HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Ontario > Ottawa-Gatineau > Transportation


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #161  
Old Posted May 31, 2013, 12:49 PM
McC's Avatar
McC McC is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 3,057
The federal infrastructure stimulus program ended officially in March 2011, but funding was extended to Oct to allow projects already underway to be completed over the 2011 construction season. I know and work with people who implemented the program, and to the best of my knowledge, There was no moment (after 2010) where the government said "here's the money we have left, who wants it?" Federal funding under these types of programs reimburses costs incurred, it's not available up front. Unspent funds at the end of the program went unspent. That's one of the main reasons that the federal deficit has been coming in under estimates every year since the crisis passed.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #162  
Old Posted May 31, 2013, 12:52 PM
NOWINYOW NOWINYOW is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by McC View Post
The federal infrastructure stimulus program ended officially in March 2011, but funding was extended to Oct to allow projects already underway to be completed over the 2011 construction season. I know and work with people who implemented the program, and to the best of my knowledge, There was no moment where they government said "here's the money we have left, who wants it?" Unspent funds went unspent. That's one of the main reasons that the federal deficit has been coming in under estimates every year since the crisis passed.
That sounds right. I knew there was money targeted but not yet spent. Thanks for the clarification.

Am I right about the "shovel-ready" aspect? In other words, if a similar program was introduced again by feds or provincial, is 174 east ready for construction?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #163  
Old Posted May 31, 2013, 2:15 PM
McC's Avatar
McC McC is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 3,057
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOWINYOW View Post
Am I right about the "shovel-ready" aspect? is 174 east ready for construction?
"Shovel-ready" was a key buzzword and criterion for the 2009-11 Stimulus programs, and likely would be again if another round of stimulus spending on infrastructure becomes desirable/necessary. That is, over and above the long term infrastructure programs that were announced in the last federal budget for 2014-202X -- not sure the end date is fixed yet, or what it is, but the budget described it as a ten year program, which could mean an end date anywhere from 2023-2025 depending on the definition of a "year" (yes, that is a thing, *sigh*)

In any event, I'm not convinced another round of stimulus spending will be forthcoming at the federal level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NOWINYOW View Post
is 174 east ready for construction?
That I don't know.

Last edited by McC; Jun 5, 2013 at 11:01 AM. Reason: Saw a typo
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #164  
Old Posted May 31, 2013, 4:10 PM
eternallyme eternallyme is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 5,243
Here's an idea: let Ottawa annex Clarence-Rockland? These municipal wars need to stop. Stephen Blais especially seems to have a total hatred on that community.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #165  
Old Posted May 31, 2013, 4:45 PM
NOWINYOW NOWINYOW is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by eternallyme View Post
Here's an idea: let Ottawa annex Clarence-Rockland? These municipal wars need to stop. Stephen Blais especially seems to have a total hatred on that community.
I think that's the most logical solution and certainly not out of the realms of possibility. I can see this happening instead of the provincial gov't agreeing to take back 174 to their jurisdiction.

Either way, we're going to pay for the upgrades. Municipal, we're paying. Provincially, we're paying. In respect to Municipal, we're carrying a bigger load. In respect to Provincial, we're also paying for areas north of Toronto, east of Ottawa, west of Arnprior all the way to the Manitoba border.

There may be different levels of Gov't, but there's only one level of taxpayer.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #166  
Old Posted May 31, 2013, 4:57 PM
J.OT13's Avatar
J.OT13 J.OT13 is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 24,024
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOWINYOW View Post

I agree, it is a road that goes beyond servicing just Ottawa.
Doesn't that usually mean 100% upper level government funding (2/3 Provincial, 1/3 federal)? Or does that only apply to the GTA?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #167  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2013, 10:16 PM
eternallyme eternallyme is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 5,243
Maybe improve transit as an interim step? They should let OC Transpo take over operations, using Clarence-Rockland taxes.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #168  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2013, 10:32 PM
J.OT13's Avatar
J.OT13 J.OT13 is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 24,024
Quote:
Originally Posted by eternallyme View Post
Maybe improve transit as an interim step? They should let OC Transpo take over operations, using Clarence-Rockland taxes.
Ya, but then the buses would be stuck in traffic. I can't see any short term solutions.

As for long term, with the lack of possible transit routes, be it ORT or commuter rail, the only solution would be widening the highway to Rockland and have the two new lanes should be dedicated to carpool/buses. Run accordion or double decker OC buses, with Rockland paying there proportion of transit use.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #169  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2013, 11:58 PM
eternallyme eternallyme is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 5,243
If traffic on 174 is an issue and congestion at the split, maybe Innes Road could be the route that could be extended? Such would also provide a second access to Rockland from the south, and preserve the 174 as a two-lane parkway.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #170  
Old Posted Jun 4, 2013, 1:49 PM
DubberDom DubberDom is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by eternallyme View Post
If traffic on 174 is an issue and congestion at the split, maybe Innes Road could be the route that could be extended? Such would also provide a second access to Rockland from the south, and preserve the 174 as a two-lane parkway.
To clarify some of the points made here

1) The suggestion to install a Toll at Canaan Road is actually mine, I brought it forward about 18 months ago, it was shot down by Blais's office, but it seems that he's had a change of heart (no pun intended!), and whereas he used to be very supportive of Rockland people, probably because he had visions of running provincially before his recent health problems in a riding that would also includes Clarence-Rockland (C-R), this is no longer the case.

2) The toll Option is a viable threat to C-R, and would likely not be implemented, but the threat of the toll is the catalyst needed to draw attention to this problem east of Trim Rd. This is a problem that should not be the responsibility of the City of Ottawa to deal with, recent traffic survey has peak hourly AM traffic from Rockland at 1200 cars/hour, which means 1 car every 3 seconds. The city of C-R needs to address its commuter problem, perhaps with more public transit through greater subsidies of to CRT Commuter Bus service, car pool incentives etc... This is the likely outcome

3) There is an Environmental Assessment currently underway for the widening of the 174 from Rockland to the slit, 2 lane from Rockland to Jeanne d'Arc, and 3 Lanes further west. They are also considering a secondary option east of Trim of a new southern route utilizing the Innes Road corridors and an already reserved corridor south of Rockland. The reality is that the current alignment of the 174 is not well suited for 4 lanes, it would not bring any economic benefit to the City and it would be an environmental nightmare due to its proximity along the river. It would also basically destroy the village of Cumberland (which is in Ottawa)

4) Assuming a new road is approved, or the 174 widened to 4 lanes, it would likely cost $200-$300 million range to build this road. The city of Ottawa would not benefit from any economic development, especially if it is using the existing 174 corridor (river on one side, escarpment on the other). There was an offer to fund $80Million towards this project, with the balance to be paid by Ottawa and C-R. Back in 2008, then-Councillor Jellett wisely rejected this since in his opinion, the widening of the road would bring no benefit to Ottawa, while costing Ottawa taxpayers Millions

5) The city of Ottawa is spending Billions on new transportation infrastructure, the LRT will cost us taxpayers over $1Billion after the province and the Feds pay their share. The improvements to 174 are easily $300Million, etc etc.. Orleans has over 20% transit use, and the goal is to hit 40% by 2031. Why are we spending all this time and money on public transit if the result simply is to open up the roads to outside commuters with cars who are attracted to cheaper real estate outside the city's boundaries. What we are essentially creating is a Secondary Greenbelt.

There is a tradeoff for cheap real estate, and the city of Ottawa should not bear this cost, simply put
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #171  
Old Posted Jun 4, 2013, 2:59 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 11,872
Quote:
Originally Posted by DubberDom View Post
To clarify some of the points made here

1) The suggestion to install a Toll at Canaan Road is actually mine, I brought it forward about 18 months ago, it was shot down by Blais's office, but it seems that he's had a change of heart (no pun intended!), and whereas he used to be very supportive of Rockland people, probably because he had visions of running provincially before his recent health problems in a riding that would also includes Clarence-Rockland (C-R), this is no longer the case.

2) The toll Option is a viable threat to C-R, and would likely not be implemented, but the threat of the toll is the catalyst needed to draw attention to this problem east of Trim Rd. This is a problem that should not be the responsibility of the City of Ottawa to deal with, recent traffic survey has peak hourly AM traffic from Rockland at 1200 cars/hour, which means 1 car every 3 seconds. The city of C-R needs to address its commuter problem, perhaps with more public transit through greater subsidies of to CRT Commuter Bus service, car pool incentives etc... This is the likely outcome

3) There is an Environmental Assessment currently underway for the widening of the 174 from Rockland to the slit, 2 lane from Rockland to Jeanne d'Arc, and 3 Lanes further west. They are also considering a secondary option east of Trim of a new southern route utilizing the Innes Road corridors and an already reserved corridor south of Rockland. The reality is that the current alignment of the 174 is not well suited for 4 lanes, it would not bring any economic benefit to the City and it would be an environmental nightmare due to its proximity along the river. It would also basically destroy the village of Cumberland (which is in Ottawa)

4) Assuming a new road is approved, or the 174 widened to 4 lanes, it would likely cost $200-$300 million range to build this road. The city of Ottawa would not benefit from any economic development, especially if it is using the existing 174 corridor (river on one side, escarpment on the other). There was an offer to fund $80Million towards this project, with the balance to be paid by Ottawa and C-R. Back in 2008, then-Councillor Jellett wisely rejected this since in his opinion, the widening of the road would bring no benefit to Ottawa, while costing Ottawa taxpayers Millions

5) The city of Ottawa is spending Billions on new transportation infrastructure, the LRT will cost us taxpayers over $1Billion after the province and the Feds pay their share. The improvements to 174 are easily $300Million, etc etc.. Orleans has over 20% transit use, and the goal is to hit 40% by 2031. Why are we spending all this time and money on public transit if the result simply is to open up the roads to outside commuters with cars who are attracted to cheaper real estate outside the city's boundaries. What we are essentially creating is a Secondary Greenbelt.

There is a tradeoff for cheap real estate, and the city of Ottawa should not bear this cost, simply put
Excellent assessment of the situation and a real dilemma. I have said it before that this is a reflection of the stupidity when the Harris government downloaded Highway 17 to the municipalities. Now we have municipalities at financial odds against each other with no easy solutions.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #172  
Old Posted Jun 4, 2013, 3:32 PM
DubberDom DubberDom is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
Excellent assessment of the situation and a real dilemma. I have said it before that this is a reflection of the stupidity when the Harris government downloaded Highway 17 to the municipalities. Now we have municipalities at financial odds against each other with no easy solutions.
Re-uploading of the responsibility of the 174 (or a new route East of Orleans to Rockland) back to the province is a probable outcome of this Toll threat, this is leverage for the city.

I can't believe how many people inside Ottawa object to this, I wonder how they will feel when Ottawa Taxpayers will foot a $200Million bill to build a 4-lane road to Rockland?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #173  
Old Posted Jun 4, 2013, 4:36 PM
J.OT13's Avatar
J.OT13 J.OT13 is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 24,024
The province should take back responsibilities of the 174, but even if it doesn't, they should pay 2/3 of the widening, and the feds the other 1/3, since it effects two municipalities, (remember, the fact that the ORT only goes through 1 municipality was there big reason why it was only 1/3 funding, although before amalgamation, it would have affected two on phase 1 and three with phase 2).

If it is at all possible, I would like to see the ORT extended to Rockland, providing they pay their fare share of capital and operations cost. Although again, according to the provinces formula, we shouldn't have to pay any capital costs since it affects more than one municipality.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #174  
Old Posted Jun 4, 2013, 11:28 PM
eternallyme eternallyme is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 5,243
I do agree that the current 174 route is not very suitable for upgrades. An improved Frank Kenny-Trim corridor, combined with Innes Road, would provide a much more suitable route. Maybe that should be provincial, while existing 174 remain municipal as a lower-standard parkway.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #175  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2013, 2:41 PM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is offline
Unapologetic Occidental
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Province 2, Canadian Empire
Posts: 68,143
On Radio-Canada this morning they mentioned that Jim Watson, in addition to the LRT plan that got all the attention, announced a widening project for tthe 174. They didn't say much more though. Anyone hear anything on this?
__________________
The Last Word.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #176  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2013, 2:50 PM
c_speed3108 c_speed3108 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,808
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
On Radio-Canada this morning they mentioned that Jim Watson, in addition to the LRT plan that got all the attention, announced a widening project for tthe 174. They didn't say much more though. Anyone hear anything on this?
I gathered the general idea was that once LRT is built to Orleans, the present bus lanes could be converted to regular traffic lanes with a bit of reconfiguration around interchanges. Basically widening the highway almost for free.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #177  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2013, 2:54 PM
Capital Shaun Capital Shaun is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 860
Quote:
Originally Posted by c_speed3108 View Post
I gathered the general idea was that once LRT is built to Orleans, the present bus lanes could be converted to regular traffic lanes with a bit of reconfiguration around interchanges. Basically widening the highway almost for free.
That's also what I assumed.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #178  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2013, 3:33 PM
NOWINYOW NOWINYOW is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by c_speed3108 View Post
Basically widening the highway almost for free.
Nothing in life is free, and certainly none of these added lanes are free. The money was spent via another project, but you can be sure of one thing. The money spent has not yet been paid back and we're all now paying interest on that money. Be the money municipal, provincial or federal.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #179  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2013, 5:48 PM
gjhall's Avatar
gjhall gjhall is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 1,297
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOWINYOW View Post
Nothing in life is free, and certainly none of these added lanes are free. The money was spent via another project, but you can be sure of one thing. The money spent has not yet been paid back and we're all now paying interest on that money. Be the money municipal, provincial or federal.
May not be free, but it's a sunk cost.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #180  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2013, 11:36 PM
Ottawa superman Ottawa superman is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by eternallyme View Post
Here's an idea: let Ottawa annex Clarence-Rockland? These municipal wars need to stop. Stephen Blais especially seems to have a total hatred on that community.
Can't see Prescott-Russell accepting that. You just took their most populated city.

Quote:
Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
Doesn't that usually mean 100% upper level government funding (2/3 Provincial, 1/3 federal)? Or does that only apply to the GTA?
What does mean? Queens Park and Ottawa certainly aren't paying for Gardiner and Don Valley.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Ontario > Ottawa-Gatineau > Transportation
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 8:37 AM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.