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  #1981  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2016, 7:41 PM
eternallyme eternallyme is offline
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Originally Posted by d_jeffrey View Post
And a fraction of the salary... At least, even with high housing costs, it's more or so an "investment". With a lower salary, well you just have a lower salary.
I'd say you are better off if you make a family income of $60,000 in Moncton compared to $100,000 in Toronto?
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  #1982  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2016, 7:53 PM
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And a fraction of the salary... At least, even with high housing costs, it's more or so an "investment". With a lower salary, well you just have a lower salary.
You end up coming ahead in these smaller cities though. Purchasing power is higher outside the Big 3 CMAs and it's been that way for a very long time. What you give up in excitement/entertainment options you gain in standard of living/commute times/clean air.
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  #1983  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2016, 8:18 PM
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I'd say you are better off if you make a family income of $60,000 in Moncton compared to $100,000 in Toronto?
So you'd lose 1.2M$ in wages over a 30 year career? (I know it's simplifying things) Even if you pay 800k$ for a house, that is an investment you will recoup at the sale. So basically it's better to live in Toronto AND retire in Moncton.
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  #1984  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2016, 8:42 PM
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You are always better off making less in a cheap housing market than more in an expensive one. Remember the higher the income, the higher the tax bracket and you spend a much higher amount on necessities and have less for discretionary spending. This is why the highest real estate markets also have the highest levels of non-mortgage debt and the population has little savings as they use their new real estate wealth as a bank machine. That can be fine when prices are rising but when they plunge people end up with negative equity in their homes combined with no longer being able to tap into the home equity as their financial backup plan.

This is made worse by the fact that if one of the two people loses their job in a cheap housing market often they can still get by on one person's income while in expensive markets where people are indebted to their necks this is not an option and bankruptcies soar bringing with it a plunge in discretionary spending throughout the economy leading to even more unemployment and it builds upon itself.

This is the problem with commodity based economies whether that be oil or real estate.........when things are good the money rolls in and this booms the rest of the economy to boot but when things are bad the opposite happens and bankruptcies soar and government debt goes from healthy surpluses to healthy deficits. Alberta and NFLD are proof of that and BC is about to become another example.

A boom in commodity prices also has a negative effect in that it inevitable results in a marginalization of other alternative economic expansion sectors and they become even more reliant on the commodities to boom their economies and gov't revenue and when the crash eventually hits, which it always does, then the effects to the economy can be devastating.

In short, when you put all your eggs in one basket and the basket falls to the ground you have a mess on your hands that can take a long time to clean up.
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  #1985  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2016, 8:44 PM
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Originally Posted by d_jeffrey View Post
So you'd lose 1.2M$ in wages over a 30 year career? (I know it's simplifying things) Even if you pay 800k$ for a house, that is an investment you will recoup at the sale. So basically it's better to live in Toronto AND retire in Moncton.
Yes, I was thinking as I read the last few posts that I wouldn't want to be the working person who moved from Toronto to Moncton for the lower costs/lifestyle and then found herself obliged to move back to Toronto 15 or 20 years later.
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  #1986  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2016, 9:09 PM
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  #1987  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2016, 9:21 PM
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Yes, I was thinking as I read the last few posts that I wouldn't want to be the working person who moved from Toronto to Moncton for the lower costs/lifestyle and then found herself obliged to move back to Toronto 15 or 20 years later.
This scenario assumes a big income gap in favour of Toronto but median family income in Toronto are only average in Canada. Atlantic cities meanwhile aren't really below average. Halifax is about the same as Toronto, Saint John is lower, and St. John's is higher. Moncton isn't tracked yet because it only recently became a CMA.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tabl...il107a-eng.htm

As others have pointed out a proper comparison would also take into account housing market risk, taxes, interest paid on mortgages, and probably a bunch of other significant factors.

At this point I think most people in the more affordable cities are materially better off than people in Toronto or Vancouver.
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  #1988  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2016, 9:52 PM
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This scenario assumes a big income gap in favour of Toronto but median family income in Toronto are only average in Canada. Atlantic cities meanwhile aren't really below average. Halifax is about the same as Toronto, Saint John is lower, and St. John's is higher. Moncton isn't tracked yet because it only recently became a CMA.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tabl...il107a-eng.htm

As others have pointed out a proper comparison would also take into account housing market risk, taxes, interest paid on mortgages, and probably a bunch of other significant factors.

At this point I think most people in the more affordable cities are materially better off than people in Toronto or Vancouver.
Yes, the posts are based on the assumption that the person would take a big earning hit upon moving from Toronto to Moncton. If you are going to earn $60,000 per year no matter where you work, things would look rather different.
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  #1989  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2016, 10:03 PM
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This scenario assumes a big income gap in favour of Toronto but median family income in Toronto are only average in Canada. Atlantic cities meanwhile aren't really below average. Halifax is about the same as Toronto, Saint John is lower, and St. John's is higher. Moncton isn't tracked yet because it only recently became a CMA.

At this point I think most people in the more affordable cities are materially better off than people in Toronto or Vancouver.
This document (http://3plus.ca/documents/Greater_Mo...d37101d4c6.pdf) produced by the 3+ Corporation (the economic development agency for greater Moncton) has looked at this and here are some comparisons:

Median Family Income (2014):
Vancouver - $71,140
Calgary - $98,300
Toronto - $71,210
Montreal - $71,390
Halifax - $80,490
Moncton - $71,800

In other words, the median family income in Moncton and Halifax compares very favourably with the major Canadian cities.

Average Real Estate Price (2014):
Vancouver - $514,950 (7.2x annual income)
Calgary - $459,640 (4.7x annual income)
Toronto - $566,531 (8.0x annual income)
Montreal - $320,323 (4.5x annual income)
Halifax - $276,040 (3.4x annual income)
Moncton - $155,816 (2.2x annual income)

So, as of 2014, housing is four times more expensive (relatively speaking) in Toronto as it is in Moncton. This can have a huge impact on a family's disposable income. I certainly know that in my neighbourhood, we often have middle management type people moving into the area from TO quite frequently and they can't believe how much further their money goes down here than it does back in the big smoke. I've known more than a few of these people who have actually been quite reluctant to move back to Toronto once their term down here in Moncton is over. It's not just the cost of living, but also the space, lack of traffic congestion, neighbourliness and the peace & quiet of the Maritimes.
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  #1990  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2016, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
This document (http://3plus.ca/documents/Greater_Mo...d37101d4c6.pdf) produced by the 3+ Corporation (the economic development agency for greater Moncton) has looked at this and here are some comparisons:

Median Family Income (2014):
Vancouver - $71,140
Calgary - $98,300
Toronto - $71,210
Montreal - $71,390
Halifax - $80,490
Moncton - $71,800

In other words, the median family income in Moncton and Halifax compares very favourably with the major Canadian cities.

Average Real Estate Price (2014):
Vancouver - $514,950 (7.2x annual income)
Calgary - $459,640 (4.7x annual income)
Toronto - $566,531 (8.0x annual income)
Montreal - $320,323 (4.5x annual income)
Halifax - $276,040 (3.4x annual income)
Moncton - $155,816 (2.2x annual income)

So, as of 2014, housing is four times more expensive (relatively speaking) in Toronto as it is in Moncton. This can have a huge impact on a family's disposable income. I certainly know that in my neighbourhood, we often have middle management type people moving into the area from TO quite frequently and they can't believe how much further their money goes down here than it does back in the big smoke. I've known more than a few of these people who have actually been quite reluctant to move back to Toronto once their term down here in Moncton is over. It's not just the cost of living, but also the space, lack of traffic congestion, neighbourliness and the peace & quiet of the Maritimes.
Good post. You got me curious. I will take a peak around Moncton and see what is available. I always wanted to check out Atlantic Canada, maybe a trial stint there would be possible. Wife is flexible, no kids, have to stay in Canada for a bit longer due to wifes circumstances and really having a growing distaste for Vancouver, that and next year I want to start exploring moving around work wise again (mostly remote work but same place too long and getting bored). Question is only money and enjoyment of the area/projects/work. Doing some research and Moncton looks interesting.
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  #1991  
Old Posted Dec 3, 2016, 12:53 AM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
Average Real Estate Price (2014):
Vancouver - $514,950 (7.2x annual income)
Calgary - $459,640 (4.7x annual income)
Toronto - $566,531 (8.0x annual income)
Montreal - $320,323 (4.5x annual income)
Halifax - $276,040 (3.4x annual income)
Moncton - $155,816 (2.2x annual income)
I think this comparison is even slightly misleading because it doesn't correct for commute times, the size and quality of the land you get (e.g. lakefront or oceanfront), or the quality of the housing. A lot of people who live in condos in Vancouver or Toronto would be able to spend dramatically less for a similar place in Moncton but instead they elect to go for a nicer and better-located place. Your options are dramatically better all around.

Halifax prices are inflated because there are a lot of very fancy oceanfront homes and heritage houses in walkable neighbourhoods comparable to what you find in big Canadian cities. Suburban and exurban homes and land are cheap. There is no comparable affordable housing anywhere near commuting distance of Vancouver or Toronto.

The downside of the smaller cities is that if you are in a couple and you both have highly specialized careers you may have a hard time both finding good jobs in any particular small city. You might still be a lot better off with one person not working or working in another field, but lots of people won't want to abandon their careers. Most couples in Canada aren't in this boat though, and a single person can easily pick a suitable city.

Aside from that there are a lot of weird prejudices about Atlantic Canada that mostly aren't true. For example, I've heard people say it's less welcoming to minorities or gay people, outsiders of any kind (I would argue it's one of the friendliest parts of Canada for anyone), the weather is intolerably poor compared to other parts of Canada, it is very isolated (use a bit of your hundreds of thousands of saved housing dollars to take a 1.5 hour flight to NYC once in a while), etc. This stuff is mostly hugely exaggerated or false.
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Last edited by someone123; Dec 3, 2016 at 1:04 AM.
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  #1992  
Old Posted Dec 3, 2016, 5:42 AM
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Aside from that there are a lot of weird prejudices about Atlantic Canada that mostly aren't true. For example, I've heard people say it's less welcoming to minorities or gay people, outsiders of any kind (I would argue it's one of the friendliest parts of Canada for anyone), the weather is intolerably poor compared to other parts of Canada, it is very isolated (use a bit of your hundreds of thousands of saved housing dollars to take a 1.5 hour flight to NYC once in a while), etc. This stuff is mostly hugely exaggerated or false.

A lot of those same things are said about Northern Ontario and most of it is simply untrue with the exception of isolation and big areas that are sparsely populated.
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  #1993  
Old Posted Dec 4, 2016, 6:07 AM
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Trump's cabinet wants to tax Canadian imports 20%.
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  #1994  
Old Posted Dec 4, 2016, 2:35 PM
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Trump's cabinet wants to tax Canadian imports 20%.
Source?

edit: Found it. http://business.financialpost.com/mi...ts-20-per-cent

A policy paper by a private individual is one thing, but having that private individual as Secretary of Commerce will give rise to worries.
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  #1995  
Old Posted Dec 4, 2016, 3:12 PM
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Originally Posted by kwoldtimer View Post
Source?

edit: Found it. http://business.financialpost.com/mi...ts-20-per-cent

A policy paper by a private individual is one thing, but having that private individual as Secretary of Commerce will give rise to worries.
Its bound to happen, protectionism is gonna have to come back with a vengeance.

Globalization allows for automation to be a weapon of mass destruction.
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  #1996  
Old Posted Dec 4, 2016, 8:57 PM
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Originally Posted by kwoldtimer View Post
Source?

edit: Found it. http://business.financialpost.com/mi...ts-20-per-cent

A policy paper by a private individual is one thing, but having that private individual as Secretary of Commerce will give rise to worries.
A trade war will just hurt both countries.. I can't see the US being stupid enough to not realize that no matter who is charge at the top.

In any case, I can't see the American public being too happy about tariffs and such when the cost of their consumer goods starts going through the roof. Oh, sorry, you want to force Apple to make iPods in America? Have fun paying $3000 per unit.
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  #1997  
Old Posted Dec 4, 2016, 9:58 PM
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Oh, sorry, you want to force Apple to make iPods in America? Have fun paying $3000 per unit.
That could be great in several ways: 1) it would drastically reduce the consumption of cheap throwaway Chinese-made goods with high environmental footprints; 2) for all the people newly employed making those goods, the tradeoff is advantageous, i.e. if you go from un- or under-employed to making iPods, you're actually better off even after now paying $3,000 for yours; 3) the extra local manufacturing will have positive "trickle down" consequences on local economies.
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  #1998  
Old Posted Dec 4, 2016, 10:03 PM
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A trade war will just hurt both countries.. I can't see the US being stupid enough to not realize that no matter who is charge at the top.
Seems to me that it would mostly hurt Canada; proportionally, we export a lot more into the US than they do.

I didn't plan it that way, but I now have a vested interest in Canadian lumber (both softwood and hardwood) being subjected to high US tariffs. Interesting times...
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  #1999  
Old Posted Dec 4, 2016, 10:15 PM
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That could be great in several ways: 1) it would drastically reduce the consumption of cheap throwaway Chinese-made goods with high environmental footprints; 2) for all the people newly employed making those goods, the tradeoff is advantageous, i.e. if you go from un- or under-employed to making iPods, you're actually better off even after now paying $3,000 for yours; 3) the extra local manufacturing will have positive "trickle down" consequences on local economies.
1 and 3 are certainly valid. 3 in particular tends to be overlooked. Spillovers from certain industries can have very significant positive impacts on the local economy. But 2 is a bit iffy.

While certainly true on an individual level, this would rarely be true for society as a whole. You would be making a small portion of the population much better off at the expense of making the majority of people (who currently have jobs and won't see higher wages) modestly worse off. For this to be a net benefit to society, unemployment or underemployment would have quite high.

That being said, while in most cases economists support free trade, there is also a trade model that implies that tariffs imposed by a large economy such as the States can, in some cases be beneficial to domestic residents. By imposing an import tariff, a large enough market can affect the global demand for that product, potentially pushing down the world price. In that case, the country would get the benefit of some increased domestic production, as well as being able to import the remainder of their needs at a lower global price. Also obvious is that tariffs in a small economy like Canada's would not have the same effect, and thus economists rarely recommend protectionism for small countries.

Basically, in a large economy, if E is larger than B+D, then the tariff will be a net benefit to the domestic economy.

http://slideplayer.com/slide/1601246/

Moral of the story is the effects of reduced trade under Trump will be very asymmetric. Canada and Mexico will be hurt much more than the Americans will be.
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  #2000  
Old Posted Dec 4, 2016, 10:32 PM
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Its bound to happen, protectionism is gonna have to come back with a vengeance.

Globalization allows for automation to be a weapon of mass destruction.
Protectionism won't stop automation, on the contrary. If businesses have to build plants back in the United States, they will build modern plants which will use as little workers as possible.

This is even more true since american workers are paid more then workers in developping countries. More automation will help the prices of items to be lower than they would have been in less automated american plants, but still much higher then the prices of the same items made in developping countries. So, the number of new jobs won't be that high and the prices of the items will not be as low.

Production moving back in the United States doesn't mean that many new jobs.
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