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View Poll Results: Is SEPTA doing a great job in regards to bus, subway, and commuter rail overall??????
YES 30 46.15%
NO 35 53.85%
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  #41  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2009, 9:18 PM
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There are a lot of things SEPTA needs to do. I will now organize them into priorities:

1. Build the Boulevard extension already! Of all the proposed Philadelphia subway projects, the Roosevelt Boulevard extension is the oldest, most dearly needed, and most important. Currently, there are only two rail spines in the Great Northeast: the R7 to Trenton and the R8 only to Fox Chase. The Boulevard subway (which could run down Bustleton instead, at least to the Boulevard) would provide a key heavy rail spine throughout the Northeast the bus routes could easily feed into; as rapid transit, it would be much faster than buses running down this key spine. In addition, the projected ridership of the Boulevard Subway would be higher than most currently developed projects elsewhere in the nation!
2. Replace the bus routes with trolleybus routes. Currently, Philadelphia has three (3) trolleybus routes, all radiating out from Frankford Transportation Center. In order to be energy-efficient, we must expand this trolleybus system by expanding the amount of trolleybus routes are available. My plan is to do this in three (3) phases: I. Convert all bus routes emanating from Frankford into trolleybus routes; II. Convert all bus routes running from Fern Rock and 69th Street into the city into trolleybus routes; and III. Convert the remaining bus routes in the city into trolleybus routes. Exceptions would include the route running predominately down Broad (C) for traditional aesthetic reasons and the routes following Interstates--like the Schuylkill and I-95--for utilitarian reasons. Also note predominately suburban routes (e.g., the 94 or 96) would remain bus routes.
3. Expand the Regional Rail System to make it more modern: Three (3) key expansions are called for here. The R3 to Wawa, already in development, will allow commuters to commute to the Wawa campus via rail; an extension of the R6 Cynwyd to the Schuylkill would provide a park-and-ride right off that expressway, increasing its ridership and decreasing congestion around the Belmont Curve; and lastly, an extension off the R2 Warminster to Newtown. This route would restore rail service to a town that needs rail service, and would follow the Trenton Cutoff from the R2 to the currently disused Newtown Branch ROW; the reasons this route needs to be done in this fashion are two (2): I: The good folks of Bryn Athyn consistently disapprove of installing overhead electrification in their borough, which has killed Newtown rail restoration several times in years past, and II: the original Newtown Branch ROW crossed the New York Branch (R3) at grade in bottomland; installing a flyover would be prohibitively expensive. Restoring this route following the ex-PRR cutoff would be the cheapest way to do so (as the Trenton Cutoff, being an active freight main, eliminates the need to grade an entirely new route).

Less important rail and transit expansions number into litany, but some include: extending the 10 to Overbrook (and St. Joe's?), trolley restoration of the 23 along Germantown Ave, trolley restoration along 23 ROW in CC (north to Temple?), trolley restoration along the 56, possible conversion of R7 CHW or R8 CHE to 3rd rail feeding into the BSL, West Philadelphia Streetcar Loop, Light Rail along Delaware Ave, Rail Restoration to Reading, Rail Restoration to Quakertown and thence Bethlehem, PATCO/NJ Transit rail expansion in South Jersey, either (a) feeding into the PATCO tunnel or (b) feeding into Walter Rand with River Line-type DMUs, rail service to the Art Museum and Zoo via the City Subway, a Center City loop subway, a MSE/RBE connection (where Bustleton meets the Boulevard), 100 extension to KoP, etc. etc.
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  #42  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2009, 2:05 AM
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^ map? I'm curious, being an outsider.
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  #43  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2009, 2:18 AM
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Wow, three pages already?
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  #44  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2009, 4:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miketoronto View Post
You have to beef up the transit service or people will not use it.
Mike, this simply isn't a high priority in the U.S. If more people cared, the politicians would make it a higher priority. Excepting a few cities, everyone has cars.

You're approaching low transit usage as a problem to be solved. It isn't generally considered a problem in the U.S.; it's considered a consequence of affluence and the country's freedom of personal mobility.

And Philly has decent ridership. No more than four or five cities have better ridership.
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Originally Posted by miketoronto View Post
The routes are not designed at all for suburbanites to use to get around to access rapid transit.
When you're saying "rapid transit", I assume you mean Septa Regional Rail. I think you would be hard-pressed to find a suburban Septa station that didn't have an accompanying parking lot.

Why take the bus when you can drive to the station?
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  #45  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2009, 4:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hammersklavier View Post
There are a lot of things SEPTA needs to do. I will now organize them into priorities:

1. Build the Boulevard extension already! Of all the proposed Philadelphia subway projects, the Roosevelt Boulevard extension is the oldest, most dearly needed, and most important. Currently, there are only two rail spines in the Great Northeast: the R7 to Trenton and the R8 only to Fox Chase. The Boulevard subway (which could run down Bustleton instead, at least to the Boulevard) would provide a key heavy rail spine throughout the Northeast the bus routes could easily feed into; as rapid transit, it would be much faster than buses running down this key spine. In addition, the projected ridership of the Boulevard Subway would be higher than most currently developed projects elsewhere in the nation!
This is the big argument, ridership. The trip from virtually any point north of Cottman Avenue to Center City is too long and indirect if you aren't near Regional Rail. This had to be the intention of several of the spur routes proposed for the system.

Quote:
2. Replace the bus routes with trolleybus routes. Currently, Philadelphia has three (3) trolleybus routes, all radiating out from Frankford Transportation Center. In order to be energy-efficient, we must expand this trolleybus system by expanding the amount of trolleybus routes are available.
I don't see this happening for the simple reason of the additional infrastructure (i.e. catenary).

This might work as a better option for BRT which would make sense as a replacement for routes that are less about getting people around neighborhood to neighborhood as feeding people to a rapid transit route. Several routes that run out of Frankford fit the bill as well as others like the 48 and 32, in particular.

Quote:
3. Expand the Regional Rail System to make it more modern: Three
There are gaps to be sure. The Regional Rail system I think is logistically better assembled than virtually any other in the country thanks to the Center City Connection. Even New York currently doesn't have so seamless a system. What amazes me is that SEPTA gives it so much attention as opposed to CTD but there are simple improvements that seem to languish while stations are renovated - which seems to be the extent of their concern for CTD.

Quote:
Less important rail and transit expansions number into litany, but some include: extending the 10 to Overbrook (and St. Joe's?), trolley restoration of the 23 along Germantown Ave, trolley restoration along 23 ROW in CC (north to Temple?), trolley restoration along the 56, possible conversion of R7 CHW or R8 CHE to 3rd rail feeding into the BSL, West Philadelphia Streetcar Loop, Light Rail along Delaware Ave, Rail Restoration to Reading, Rail Restoration to Quakertown and thence Bethlehem, PATCO/NJ Transit rail expansion in South Jersey, either (a) feeding into the PATCO tunnel or (b) feeding into Walter Rand with River Line-type DMUs, rail service to the Art Museum and Zoo via the City Subway, a Center City loop subway, a MSE/RBE connection (where Bustleton meets the Boulevard), 100 extension to KoP, etc. etc.
All good ideas but here's an interesting addition: Last winter when PATCO held public forums about the waterfront transit plan, there was information regarding other parts of the city lacking adequate transit connections and one of the things noted was a lack of a direct connection between the Art Museum Area and University City/30th Street.
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  #46  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2009, 1:09 AM
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#1 on my wish list is the restoration of the former Reading Bethlehem Branch and resumption of intercity rail to Allentown and Bethlehem.
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  #47  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2009, 5:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
When you're saying "rapid transit", I assume you mean Septa Regional Rail. I think you would be hard-pressed to find a suburban Septa station that didn't have an accompanying parking lot.

Why take the bus when you can drive to the station?
The parking lots at many regional rail stations are a joke. They fill up early and anyone trying to park there and use the system after 9am is going to be SOL.

They are currently expanding the parking here in Exton by adding another 180 parking spaces. However, SEPTA runs many R5 trains to and from the city at Malvern where there is sparse parking. Exton is the next stop but we don't have the level of service that Malvern does. It's stuff like that makes people wonder who in the world makes the decisions at SEPTA. Even the late night trains only goes to Malvern.
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  #48  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2009, 5:04 PM
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Water front light rail could be an effective transit alternative in south philly not only for the water front but also for the adjcent neighborhoods between Front to Third or Fourth and Market to Morris. Neighborhoods like Queen Village, Pennsport and with better connections Society Hill between South and Spruce. All that being said I still think that the Boulevard subway or a subway up 29th to Manayunk via the parkway would both have a higher ridership per dollar return than anything on the water front.
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  #49  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2009, 9:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Parkway View Post
Water front light rail could be an effective transit alternative in south philly not only for the water front but also for the adjcent neighborhoods between Front to Third or Fourth and Market to Morris. Neighborhoods like Queen Village, Pennsport and with better connections Society Hill between South and Spruce. All that being said I still think that the Boulevard subway or a subway up 29th to Manayunk via the parkway would both have a higher ridership per dollar return than anything on the water front.
Yup, I agree on that too. The line which could be built down Delaware Ave would be an effective means of connecting the South Philly neighborhoods who are at a distance from the el or Broad St Line.

A subway up 29th to Manayunk passing through the Parkway would be an enoromous value to the city. One, it would enable tourists to more quickly access Museum Row and two, it'd create an important bridge between CC and Manayunk - something which RR does not address to the extent it's needed.
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  #50  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2009, 12:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
When you're saying "rapid transit", I assume you mean Septa Regional Rail. I think you would be hard-pressed to find a suburban Septa station that didn't have an accompanying parking lot.

Why take the bus when you can drive to the station?
It is normal for suburbs to have feeder bus service to regional rail stations. The map below shows a neighbourhood that has more than one bus route to a commuter rail station. And the station in that map is located about one hour out of the city, and right on the edge of farmland.
Further, bus routes like the one in the map help teens access local college and uni campus', malls, etc.
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  #51  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2009, 12:11 AM
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It's funny how South Philadelphia is a bit out of the loop for rail transit. More SEPTA train routes run to New Jersey than South Philadelphia. To say nothing of the fact that on game days the BSS is quite packed, during SEPTA strikes there isn't even a Regional Rail option as people in much of the rest of the city have.

I've also never pointed out current bus routes that I believe have the capacity for rail. The entire western half of the city east of the Schuylkill needs something. Two heavily used bus routes - the 17 and 33 - operate there to South and North Philly, respectively. A Parkway-29th Street line would be great but also maybe a route from South Philadelphia as well.
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  #52  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2009, 2:31 PM
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Volguus, when I suggested converting the bus routes in the city to trolleybus routes, I was explaining a position which I have espoused for some time, and which was originally suggested by someone on Philly Blog (zur). I am aware catenary is expensive, but the position I take is that we could extend catenary over a few (3-5) routes a year in four phases (first centered on Frankford, then on 69th, then Fern Rock, and lastly catching remaining bus routes that don't stop at any of these three places), thereby keeping costs associated with this down.

There are a few reasons I disagree with BRT. 1. The streets in Philadelphia are, by and large, too narrow to support the dedicated bus lanes necessary for BRT, and 2. BRT is still buses, which still emit a number of pollutants that electrified systems do not; as to the complaint this is simply solving a problem in the "out of sight, out of mind" way, I submit that if SEPTA were to power trolleybus catenary with alternative energy credits, like wind power, there would be no fossil fuel consumption whatsoever related with this plan.

Finally, need I remind you that as of 60 years ago, most of the city was blanketed by catenary? Tearing it all down in favor of diesel buses was one of the least wise transit moves of all time.

That said, the large-scale range of BRT, as opposed to the limitations catenary-bases systems like trolleys and trolleybuses, does have its own particular advantages, namely, the ability to connect far-flung suburbs into rail hubs. A BRT route along Sumneytown Pike from Green Lane to Lansdale or North Wales during peak hours would, for example, increase transit connectivity among the more far-flung suburbs; so would a BRT from Yardley to King of Prussia (i.e., transferring the Cross County Metro idea from rail to bus).

You are indeed right that the Regional Rail system is one of the best-connected regional commuter systems in the country, but that doesn't mean there aren't gaps. Only about half of all the routes in the Philadelphia area were ever electrified, and since SEPTA has no diesel commuter rail, it cannot service the other half.

If you are interested in lack of Art Museum connectivity, may I draw your attention to the erstwhile "thunda" and "eldondre" plans on Philly Blog? Eldondre proposes that the PA PATCO extension not be the waterfront light rail, but rather a service up to 33rd and Girard via the City Subway, connecting 1. CCP 2. Art Museum, and 3. Zoo with the greater Philadelphia system (also involving a connection with the BSL).
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  #53  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2009, 2:38 AM
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Originally Posted by electricron View Post
The term "At Grade" light rail means running on the surface of the planet.

They can be within their own right of ways, in their own dedicated lanes in streets, or in mixed traffic lanes in streets.
Thx for the explanation but I'm still confused. If At Grade light rail can run within subways, then how do they differ from actual subways?
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  #54  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2009, 4:40 AM
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pwp. An at-grade heavy rail subway train only works on a separate ROW from regular street traffic. You couldn't run a subway train on the street with cars. The term subway actually means the tunnel, not the vehicles that use them. There are several differences between subway trains and light rail - pasenger capacity being the biggest among them.

hammer, I should have added that I envisioned BRT as running with hybrid vehicles. Also, I imagine any option as being higher capcity which is something I equate more with BRT in my mind than any other type of non-rail surface transit - at least as I've seen it in other cities.
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  #55  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2009, 2:17 PM
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Volguus, my opinion is that BRT has the capacity to handle higher capacities elsewhere because they have their own dedicated travel lanes whereas here in Philadelphia we only have space on selected roads (like Lehigh or Washington) to handle BRT lanes. Otherwise, Philadelphia roads are just too narrow and what would be in theory BRT weakens to plain old busing.

Also: Hybrid buses = good
Electric buses / trolleybuses = better
Electric trolleys / light rail = best

One of the reasons why I'm proposing replacing our buses with trolleybuses on a city-wide basis (starting from the periphery and moving into the core) is that by constructing the catenary system now we can have partial infrastructure in place to restore rail along selected routes (remember most of our bus routes were originally trolley routes). Trolleys have yet a higher capacity than buses or trolleybuses (but not quite as high as BRT), and light rail higher still, higher than even trolleybuses. But light rail needs both rail and electric infrastructure, and if built with too much street running, as with BRT, the capacity gains caused by purpose-built right-of-way would be erased.

The eventual goal, of course, would be to have heavy rail routes running from the urban peripheries into the city core, along with core and secondary downtown circulators; (trolley)bus circulators feeding the heavy rail routes; commuter rail routes running from the suburban periphery to the core; circulation buses between the commuter rail and other notable suburban "destinations" (e.g. malls); and BRT between the rail hubs and communities inaccessible by rail (like Green Lane or Collegeville). This is a complex system that is only fragmentally built out now, and in its entirety would allow for multiple variant routes from the rail hub to the city core (a good example of what I'm looking for is the two routes to Center City from Lansdale T.S.: either straight down the R5 or along the 96--a route that functions in parts like a circulator, mostly around Lansdale and Norristown, and in others like BRT, mostly along DeKalb Pike--to Norristown T.C., where I could either 1) take the R6 straight down, or 2) take the 100 to the MFL). That is, the BRT should be peripheral to the normal functioning of the system, primarily hub-to-hub transport, but essential to the secondary functioning of the system, i.e., if a major accident or bridge washout leaves a rail line unusable for an x amount of time.

As for Art Museum / U.C. connectivity, my answer: build a bridge! A multiuse-trail bridge across the Schuylkill between the Spring Garden and Vine Street bridges that directly connected with the ECG/Schuylkill Banks on one side and 30th Street Station on the other would solve this transportation issue most elegantly.

Edit: I just found this interesting blog entry.
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Last edited by hammersklavier; Feb 3, 2009 at 3:58 PM.
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  #56  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2009, 10:01 PM
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HS, where in the world would would put a BRT lane along Sumneytown pike to green lane?

Don't you think that starting out with traditional bus service would make more sense?

Lansdale TC, Merck at West Point, Harleysville, Green Lane, Red Hill, Pennsburg, East Greenville would be a logical route. There could be a connection at Harleysville for a Trappe, Collegeville, SKippack, Harleysville, Souderton, Telford bus.
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  #57  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2009, 12:20 AM
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hammer, I never expanded on my notion of higher capacity BRT connecting to currently existing rapid transit - I do indeed picture it on major arteries. I picture it as a happy medium between the infrastructure that should be there and improving the transit options that do exist wherever it would be installed. The choices for streets gets dicier the closer you get to Center City, obviously, but that's not the idea. Swiftly and efficienty moving people from a rapid transit stop to another destination is the important part of the equation that's lacking with SEPTA as it is now.

To be clear, I don't have a problem with trolleybuses. I just don't have faith that the additional infrastructure wouldn't be seen as an impediment to whomever seems to plan things around here. Anything that involves more than tires on asphalt seems to scare the hell out of the people with the money and the authority for laying out Philadelphia's transit network.
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  #58  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2009, 12:42 AM
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Originally Posted by theWatusi View Post
HS, where in the world would would put a BRT lane along Sumneytown pike to green lane?

Don't you think that starting out with traditional bus service would make more sense?

Lansdale TC, Merck at West Point, Harleysville, Green Lane, Red Hill, Pennsburg, East Greenville would be a logical route. There could be a connection at Harleysville for a Trappe, Collegeville, SKippack, Harleysville, Souderton, Telford bus.
Don't stop it at Telford. Take it on into Sellersville and Perkasie, then curve it southeast along PA152 where it can meet the R5 in Chalfont. If you were really ambitious, it could become a big loop linking up with the new 202 Parkway they just started building between Doylestown and just beyond Montgomeryville, and then run along Dekalb Pike back to Sumneytown and return to Harleysville.

Of course, that is probably a good hour and a half trip. Would there be enough of a market for it to make it viable?
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  #59  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2009, 12:44 AM
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Originally Posted by miketoronto View Post
It is normal for suburbs to have feeder bus service to regional rail stations. The map below shows a neighbourhood that has more than one bus route to a commuter rail station. And the station in that map is located about one hour out of the city, and right on the edge of farmland.
Further, bus routes like the one in the map help teens access local college and uni campus', malls, etc.
I wouldn't really call it a "feeder" service. I used to live around there, and most GO patrons drive to the station, rather than take the bus.
It does help Brampton coordinate transfers between routes, though.
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Old Posted Feb 4, 2009, 12:50 AM
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Originally Posted by winxs View Post
Don't stop it at Telford. Take it on into Sellersville and Perkasie, then curve it southeast along PA152 where it can meet the R5 in Chalfont. If you were really ambitious, it could become a big loop linking up with the new 202 Parkway they just started building between Doylestown and just beyond Montgomeryville, and then run along Dekalb Pike back to Sumneytown and return to Harleysville.

Of course, that is probably a good hour and a half trip. Would there be enough of a market for it to make it viable?
I was thinking if you made the route too long, it would require too many buses to keep a decent service frequency. The idea of stopping at Souderton and Telford is it could connect to a Lansdale-Quakertown train.
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