, extending beneath uOttawa and popping up above the surface at Nicholas and the SITE building. Thru-car traffic is then diverted off Nicholas North completely onto Waller. In the end the Nicholas/Laurier interchange and transitway road can finally be reorganized as per the past plans, making the neighbourhood more friendly for pedestrians.

And I know, I know, the studies have been done already, but still. Really?

Yes, this option just seems so much more appealing....shorter, cheaper, better connection to the 417 (ie. avoids the crazy roundabout idea). It was considered but the people who did the study were concerned about the geotechnical issues of a tunnel routed through this area of Sandy Hill towards Nicholas, while they were much more confident of tunneling through good quality bedrock on their recommended alignment towards the Vanier Parkway. Maybe a second opinion/closer look on this might be possible.

[DoTheRightThing]

Lots of posts here about the crazy idea of the roundabout at Vanier Parkwy/Coventry Rd. It is a real headscratcher and hard to believe is workable. But here is one thing to keep in mind. A very high proportion of the traffic through this intersection today (and at the 417 interchange) is the interprovincial traffic headed between the 417 and the M-C bridge. So, with a tunnel portal here, the tunnel traffic is not actually new additional traffic being added to the roundabout (yes the trucks would be new), it is just taking the existing interprovincial car traffic and stuffing it in/out of the tunnel rather than sending it on the long journey up/down the Vanier Parkway. Still seems like a crazy idea but it deserves to have a proper traffic modelling analysis done before judgement is passed.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by DoTheRightThing

Ventilation: they were confident the tunnel could be ventilated through the ends, no intermediate ventilation points necessary. The Sydney North Connex tunnel is ventilated in this way. It is 9km long.

https://www.9news.com.au/2018/09/17/...r-expert-warns

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by DoTheRightThing

This comment is typical of Ottawa residents who have very limited knowledge of the route proposed through Gatineau from a Kettle Island bridge (Montee Paiement). It is an urban arterial road with lots of commercial/retail and residential dwellings (even private driveway entrances!). During the Kettle Is bridge study the Gatineau City council passed a resolution that said in no uncertain terms that it was unacceptable to close King Edward to trucks and divert them all to Montee Paiement.

The truth is, with a Kettle Is bridge the trucks would be shared across both routes and the technical studies done at that time showed 60% of the trucks would find the existing King Edward route more desireable than the new bridge.

1.2B$ (the cost of the new bridge estimated in 2013$) to reduce the trucks downtown by 40% and then spread them onto other urban arterial roads elsewhere in the NCR?

I have an idea of how to accomplish the same thing for free! Open the existing Vanier Parkway to trucks and let them spread 50/50 between Rideau/KingEdward and Vanier Parkway.

If the Kettle Is bridge was such a no-brainer it would have happened by now. The fact is, there are a lot of issues with that idea and they are not all about NIMBYism (although that is no doubt a factor too!)

Here's another thing that few people realize. They look at a map and say, here's a great line we can draw, extend the aviation parkway across a new Kettle Island bridge and up Montee Paiement and ergo a new connection from the 417 to the 50. Looks like a great route. Fact is, that route is 10km long and along the route there are at least a dozen signalized intersections. I can't imagine why cars/trucks headed between the 50 and 417 would find that preferable to the Macdonald-Cartier bridge.

No problem from my perspective. Heck, even build another, vastly less expensive, bridge across the Rideau to facilitate!

[PHrenetic]

Originally Posted by acottawa

https://www.9news.com.au/2018/09/17/...r-expert-warns

Good Day.

Agreed.....longitudinal is IMO a bad idea......especially over that length.
and what happens when - not if, but when - there is a collision and fire ?
WTF!!?!
That has always proven to be the biggest killer in all tunnel fires - a lack of proper emergency overpressure exhaust ventilation, always - always - made worse in the cases of longitudinal ventilation. Where do the heat and smoke and toxics go ?! - along the tunnel and it's occupants, instead of out a vent.
Some tunnels have little choice, like the Chunnel, but they had to come up with excruciatingly detailed alternatives and solutions, and even they did not perform anywhere nearly as well as had been planned when reality flamed them. And several funiculars have had this problem - chimney effect, deadly.
Seems to me Australia is building several upcoming disasters.

NoJoy!

[passwordisnt123]

I do find it curious that an account that's been dormant since 2010 and has only commented on this one issue has suddenly jumped back to life by inundating this thread with comments. Are you an alt account of somebody who regularly comments here under a different name? To what can we attribute this barrage of comments?

Originally Posted by DoTheRightThing

If the Kettle Is bridge was such a no-brainer it would have happened by now.

Leaving aside for a moment whether Kettle Island is the right policy option or not, I do think it's worth noting that that assertion is not logically sound. It assumes that all the good ideas or "no brainer" ideas have already been deployed and that there are no problems remaining that don't have complicated solutions.

There are lots of counter examples to illustrate why that argument isn't sound. For example, humanity has been migrating and travelling for about 1.75 million years and it wasn't until the latter half of the 20th century that it occured to anybody to put wheels on luggage.

Similarly, it wasn't until the 19th century that it occurred to anybody to make left and right shoes.

When the smartphone was first invented, it didn't occur to the engineers to include copy and paste functionality.

These are all examples of "no brainer" good ideas that didn't happen until they happened.