PHILADELPHIA | 30th Street Station District | 1,200 FT - 180 FT | 85 - 12 FLOORS

[reparcsyks]

[Knight Hospitaller]

"Amazon City" should have an eponymous lazy river attraction with pirañas and blow guns.

[SEFTA]

I can definitely see some world class iconic architecture for their image.

[jjv007]

Y'all are getting a little ahead of yourselves haha.

[DudeGuy]

Originally Posted by jjv007

y'all are getting a little ahead of yourselves haha.

silence infidel

[mrtaouilovestwd_03]

Hey, I'm new to the forums. I can't wait till those diagrams can become a reality!

[Mr Saturn64]

The whole new University City looks like one of those start-up cities you see in China where there's nothing and then supertalls a few years later. Nice work, as always.

[jjv007]

Originally Posted by dudeguy

silence infidel

[Mappy]

Does anyone else feel like that bridge near race street should just be a complete street (road/bikelanes/sidewalks) that connects directly into the grid with Race?

[mcgrath618]

I feel as if though Amazon would be better suited THIS project over Schuylkill, but I doubt that LPT (this is them, right?) would be comfortable to move forward on this that quickly.

[Boku]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

I feel as if though Amazon would be better suited THIS project over Schuylkill, but I doubt that LPT (this is them, right?) would be comfortable to move forward on this that quickly.

No, this plan is spearheaded by Amtrak. They sent out their RFQ for a master developer back in August. This project is also contingent on building out Schuylkill Yards first as that will make the Amtrak property more valuable and desirable.

The pie-in-the-sky hope would be for Amazon to build on Schuylkill Yards and accelerate the build out of that and the 30th Street District plan.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by Boku

No, this plan is spearheaded by Amtrak. They sent out their RFQ for a master developer back in August. This project is also contingent on building out Schuylkill Yards first as that will make the Amtrak property more valuable and desirable.

The pie-in-the-sky hope would be for Amazon to build on Schuylkill Yards and accelerate the build out of that and the 30th Street District plan.

Fair point. I don't necessarily think that Amazon coming here is "pie-in-the-sky" thinking though.
Oh well. Now we wait. At least I think I'll be alive to see this done.

[gttx]

Originally Posted by Mappy

Does anyone else feel like that bridge near race street should just be a complete street (road/bikelanes/sidewalks) that connects directly into the grid with Race?

Yes, totally. That was the initial ambition, and would tie the overbuild area seamlessly to Logan Circle.

However, I can explain why it isn't shown as a road in the plan, in general terms:

1) A bridge at Race St needs to clear the CSX tracks at the eastern side of the river before it can start to drop down.
2) Given maximum allowable roadway slopes on bridges, the runoff from this location down to grade is quite long - I don't remember exactly, but coming down to the grid would require a few blocks
3) There are existing residential buildings there that would be impacted by any sort of bridge/ramp in this configuration.

Ultimately it was decided that the ped/bike bridge shown in the plan, which comes down to grade with a switchback ramp connecting to the Schuylkill River Trail, was a more realistic solution that achieved connectivity without compromising the existing neighborhood. But hey, if there is a better solution that can do both things with an actual road, it would be great.

[Mappy]

Originally Posted by gttx

Yes, totally. That was the initial ambition, and would tie the overbuild area seamlessly to Logan Circle.

However, I can explain why it isn't shown as a road in the plan, in general terms:

1) A bridge at Race St needs to clear the CSX tracks at the eastern side of the river before it can start to drop down.
2) Given maximum allowable roadway slopes on bridges, the runoff from this location down to grade is quite long - I don't remember exactly, but coming down to the grid would require a few blocks
3) There are existing residential buildings there that would be impacted by any sort of bridge/ramp in this configuration.

Ultimately it was decided that the ped/bike bridge shown in the plan, which comes down to grade with a switchback ramp connecting to the Schuylkill River Trail, was a more realistic solution that achieved connectivity without compromising the existing neighborhood. But hey, if there is a better solution that can do both things with an actual road, it would be great.

Ah Ha! that makes sense. The CSX tracks on the east bank sure do make a lot of great planning/design possibilities out of the question.
I've wondered if anyone has even approached CSX with a freight system redesign that would get them off the schuylkill in center city.

Maybe a new bridge down near 61st and Passyunk with a few switches could serve all of South philly instead? Imagine how nice the public space could be around the river with those tracks out of the way! And then the Race St bridge might be more feasible too.

interactive here

[hammersklavier]

I've considered that as an idea too. It makes a ton of sense and opens up the Arsenal Bridge and 25th St viaduct to redevelopment as well. The only really big issue is that CSX would need to reconfigure their Forgotten Bottom yard -- it currently has a north-pointing throat, which means you have to come down through the Fairmount tunnel to access it. But I would think that that would be rectified with a new Schuylkill River crossing for freight.

However, I don't think your plan would be quite enough to drive closure of that riverside line. The reason being, the High Line viaduct itself likely needs significant renovation and reconstruction to be able to support a double-track main -- one which CSX would have to serve with NS and any other railroad looking to serve the port. CSX seems more than happy routing everything that fits through the tunnel as-is and it would likely require more significant traffic-pattern changes such as a long-distance bypass of the City altogether to kick them off those tracks altogether.

[Nova08]

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

However, I don't think your plan would be quite enough to drive closure of that riverside line. The reason being, the High Line viaduct itself likely needs significant renovation and reconstruction to be able to support a double-track main -- one which CSX would have to serve with NS and any other railroad looking to serve the port. CSX seems more than happy routing everything that fits through the tunnel as-is and it would likely require more significant traffic-pattern changes such as a long-distance bypass of the City altogether to kick them off those tracks altogether.

This.

The High Line is going on 115 years old with only one track and I presume a slow speed restriction. The High Line and the east river tracks are CSX's main line for any train operating between North Jersey and Baltimore (and south). Not a exorbitant number of trains, but sizeable. Enough that if only the High Line existed (without significant renovations/upgrades), it would become a choke point for CSX traffic.

[Mappy]

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

... the High Line viaduct itself likely needs significant renovation and reconstruction to be able to support a double-track main -- one which CSX would have to serve with NS and any other railroad looking to serve the port. CSX seems more than happy routing everything that fits through the tunnel as-is and it would likely require more significant traffic-pattern changes such as a long-distance bypass of the City altogether to kick them off those tracks altogether.

Damn.
thought I was onto a solution, but I hadnt looked at fitting double tracks for that full route till now.
It looks like the width is there up to Spring Garden, but from there to Montgomery its basically impossible given the terrain, roads, and other other line constraints. That single track tunnel that is by the zoo and goes under Girard really has no room for another track at all.
back to the drawing board.
thanks for the look over.

[hammersklavier]

Originally Posted by Mappy

Damn.
thought I was onto a solution, but I hadnt looked at fitting double tracks for that full route till now.
It looks like the width is there up to Spring Garden, but from there to Montgomery its basically impossible given the terrain, roads, and other other line constraints. That single track tunnel that is by the zoo and goes under Girard really has no room for another track at all.
back to the drawing board.
thanks for the look over.

When I'd been looking at it, my focus was more on freeing up Arsenal and 25th for other uses ... I actually still think it's worth the investment between that and the ability for CSX to be able to port stage out of Forgotten Bottom (something which the yard's current layout hamstrings). Looking at the map, the only real High Line choke point is through Zoo proper -- the bridge infra looks wide enough to take a second track from Girard up to the junction.

The underlying problem here, though, is that the connection through Zoo is an old interchange track between the PRR and B&O/Reading line up the Schuylkill and is thus underbuilt relative to the needs of a CSX mainline. And of course Zoo is a clusterfuck for any conceivable improvement.

(I also had some differences in my approaches to the bridge -- instead of a tight wye where the Chester and 56th Street branches cross, I incorporated the existing CSX main in a much larger wye junction, for example. Another concern I have is winning space along the Chester Branch between 56th and the NEC as I have competing demands for that particular route in my own fantasies.)

[Kidphilly]

I don't understand the logistics but it seems there could be a far better use then the tracks for cargo (though important)

[Mappy]

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

... I actually still think it's worth the investment between that and the ability for CSX to be able to port stage out of Forgotten Bottom (something which the yard's current layout hamstrings). Looking at the map, the only real High Line choke point is through Zoo proper -- the bridge infra looks wide enough to take a second track from Girard up to the junction...

I went back at looked at it closer.
It does seem possible If they can just slightly widen the tunnel by the zoo. There are a bunch of other difficult engineering steps too, but It could be worth it since, like you said, 25th would be freed up, the schuylkill banks would be freed up, the tunnels under Pennsylvania ave would be freed up, and the forgotten bottom yards could be reconfigured. Though Im curious to see your alignment because i dont particularly like where my new bridge crosses the schuylkill.
check out my two track alignment for CSX here

And here's the overall "fantasy" transit system though I like to think it is a mostly measured/possible system