Sacramento International Airport (SMF)

[travis bickle]

Direct flights from SMF to London or Frankfurt would have to be flown with either a 777 or a A330 or A340.

Not in 2013.

Note: I learned today that Lufthansa will cancel Portland-Frankfurt service effective 9.14.09. A casualty of both the economy and Lufthansa's recently inaugurated service to Seattle.

[BrianSac]

Originally Posted by travis bickle

Sacramento's international aspirations will always suffer from the proximity to SFO,

I would tend to agree, but once Sacramentans get a taste for non-stop service to Europe they will demand more. Look at JFK and Philly, they are very close yet there are numerous non-stops from Philly to Europe.

Originally Posted by travis bickle

No one would have thought it could support a daily 767 to Hawaii, yet there it is.

I never understood this. why not, of course we can(could have)

Originally Posted by travis bickle

Airport staff "conservatively" estimate total daily traffic between SMF and London at over 150/day. Frankfurt traffic is estimated at approx 110/day.

Interesting, Don't forget all those SMF European-bound passengers that don't go through the Big 4 airports in Europe. For example, i'll be going to Rome connecting through Dulles. A friend will go to Rome connecting through Philadelphia. No need to go through the Big 4 in Europe: London, Frankfurt, Paris, Amsterdam....if you don't have to.

However, with non-stops to London and Frankfurt I would consider always going non-stop if it were an option.

Originally Posted by travis bickle

Two of the gates are designed as international gates and are deliberately 787 capable.

I assume those gates will be able to handle 777's, A330's, A340's, what about 747's?

Originally Posted by travis bickle

Domestically, they are looking for service to Boston and either Miami, Orlando or Ft. Lauderdale (both leisure and connecting to Latin/South America).

This would be great. We've been ready for this for a long time.....and Mexico City.

[202_Cyclist]

BrianSac- another concern for these widebody aircraft is not just compatibility with the gates but compliance with design standards for runway width, taxiway width, and taxiway separation. The 777, 747, A330, and A340 are Group V aircraft, which require a runway width of 150 feet to comply with FAA standards. Here is a GAO report on the subject: http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d02251.pdf .

[BrianSac]

Originally Posted by 202_Cyclist

BrianSac- another concern for these widebody aircraft is not just compatibility with the gates but compliance with design standards for runway width, taxiway width, and taxiway separation. The 777, 747, A330, and A340 are Group V aircraft, which require a runway width of 150 feet to comply with FAA standards. Here is a GAO report on the subject: http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d02251.pdf .

Thanks for the info. Just curious, if the airlines wanted to add international non-stop flights, and a few more east coast bound non-stops NOW would this be a good thing? I can't help but think you are one of those "environmentalist" nimbys that will do anything to curb our airport from expanding. No offense if you are or aren't.

[BrianSac]

Originally Posted by 202_Cyclist

BrianSac- another concern for these widebody aircraft is not just compatibility with the gates but compliance with design standards for runway width, taxiway width, and taxiway separation. The 777, 747, A330, and A340 are Group V aircraft, which require a runway width of 150 feet to comply with FAA standards. Here is a GAO report on the subject: http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d02251.pdf .

I've seen 747 passenger jets take off and land at our airport. Federal Express brings in DC10's and MD11's (Wide body jumbo jets) for cargo runs. So, the current runway(s) are large enough to accommodate these jets.

[Green Bro]

How long are the runways at SMF? Salt Lake Int'l Airport has been having problems in the late summer due to shorter runways, and large aircraft, on the flights to Paris and now probably Tokyo this summer. The runways are 11,000 feet but with the high elevation the aircraft burn a lot of gas so the SLC-Paris flight has stops a couple times a week in Cincinnati to get more fuel.

What are the int'l destination served to/from SMF?

Here are Salt Lake's:
________________
Los Cabos (Delta, SkyWest)
Puerto Vallarta (Delta, SkyWest)
Cancun (Delta, Frontier)
Mexico City (Delta, [AeroMexico might resume its SLC-MEX flight this fall])
Guadalajara (Delta, SkyWest)
Vancouver (Delta, SkyWest)
Edmonton (SkyWest)
Cranbrook (SkyWest)
Calgary (SkyWest)
Saskatoon (SkyWest)
Tokyo (Northwest/Delta)
Paris (Delta)

[robw340]

Originally Posted by 202_Cyclist

Travis- The Hartford-Amsterdam route is flown with a much smaller aircraft. Direct flights from SMF to London or Frankfurt would have to be flown with either a 777 or a A330 or A340. The 777 holds approximately 300 passengers and the A330 holds 250-290 passengers. This would be about a 50% load factor on the 777 for the SMF-London flight. Clearly, more passengers would be stimulated to fly if their were direct service but a 50% load factor would be uneconomically for carriers. More passengers might also be possible if the airport authority and the carrier marketed this route heavily.

There's no need for such large aircraft from here ....Boeing's 767 ER line has West coast-Europe range, and the 767-200er holds about 180 in 3 classes (Alitalia was using it for a while on it's Milan-SFO flights)....Besides, the 787 is basically a 767 replacement except much more efficient, and its smaller version will fit SMF just fine.

[BrianSac]

Originally Posted by Green Bro

How long are the runways at SMF? Salt Lake Int'l Airport has been having problems in the late summer due to shorter runways, and large aircraft, on the flights to Paris and now probably Tokyo this summer. The runways are 11,000 feet but with the high elevation the aircraft burn a lot of gas so the SLC-Paris flight has stops a couple times a week in Cincinnati to get more fuel.

What are the int'l destination served to/from SMF?

Here are Salt Lake's:
________________
Los Cabos (Delta, SkyWest)
Puerto Vallarta (Delta, SkyWest)
Cancun (Delta, Frontier)
Mexico City (Delta, [AeroMexico might resume its SLC-MEX flight this fall])
Guadalajara (Delta, SkyWest)
Vancouver (Delta, SkyWest)
Edmonton (SkyWest)
Cranbrook (SkyWest)
Calgary (SkyWest)
Saskatoon (SkyWest)
Tokyo (Northwest/Delta)
Paris (Delta)

I believe we currently have these international non-stops:

Guadalajara, Mexico (Mexicana)
Morelia, Mexico (Mexicana)
San Jose Cabo, Mexico (Mexicana)

Honolulu, Oahu (Hawaiian) ....some consider it a foreign country

We used to have these non-stops:
Vancouver, BC (Air Canada)
Kahului, Maui (Aloha) ....some consider it a foreign country

[Rick'sSkyline]

Originally Posted by BrianSac

I believe we currently have these international non-stops:

Guadalajara, Mexico (Mexicana)
Morelia, Mexico (Mexicana)
San Jose Cabo, Mexico (Mexicana)

Honolulu, Oahu (Hawaiian) ....some consider it a foreign country

We used to have these non-stops:
Vancouver, BC (Air Canada)
Kahului, Maui (Aloha) ....some consider it a foreign country

Wasn't there talk or possible rumors about Aeromexico starting nonstop service to Mexico City from Sacramento? That would be good

[Green Bro]

Yes, there were rumors about an AerMexico flight into Sacramento, but it was probably going to fly into Stockton. It did not fly into Stockton because the city did not find a need to build an international terminal since Sacramento, San Jose, Oakland and San Francisco already have customs and immigration facilities. Obviously AeroMexico now does not fly into either Sacramento or Stockton, but they decided to fly into San Franciso which probably was a better choice.

I just cannot see AeroMexico flying into Sacramento anytime soon. AeroMexico has the western geographical region pretty well covered. They fly to Seattle, San Francisco, Los Angeles, San Diego, Salt Lake (share with Delta on the Mexico City flight), Denver, Las Vegas, Phoenix and Ontario.

I think if there is going to be any expansion at SMF it will have to be flights to maybe Ft. Lauderdale, Boston, Detroit, Orlando and Anchorage. Also I could see Mexicana expanding as well down the road and flying non-stop to Mexico City and Cancun, of course this would have to be at least two or three years away. I would like to see Hawaiian Airlines start a Sacramento-Kahului flight and also SMF needs to support the Sacramento-New York JFK flight year-round on JetBlue to prove and show that it can fly into major cities.

I will have to take back what I said about a Lufthansa flight into Sacramento as well. Lufthansa is ending their Portland-Frankfurt flight in September, and if they cannot support PDX and with Seattle being served by Lufthansa as well, there is no way that Sacramento can support a Lufthansa flight with San Francisco being close.

It's all about an airports geographical loction. That is the only reason Salt Lake is a Delta hub, because Denver and Salt Lake are the only two mountain west cities that are situated good enough for hubs. Sacramento is in a bad place. SFO is closer to the Pacific coast and Sacrameto is too far west. The only reason Portland is not a major hub is because Seattle is so close as well. I think the same can go for San Diego not being a major hub for an airline because the average Joe thinks that Los Angeles and San Diego are pretty close so they would rather fly into LAX where they think there would be more connecting options and they think San Diego is too far south, even though it is a very large city. Someone said you could compare Sacramento to Columbus, Ohio. I think that is very true in every way. Columbus has no trans-oceanic flight as is in the shadows of Cleveland and Cincinnati as well, just as Sacramento is in San Francisco's shadow.

[travis bickle]

Aeromexico applied to the DOT to serve Sacramento-Mexico City on 5.14.07. It was granted this authority later that same year. This authority is still in effect. Their application indicated daily service using 737 aircraft.

The problem is that Aeromexico is notorious for applying for service they never use. There are many examples of this.

However, they recently started service from New Orleans (MSY) to Mexico City, so perhaps they are changing their MO.

Sacramento had an additional daily non-stop to Kahului until last year when Aloha Airlines ceased operations. At the time it shut down, the SMF-OGG route was the airline's number two performer (surpassed only by Orange County). There is some talk that Alaska Airlines may resume that service in 2010.

Airport officials would vehemently disagree with any assessment that SMF couldn't in the next five years support Lufthansa service to Frankfurt for reasons previously discussed.

[BrianSac]

Originally Posted by Green Bro

It's all about an airports geographical loction. That is the only reason Salt Lake is a Delta hub, because Denver and Salt Lake are the only two mountain west cities that are situated good enough for hubs. Sacramento is in a bad place. SFO is closer to the Pacific coast and Sacrameto is too far west. The only reason Portland is not a major hub is because Seattle is so close as well. I think the same can go for San Diego not being a major hub for an airline because the average Joe thinks that Los Angeles and San Diego are pretty close so they would rather fly into LAX where they think there would be more connecting options and they think San Diego is too far south, even though it is a very large city. Someone said you could compare Sacramento to Columbus, Ohio. I think that is very true in every way. Columbus has no trans-oceanic flight as is in the shadows of Cleveland and Cincinnati as well, just as Sacramento is in San Francisco's shadow.

I agree with you, BUT, who flys or drives to SFO to fly to Europe? When I fly to Europe I always connect through one of the midwest, eastern, or southern hubs not through SFO. I have flown from SFO non-stop to London once, but it was not worth the drive.

The primary reason SD does not have many non-stops to Europe is because it has only one runway, not because it is too close to LAX.

Orange County does not have European non-stops because it IS too close to LAX. But, There is not one locale in orange cnty that is further away from LAX than Sac is to SFO.

Regarding Columbus, what is it's closest HUB airport, Chicago? How far of a drive?

[BrianSac]

Originally Posted by travis bickle

Sacramento had an additional daily non-stop to Kahului until last year when Aloha Airlines ceased operations. At the time it shut down, the SMF-OGG route was the airline's number two performer (surpassed only by Orange County). There is some talk that Alaska Airlines may resume that service in 2010.

I've taken that Maui flight several times, and they were always packed. Sacramentans love Maui, and they like it even better when they can fly non-stop.

Originally Posted by travis bickle

Airport officials would vehemently disagree with any assessment that SMF couldn't in the next five years support Lufthansa service to Frankfurt for reasons previously discussed.

I agree, Sacramentans are WORLDLY travelers.

[202_Cyclist]

Travis- your right on about the Aeromexico SMF-Mexico City service. This is what a friend had to say about the route:

"Aeromexico told the DOT in 2008 that they no longer intended to operate the route, the authority has expired. See DOT-OST-2007-28240 on www.regulations.gov Aeromexico and Aerolittoral each hold MSY-MEX authority. I think it is actually operated by aerolittoral with an AM code."

[bennywah]

not only is does san diego have only one runway, its one of the shortest in the nation, and in the 6 yr's I've lived here the airport authority has been trying to find a new spot for an airport so it can expand and serve the growing number of people who use it, the airport in san diego is far to small for the 8th largest city in th u.s and for a lot of people I know have to drive up to l.a.x to get certain flights, or at least cheaper. Sac's airort has 2 runways, a lot of space, room to grow and accomodate various aircraft, and the 777 was testing flights there a few yr's back so it could be used in sac besides the new 787.

[Rick'sSkyline]

Was checking the Frontier Airlines website last week; looks like they'll add a fourth non-stop from Denver to Sacramento in September.

[Green Bro]

How is the SFO-Sacramento United Express/SkyWest flight doing?

I was on United Airlines last summer from Honolulu to SLC with a connection in SFO and the guy next to me was flying obviously Honolulu-SFO then SFO-Sacramento. I was surprised because I have not met anyone that flies those short of intra-state fights.

The craziest flight form SLC I think is on Delta Air Lines to Jackson Hole on a Boeing 757. It's a 20 minute flight. You go up then you go down. They probably don't even turn off the seatbelt light.

[Surefiresacto]

757 is a big plane for a 20 minute flight. Is it ever full?

[Green Bro]

I actaully think it's mostly full. I know it's summer seasonal but I even think it's an upgrade from two summers ago when it was flown on a Boeing 737. SkyWest also flies the route too with a EMB-120 (30 seats) so the route is well served from SLC. Usually when i'm flying out of SLC in the morning i'm in the D concourse so I usually see the flight boarding from either D1 or D3 on the 757 and it's looks like there are always a lot of people to make it a full flight.

[robw340]

Originally Posted by Green Bro

How is the SFO-Sacramento United Express/SkyWest flight doing?

I was on United Airlines last summer from Honolulu to SLC with a connection in SFO and the guy next to me was flying obviously Honolulu-SFO then SFO-Sacramento. I was surprised because I have not met anyone that flies those short of intra-state fights.

The craziest flight form SLC I think is on Delta Air Lines to Jackson Hole on a Boeing 757. It's a 20 minute flight. You go up then you go down. They probably don't even turn off the seatbelt light.

United basically uses this segment to shuttle passengers to and from SFO which is one of their hubs; that's the only reason these flights exists..Myself will be on an SMF-SFO-Charlotte flight next month, and the reason i picked that was the departure time was convenitent to me, compared to the flights connecting thru Denver or Chicago....You can fly SMF-SFO as a standalone flight, but it's very expensive and not worth it, unless you have the means of course.